Roger
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Posts posted by Roger
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Maxx and Bullfrog trying to be big league.....This is good. They need to start with making a better tub. Get the fit and finish right first. Then send out the shills.
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Just let the sun do it's thing. Most important keep all the snow cleared real good around the tub where you walk. If it still gets icy use a rug for when you get out and bring it inside with you after.
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Gimmicky sales pitch. Arctic used fully customizable for a long time also. Go sell some bullfrogs.
By the way I saw a 2013 at Sundance Spas of Minnesota in Lakeville. Looked OK. Nothing special. Had a long talk with the owner. He sells several others that have more power and a better feel. He's only sold a few extra jet packs.
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The Sundance is probably too pricey and we don't have a Marquia dealer in the area. I just saw the dimension one spas. I can get a 2011 model from the Home series - the Sojourn - for what I think is a great price...$6500. I think the shoulder/neck pillow jets look great. Unfortunately can't wet test but it looks and fits well dry.
Thoughts? Powerful jets?
A brand new Sojourn in 2011 should of sold for close to that price. I am not sure thats a very good deal for a 2-3 year old one. D1 Home series is just like Caldera Vacanza series or the Jacuzzi 200 or the Sundance 600 series. They are going to use name recognition while making a cheaper spa with not the same jetting or warranty/parts they used to earn the name in the first place.
The Caldera tub you talking about is going to use mostly small non adjustable jets that I wouldn't consider incredibly therapeutic, but give it a try for yourself...maybe you did and you like it. I do like their higher end but I get you have a budget restraint and they probably don't have anything in that price range.
See how low you can get an Aurora II from D1 for, and wet test that one...that thing rocks pretty well and would meet size needs. I recently worked in San Antonio for a dealer selling both Caldera and Vita and I used a couple spas and liked the Prestige better then the Moreno they had filled...maybe see if there is a Vita dealer near by, those jets were pretty awesome and would be close to price and size you need. Too bad no Marquis. I do like Bullfrogs even though most people hate them because they are different. But I would recommend wet testing exact model and jet packs you get...I have heard their new jetpack system ruined all their water pressure but I dont know that to be true yet.
I agree with this post. I also think Marquis along with D1 are unmatched in the power category. Hot Springs also seemed underpowered to me. But everyone is different.
I'm the one MH is talking about on the Bullfrog. Gimicy, worth nothing to improve longevity, energy efficiency or quality. While I don't hate them as certain people say, and do think they have a decent tub. As I have said many times. There are better options out there. But call it hate if you want.
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Or you let the snow pile up against the side and settle into the bottom where it rots framing material. There are bunches of ways for moisture to infiltrate a poorly sealed cabinet.
Maxx my competition! LOL No Problem milhi, Maxx is competition to Master Spa and Cal Spa. They might care, but I don't like those brands either. The same quality issues.
Like I said they failed in Northern Minnesota. That says enough.
I am the Fleet/Equipment Division Manager for Jamar Company in Duluth Minnesota. Google it.
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Yep, neglected tubs go to s*** very quickly. I have disposed of less than 10 year old tubs with rotted wood in the frame. But a poorly placed, neglected tub will go to S*** no matter what the frame is made of. I would of suggested the same thing if it had a metal frame.
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Have you tried the valve with the pumps off?
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At least once per week we are replacing an older tub with a new tub. Many if not most of the older wooden tubs are falling apart. Especially if they had a leak and the foam got saturated and held the moisture next to the wood. They literally fall apart. It's not just the cheap ones either. Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, etc... The foam also loses it's insulating value when wet. Comparing the wood in a house to the wood in a hot tub is an invalid comparison. The wood in your house is totally protected from the elements. Comparing your metal grill to a wood deck is absurd also. Your grill has 500 degree juices splattering on it. It heats up and cools down rather quickly. Also, a well made metal grill will last a lot longer than a cheap one.
Additionally, a deck has air flow over, under and through it to dry it out. A hot tub's frame does not have the same ability to dry once wet. If you never get a leak and you have a plastic base, you may be ok.
Just my 2 cents, not trying to be combative.
No one said wood didn't rot. I've disposed of plenty of rotted wood framed tubs. 15-20 years outside will do that. Good thing there's plenty of airflow inside a Maxx cabinet.
