waterbear
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Posts posted by waterbear
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On 7/25/2021 at 7:35 PM, RDspaguy said:
And bromine cannot be stabilized so will deplete significantly from sunlight/uv.
not quite true. If you are doing 2 step bromine it cannot be stabilized but bromine tabs, because of the dimethylhydantoin, are somewhat stabilized, just not to the extent that chlorine can be stabilized.
1 hour ago, Jigstick said:I’m confused as to why you need a bromine floater if you have a bank built up.
It maintains the bromine levels once the floater is adjusted and the it also helps maintain the bromide reserve because of the dimtehylhydantion added by the tabs, Shocking is not needed daily to maintain the bromine level. 2 step and 1 step bromine products usually require daily additions to keep the water from going south. 3 step (with a floater) is basically "set and forget" and really only needs shocking after heavy use or if the water is cloudy or has other issues.
This might help:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/
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22 hours ago, Mchristo said:
Looks like that Taylor 2006 kit does more tests than my tpoolmaster kit so I will pick it up.
It also allowed more precise , and wider range free chlorine and directly tests combined chlorine instead of testing total chlorine and using math to find the combined chlorine (FAS-DPD test method vs DPD test method), is less sensitive to inaccurate pH and TA readings because of high sanitizer levels. PoolMaster is an OK kit but has many limitations when compared to the Taylor kits.
22 hours ago, Mchristo said:Is the aquachek test strips the most reliable salt test?
It's certainly the most fool proof for home users. It measures chloride ions, as does the Taylor kit. The problem with the Taylor kit is many people overshoot the endpoint and get a high reading. Chloride ion tests will never agree with conductivity tests such as your salt cell or a stand alone electronic salinity meter since they are measuring different things but they should be in the ballpark. Conductivity measurements by your salt cell can be affected by the amount of scale buildup on the cell, the age of the cell, the pH of the water, etc. Salt meters need to be calibrated regularly and the electrode has to be replaced on a regular schedule wither the meter is used or not.
IF the meter is properly cared for (and it's not a cheap one, good ones are well over $100) then I would rank that as best, followed by a properly done chemical test (Taylor has better precision +/- 200 ppm, while the strips have a more logarithmic scale.
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23 hours ago, j_jones said:
The fact that it is utterly odorless suggests it's not biological.
no. not necessarily true.
Please post a full set of test results and how they ere obtained. m
Free Chlorine, Total Chlorine, Combined Chlorine (don't need all three, Free Chlorine and either total or combined chlorine is ok) pH, Total Alkalinity, Calcium Hardness (NOT total hardness), Cyanuric Acid (CYA, stabilizer).
Also how the results were obtained. (pool spa store with liquid reagents, a test disc put into a machine or meter, test strips, test strips put into a machine (strip reader), Home testing with liquid or tablet reagents (make and model of kit), test strips (brand), test strips or liquid or tablet reagents read in a meter (make and model).
There is a lot of variation between testing methods and some are useless. For example, strips can't measure calcium hardness, only total (calcium + magnesium) hardness,which is useless for pools and spas. Also, strips are useless for water balancing because the resolution of some of the tests are too broad (+/- 40 ppm when +/- 10 ppm or better is needed)
There is no such thing as a 'hot tub formula". Chemical dosing depends on test results to know how of to add of which chemical
23 hours ago, j_jones said:hTh chlorine granules,
Are you using the pool granules, the the pool granules ultra, or the spa granules? They have different formulations and the pool ones are based on a different chemical than the spa ones and have different interactions in the water.
23 hours ago, j_jones said:SeaKlear 'balanced shock oxidizer
This is a non chlorine shock (MPS). Usually it's only needed when testing indicates [persistent combined chlorine over 1 ppm. Chlorine is a better choice for weekly shocking.
Bottom line, it's impossible to say what might be causing your goo problem (but we did eliminate biguinide sanitizers, which do create goo) without knowing the parameters of your water. I can tell you that this substance is NOT normal and should not be forming even with not cleaning filters for a few months. some clarifiers can cause a jelly like substance to form that collects in the filter but it is usually blueish in color. However low pH can dissolve spa parts and create a goo like substance that can collect (and it is also an indicator of damage.) Your hair conditioner is an unlikely source IF you are properly maintaining correct sanitizer levels and shocking on a regular basis. You are rinsing it out of your hair before going into the tub, correct? If not, you should.
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@Philip, you posted in a 13 year old thead. You stand a much better chance of getting an answer if you start a new thead and ask your questoin.
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@KyleB, you posted in a 6 year old thread. You have a much better chance of getting a reply if you start a new thread and describe your problem.
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You might want to consider purchasing a Taylor K-2006 kit and test your own water. Check Amazon and online retailers for best price.This kit will make lowering TA easy. Don't get the K-2005 even though it's a bit cheaper. The DPD testing method for chlorine has many limitation when compared to the FAS-DPD testing method in the K-2006.