I use a Weber Performer.
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Lol love it.
Hey rodger Maax uses 4" insulation and insulation under the top lip. Was happy you got to learn something today by hanging around on this board. I get much more real life experience so pretty sure only thing ill learn on here would be from chem geek...and I've been on here for years, just didnt post for a long time and forgot old log in.
I know other companies besides bullfrog use synthetic structures like Clearwater, strong and maybe a couple others but its early am cant think...I don't like Clearwater shells and they are both what you would call poorly engineered jetted tub. So I preferred not mentioning.
I have always said the frame shouldn't be a final decision so yes I like arctic, sure I'd prefer if they left wood and went synthetic or steel.
Funny i own a service company and never once seen a steel frame like you have...calling bs.
"Worked on a lot of tubs for a lot of dealers" I guess this doesn't qualify as real life? Oh well. I like how you try and build up your experience and knock down anyone else. It truly shows that you have a bit of insecurity when called out. I could estimate how many tubs I have worked on because I used to keep a log for the 10 through 15th or so year I did it. Now it's a part time gig but it was 100's per year for a stretch.
No one needs to move away from wood as a framing material. Steel WILL NOT improve the strength or longevity of the frame on a hot tub. The thin steel used in hot tub framing will rust before treated wood will rot. This is not "new technology" that is not going to change the industry as you state. It is nothing more than something those who sell it use as a sales pitch.
I challenge anyone here to go to a lumber yard and make your own comparison. Look at a metal wall stud versus a wood wall stud. See if a sales guy hyping steel as new technology will give you the gauge of the steel in their line of hot tubs and then make your own informed decision. Some company's do use thin 1x2 wood that are very cheaply stapled together for framing. These should be avoided (box stores and some other brands) Company's that use treated lumber on the bottom and have a good frame warranty, the frame will outlive the tub. Customers who are setting their tub in a very wet location should avoid metal and wood.
Neither argument here are new technology. Steel versus wood is neither new technology or an advantage. They will both work fine for the framing structure of a hot tub. This should not be a decision point in anyone's decision. Thermal pane style insulation is neither new technology or an advantage. It has been proven through skewed "independent testing" that it can be almost as good as full foam if done right. This is where it gets tricky for consumers but anyone with half a brain that knows a little bit about insulation can figure it out by opening the side panels on the brand they choose.
And people who tout either as superior are skewed by the brands they are trying to sell. Especially if they are calling it "New Technology"
Come on Mile High......give us some true "new technology" Maybe in some engineering of plumbing or maybe from Waterway in a new jet that can make GPM feel different. Or a heater that uses BTU more efficiently, or a pump that moves more water with less $$
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hmmmmmmm, I may be WAY off. Just found something that says "0.02 BTU is needed to raise 1 cu ft of air 1 degree".
That would mean that 1 BTU will raise 50 cubic feet of air 1 degree.
1 BTU will also raise 1 pound of water 1 degree.
So, 1 pound of water is equal to 50 cubic feet of air
300 gallons of water weighs 2500 pounds.
2500 times 50 = 125,000
It takes the same energy to heat 300 gallons of water as it does 125,000 cubic feet of air.
This roughly equals a 10k square foot home.
My math is seriously off somewhere :-)
Come ooooooonnnn end of the day, I'm ready for a beer.
OMG my head hurts...............stop it. Motor heat is important to efficiency, it can be used. Venting for cooling to protect motors and a completely sealed cabinet when it's cold out. thermostatically controlled. There was this jerk in Colorado that truly did have the right idea. But he was such a...............
noarctic, Arctic sprays foam up under the lip of the tub from the inside (the tub is actually flipped upside down to do this) yes there is no where near 4 inches up there because there isn't room for 4 inches of foam. But look at how MAXX handles that area, they don't.
Cool...it's funny you say you're a plumber from northern Minnesota but you argue like you know the history of jacuzzi and your not actually selling tubs. I will double check with people who worked for them during merger for my own knowledge but who cares, i was saying they dont have this incredibly long track record of quality product. My point was they aren't far off in quality and I like newer technology in tubs. Having seen wood framing rot and fall apart I am under the opinion steel will last longer (which seeing steel framing is newer then wood that qualifies as newer technology then wood, just like bullfrog using plastic framing) and apparently you feel differently. I am also under the opinion spray foam is over hyped and companies like arctic and Maax are correct in finding efficient ways around it...again you disagree. Oh well...good luck tj. Again my advice from beginning is go with a reputable dealer, wet test when in doubt and if the dealer is willing to stake their reputation on the line it has probably preformed well enough to keep selling and hopefully getting referrals. Maybe if you have doubts about the Maax because people like rodger don't welcome anything new, ask for customer referrals and ask them what they think and their experiences.
There's other company's using composite/plastic framing besides bullfrog.
Hang around these boards for 10-15 years and a bunch of dealers and work on and see a lot of tubs and you learn a lot. Duh, smartical.
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hmmmmmmm, I may be WAY off. Just found something that says "0.02 BTU is needed to raise 1 cu ft of air 1 degree".
That would mean that 1 BTU will raise 50 cubic feet of air 1 degree.
1 BTU will also raise 1 pound of water 1 degree.
So, 1 pound of water is equal to 50 cubic feet of air
300 gallons of water weighs 2500 pounds.
2500 times 50 = 125,000
It takes the same energy to heat 300 gallons of water as it does 125,000 cubic feet of air.
This roughly equals a 10k square foot home.
My math is seriously off somewhere :-)
Come ooooooonnnn end of the day, I'm ready for a beer.
OMG my head hurts...............stop it.
noarctic, Arctic sprays foam up under the lip of the tub from the inside (the tub is actually flipped upside down to do this) yes there is no where near 4 inches up there because there isn't room for 4 inches of foam. But look at how MAXX handles that area, they don't.
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Cool...it's funny you say you're a plumber from northern Minnesota but you argue like you know the history of jacuzzi and your not actually selling tubs. I will double check with people who worked for them during merger for my own knowledge but who cares, i was saying they dont have this incredibly long track record of quality product. My point was they aren't far off in quality and I like newer technology in tubs. Having seen wood framing rot and fall apart I am under the opinion steel will last longer (which seeing steel framing is newer then wood that qualifies as newer technology then wood, just like bullfrog using plastic framing) and apparently you feel differently. I am also under the opinion spray foam is over hyped and companies like arctic and Maax are correct in finding efficient ways around it...again you disagree. Oh well...good luck tj. Again my advice from beginning is go with a reputable dealer, wet test when in doubt and if the dealer is willing to stake their reputation on the line it has probably preformed well enough to keep selling and hopefully getting referrals. Maybe if you have doubts about the Maax because people like rodger don't welcome anything new, ask for customer referrals and ask them what they think and their experiences.
Having seen metal frames rust and rivets get loose and fall apart and having seen poorly insulated tubs use 2-3 times more electricity than fully foamed in tubs. Your right, if that's new technology I am against it.
Don't keep saying I am against Arctic though, you keep doing that. They are getting it closer than any other company and build a fine tub. It's funny your hyping them, they have a wood frame??? And I am not sure why you keep comparing 2 inch poorly laid out crappy insulation blankets like Maxx to Arctics up to 4 inch sprayed on foam insulation. There is no comparison there, so for the sake of an OK tub quit doing it. Your offending the Arctic owners here.
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I worked for a Sundance dealer at time Jacuzzi made acquisition so I know exactly what Jacuzzi was before Sundance, big box store crap. Once they moved into the Sundance plant they stopped making tubs, so the "separate factory" for home depot is wrong and I'm not surprised you are wrong about that.
Why are boats made of metal if wood is so superior? I don't think either of us know about swamps but I know the boats they put on them are metal...I also know that the metal framing in a Maax outdoes the 2x2 stapled together stuff you defending and if you visit behind almost any hot tub shop or warehouse my point proven.
So in your opinion all wood frame tubs have 2x2 framing?
I worked for a Sundance dealer at time Jacuzzi made acquisition so I know exactly what Jacuzzi was before Sundance, big box store crap. Once they moved into the Sundance plant they stopped making tubs, so the "separate factory" for home depot is wrong and I'm not surprised you are wrong about that.