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On 7/14/2023 at 12:02 AM, Mchristo said:
I’m sorry I don’t know the system they use for testing. They take a small siringe of water from my sample and inject it into a disk in a small machine. That machine is plugged into their computer and it gives the numbers and the printout.
LaMotte Waterlink Spin Touch Disc. Actually a very reliable system (when regularly cleaned and calibrated or results will be off) with a few limitations on some of the tests, notably CYA (it can read low under certain conditions depending on temperature), salt (will give inaccurate reading if water temperature is not between 68 deg F - 76 deg F), calcium harness (limitation of colorimetric test vs titration), total alkalinity (limitation of colorimetric test vs titration). (I went through LaMotte water testing training when I worked in the retail end of the industry and received their certification). HOWEVER, the Waterlink software is designed to sell product and the dosing recommendations don't take into account what chemicals need to be dosed separately or what order they should be applied when multiple adjustments are necessary. The dosing thresholds can also be set by the retailer, once again to increase product salts. Printouts are good for the numbers but that's about it.
On 7/14/2023 at 12:02 AM, Mchristo said:My pools sensor was bouncing between 2900 and 3200 for the past couple of days. The aquachek salt strip looks like it was at 6 which is 2780 according to the directions on the label.
salt is low. you want to get it up to about 3200-3500 ppm. Running the salt too low will damage the cell, if it has not already done so. Get your cell checked. See if the pool store can do it, not all can.
On 7/14/2023 at 12:02 AM, Mchristo said:How do I lower Total Alkalinity without lowering the PH?
You can't. Read these to learn how to properly lower TA and understand the relationship between pH and TA:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52523-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
On 7/14/2023 at 12:02 AM, Mchristo said:At about 6pm I added 80lbs of salt.
Now at 11.30pm my SWG sensor is reading 3200ppm and just now a new AquaChek salt strip is now reading 6.4 on the strip which translates to 3220ppm salt.
Check it again in 24hours to allow time for all the salt to dissolve. If you are not above 3500 ppm you are good. if you are above 4000 ppm then drain some water and add fresh. High salt is as bad as low salt and can also shorten cell life.
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Are you by any chance using a biguinide (non chlorine, non bromine) sanitizer system with a hydrogen peroxide shock? Examples: BaquaSpa, SoftSoak, Leisure Time Free Reva-Spa, etc.
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9 hours ago, RDspaguy said:
you still need an oxidizer (chlorine, mps, or bromine)
bromine is not compatible with Nature2 because of the source of silver ions. Spa Frog is since it uses a different chemical to provide the silver ions.
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9 hours ago, Mchristo said:
salmon/brick red
If it turns brick red you've gone too far. It should be a very light salmon pink color.
9 hours ago, Mchristo said:My pool builder recommends salt level at 2800-2900.
Jandy recommends 3000-3500 ppm Low salt conditions can lead to early cell failure! They also recommend CYA between 50 - 75 ppm (running it at the upper end is better so shoot for 75 ppm). Jandy also states the CYA MUST be at 75 -85 ppm when water temperatures 85 degrees F or above. Don't depend on the builder, read the manual. Pool Builders build pools, many know little about operating them or adjusting water. (Sorry if I offend any builders reading this but it's true .)
3 hours ago, Mchristo said:took another water sample to pool store. Numbers are:
free Chl 1.3, total Chl 1.5 PH 7.7, Total Alk 100 Calcium Hardness 201. Cyanuric Acid 54, phosphates 2661, SALT 2230.
How is the store testing? Strips, strips with a meter, Liquid reagents, testing disc inserted into a machine? How are they testing salt? Meter, Chemical test, strips?
12 hours ago, Mchristo said:The printout from one pool store says they have “ClearCare Expert Water Analysis System”
Is there a meter or strip reader connected to it or are they entering the numbers manually? This system is designed to sell as much product as possible, much like the Bioguard Alex system, It's basically a customer database. The dosing calculations are basic and often conflicting since the computer doesn't understand the interactions between the various readings (and the pool store employee, more likely than not, doesn't either).
Chlorine levels are low, pH is fine, TA is too high, shoot for 70 ppm, calcium hardness is low for a plaster/aggregate pool, you risk etching the surface
CYA is low. Just barfely on the lower limit.
10 hours ago, Mchristo said:Could my pool be measuring incorrectly due to all the phosphates
In a word, no. Phosphates are meaningless, just a way for the pool store to sell you product that you don't need 99% of the time.
Salt is way low. Should be about 1000 ppm higher
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Gspa, thank you for your post but this is a 3 year old thead
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4 hours ago, Northern said:
high alkalinity, and PH. Difficulty lowering Ph.
you won't be able to lower pH until you lower the TA. Read these:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
4 hours ago, Northern said:I’m trying to lower ph before adding chemical.