Why are boats made of metal if wood is so superior? I don't think either of us know about swamps but I know the boats they put on them are metal...I also know that the metal framing in a Maax outdoes the 2x2 stapled together stuff you defending and if you visit behind almost any hot tub shop or warehouse my point proven.
I did not say wood was superior. I said Metal is not superior and nothing but hype. You need to get your facts straight.
Yes they did both at the same time but comparing the Home Depot sold tubs to the Jacuzzi Premium line is ridiculous. And wrong....still
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I worked for a Sundance dealer at time Jacuzzi made acquisition so I know exactly what Jacuzzi was before Sundance, big box store crap. Once they moved into the Sundance plant they stopped making tubs, so the "separate factory" for home depot is wrong and I'm not surprised you are wrong about that.
Why are boats made of metal if wood is so superior? I don't think either of us know about swamps but I know the boats they put on them are metal...I also know that the metal framing in a Maax outdoes the 2x2 stapled together stuff you defending and if you visit behind almost any hot tub shop or warehouse my point proven.
So in your opinion all wood frame tubs have 2x2 framing?
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He is wrong about a lot of things in his last post. I think Arctic makes a fine tub. Overpriced and over hyped but they are close to getting the insulation conversion right. I think Maxx isn't even close to doing it right. New technology is one thing. Skimping on insulation and calling it new technology is another.
People who hype metal over wood and call it new technology are funny. Metal is not new technology it is very old technology and has no advantage in the construction industry other than a higher fire rating. If having a higher fire rating in a hot tub is important and considered new technology?? Take a 2x4 and put it in the swamp. Take a piece of 16 gauge channel and put it in the swamp and see which rots/rusts quicker. Hype my friend. Ra Ra Ra we use steel in our hot tubs because it's steel not wood. People need to understand that this steel is not an I Beam or channel iron or angle iron. This is thin gauge engineer steel stud material that is bendable with your fingers and designed to hold a load in one direction. Set one of each on the ground and stand on it. The wood won't move but you will crush the steel.
This is what you call new technology?
I'm not surprised you think every tub leaks selling the likes of Cal, Maxx, Arctic
Oh and by the way the Jacuzzi sold at Home Depot was made in a different factory and made to fit a price point specifically for Home Depot. I'm surprised a pro like you didn't know that?
And for the record as I said before there are better choices than Jacuzzi IMO. Just not Maxx or Cal. Maybe Arctic.
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There's no tie. He sells Maxx so has his manufacturer to support. I could care less which brand you get and just don't think Maxx is one of the best brands out there based on my experience. In Northern Minnesota we are very frugal if you don't sell a hardy, efficient brand you don't last as a business. Jacuzzi has survived. So if those are your choices........
The quantity of jets means squat in how a tub feels. A poorly engineered tub with 75 jets will not compete with a properly engineered tub with 25. There are literally 100's of different styles of jets and 5 on one may not feel as good as 1 of another. There's only one way to tell how a tub feels and your doing that.
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I love new technology that works. But if it's just hype then no, your right.
The deck has never been touched.
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I'm pretty sure the tubs I see Breckenridge and other mountain towns are subject to enough snow and cold weather to justify my point.
We average 50-70 calls per week and 10+ are digging foam. Some more severe then others... we also average 2-3 in shop replumbs every month... we also get bad rodent problems in foam. I've never met a service tech in my life that wasn't jaded to foam.... weird.
I'm not surprised you think those mountain towns are cold. I have a hot knife that uses a wire to cut closed or open cell foam like butter so.......I can't believe your techs haven't discovered it.
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Lol markee, why not open the entire front? That's a picture of a dealer ripping apart the front to run 110v to turn on lights and maybe stereo. Your picture is a picture of your equipment pack. How many inches of insulation down the sidewalls does the spirit have...keep in mind framing and plumbing take up space...maybe 2-4 inches? You get the same or more thickness of insulation on a Maax. Do I need to post pictures of marquis on their side ripping out foam? Don't worry I won't because I'm not going to try and scare people from buying your tubs because they are nice and if I liked their jetting more would have been in MY tier 1. Btw I hope you aren't selling those celebrity tubs marquis came it with...just buy a Laguna bay.
Rodger the largest pool builder in Minneapolis is a Maax dealer, i dont think they would risk their reputation so they could sell poorly insulated hot tubs. I don't know about northern Minnesota but I also know the dealer in Halifax and Niagara Falls Canada that tell me their customers don't notice much change in electric bill. Guess growing up with sundance and thinking nothing could touch them then going out on my own i try to teach customers i talk to their plenty of good brands...it's unfortunate that some of the older traditional companies can't help but bad mouth the ones with newer techniques. If you really do service, you must be sick to death of ripping out foam like i am?
About 1 in 100 repairs are in the foam so no, not sick of it at all it just doesn't happen that often. And of the times it does happen it's usual 15-20 year old tub. Customer wants a new one. What does being the largest pool builder in MPLS have to do with anything? Master Spa sells the most tubs in that area. I think the bad mouthing started on the other end of the conversation and most are simply disapproving. Happens all the time. With the mild weather in Halifax, Niagara and Denver I can see how insulation wouldn't matter and their electric bills wouldn't be effected. It's gets cold here. With an average temp I would guess about half of the city's you listed including Nova Scotia
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Rodger I am very confused...you are worried about steel framing rivets and not the staples that hold together wood framing? Maybe I just have more experience with older tubs then you...but have you not ever seen tubs (including jacuzzi) falling apart at the frame while trying to transport them? I have a jacuzzi at my shop from 99 i am rebuilding the frame on as the entire spa looks warped, same with a 2003 marquis and a late 90s cal.
Your post bashing Maax makes me think they are more of a direct competitor because I might not have more experience on this forum as you but I now know I have more real life experience and would drastically disagree. I am 6'0 220 and don't find the Maax uncomfortable or restrictive, maybe you just a much bigger guy then me. I'm going to end this conversation on the principal i don't think you have any real life experience with both products, no offense, not many people do. Me fixing and selling tubs used, as well as other things I dabble in just gives me more access to all the brands.
I am not saying jacuzzi is a bad product and not even saying Maax is better, but I am saying they are very similar in qualities and nothing I've seen from pumps, electronics, plumbing (why did jacuzzi remove all their gate valves btw? drives me nuts) shows me any differently. What jacuzzi has in aspects Maax makes up in others and vice versa.
Tj I am surprised the Maax was louder, I haven't noticed those being very loud...since their pumps are insulated and jacuzzi pumps are not that is surprising to me. You might ask the dealer if they put the insulation back in the spa after wiring? Rodger is right though...the wood is stronger then the steel...today. Just like foam is great...today....but neither last.
Your bashing wood because it's deteriorated after over 20 years?? How many 20 year old steel frames have you seen? I am on my third steel BBQ grill on the same wooden deck. I am taller than you by 4 inches and weight 10 lbs less, but it is not my complaint but customers of mine. Maybe you do have more real life experience. I have only worked on thousands of spas as a 30 year licensed plumber.
There's a difference between bashing a tub and relating my experience. I put them mediocre at best. I have disposed of 25 year old tubs with perfect foam and wood frames in them.
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Good job on your investigation.
Which ever dealer gives you the warm and fuzzys could make your decision. A good dealer can make a bad tub a good tub.
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The inside of the Maxx are messy and poorly built. The metal frame is cheap and flimsy with the possibility of loose rivets and screws prevalent. The insulation is very skimpy and you end up with a noisy, expensive to operate tub. The seats are confining and the skirt panels are cheap and meet the upper lip of the tub sloppily.
Your right they are improved from the Coleman days. But improving on junk and you have mediocre.
To the OP. Don't be afraid to have your dealer open up the equipment bay on any tub your looking at. Grab a hold of a frame member and give it a pull. Push on the control panel and bang on a few things, kick the tires if you will. You will see how it is built.
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13 years old and not taken care of by the sounds of it. I think I would dispose of it.
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Trust me if another manufacturer thought that the jet pack idea was worth what Bullfrog hypes it, there are ways to make interchangeable jets on a hot tub that could be very very close to the same. But the concept is nothing but sales.
Here's our new "Changeable Hydrotherapy Panel." Just slip out the existing panel and slide in a new panel with a completely different jetting package.
Hot Tub Rash!
in Portable Hot Tubs & Spas
Posted
Yea, a doctor first and give us your water balance numbers and also your sanitizer routine.