You need to lower TA before you try to lower the pH. Get your TA to 50-70 ppm. You will need a good test kit to do this,. strips will NOT work! I recommend the Taylor K-2006 for chlorine or the K-2106 for bromine. Check Amazon or the various online pool/spa supply stored for the best price. This is probably the most important piece of equipment you will need to maintain your spa and is worth every penny! Test strips (except for a few specialty ones like salt titrators and borate test strips) are useless and do not have the resolution needed for water balancing. Strips have a resolution (accuracy) of +/- 40 ppm or worse and to balance water you need +/- 10 ppm or better. Also, strips cannot test for calcium hardness, only total hardness which is useless for water balancing. An alternative is the LaMotte ColorQ but it has some limitations compared to the Taylor kits, IMHO and is more expensive. (FWIW, I have extensive professional experience with water testings using both Taylor and LaMotte systems, in addition to testing solutions from Hach and MyronL).
4 hours ago, Northern said:anyone know what these flakes are?
They look like calcium scale. Do they dissolve in Muriatic acid? (Vinegar is not strong enough to have an effect on scale).
What is the calcium hardness of your fill water?
Scale (which is actually a metal stain, calcium is a metal in the same family as beryllium,Magnesium, Strontium, Barium and Radium), is formed when calcium reacts with the high level of bicarbonate in the water from high TA and high pH and precipitates out as calcium carbonate scale. If your water is high in calcium and you cannot refill with soft water then you need to make sure that your TA is low and you don't let your pH climb above 8.0. Adding a metal sequestrant every 1 to 4 weeks can also help by chelating the calcium to help prevent it from precipitating out. You want one based on phosphonic acid or other phosphonates and not one based on EDTA, which is not as effective.
Posting a full set of water test results (NOT done with strips), would be useful. Are you planning to use chlorine,
I know I've given a lot info so let me make it a bit easier:
1. Get a GOOD test kit
2. Lower your TA to 50-70 ppm and then adjust pH to no lower than 7.6 and make sure you drop it back to 7.6 when it hits 8.0 (Link above)
IF your calcium hardness is above 400 ppm the add a metal sequestrant if you don't have an option to refill with softer water.
If you are going to use chlorine the best method is dichlor/bleach. If you are going to use bromine I would strongly suggest 3 step bromine. If you are going to use silver/mps (Nature 2) or silver/chlorine (Nature2, Frog@ease) or silver/bromine (Frog Serene) or other "mineral' sanitizer system be aware that the very low levels of chloirne or bromine used with these systems can often lead to water quality going south fast.
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Perhaps a slightly smaller fiberglass pool could be installed.
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8 hours ago, TiGuy said:
tried uploading. keeps failing.
files are probably too big. try decreasing the size before uploading.
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7 hours ago, cpepp said:
From what I can see everything is good but it seems a touch cloudy and foams when running jets on high with aeration.
could be low calcium but more likely the spa needs to be purged.
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It is possible that your salt might be low or your cell is dying. Many people do the Taylor salt titration wrong and overshoot the endpoint. They don't stop when the sample initially turns a light salmon color and continue past the endpoint giving a higher salt reading than it actiua;;u. I would recommend getting some AqiuaChek salt test striips to double check. How were the pool stores testing for salt?
Salt readings on SWGCs can also be inaccurate. They are measuring the conductivity of the water but other ions besides sodium and chloride can also affect conductivity.
11 hours ago, Mchristo said:On my pool panel I’ve seen intermittent error code 121 as well
This is low current in the reverse direction, it can mean cell failure, a dirty cell, or low salt.
What is your pH and CYA?
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7 hours ago, cpepp said:
Here are my latest readings from a test strip.
attachments unavailable
7 hours ago, cpepp said:I suspect I should get calcium test strips?
No such thing. If you want to test calcium harness you need a kit with liquid reagents such as Taylor Technologies or LaMotte. As I aready said:
12 hours ago, waterbear said:(Note that test strips don't test calcium hardness but only test total hardness and their accuracy of =/- 40 ppm for this test is useless for balancing water)
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this machine does not read alkalinity or hardness, You need a chemical test for those. It gives you readings for pH, ORP (which roughly translates into sanitizer activity), total dissolved solids (basically a useless measurement), temperature, and chlorine/bromine ( but it does not specifiy which and it is probably derived from the ORP reading by a mathematical formula) uS/cm (microsiemens/centimeter) is a measure of electrical conductivity and is used to determine TDS and or salinity by mathematical formulas.
My advice is to return it if you can since the ORP and bromine readings are not to be trusted with the frog ease system, you have no use for TDS and conductivity readings, and pH meters are trouble and need to be calibrated regularly and the pH and ORP electrodes need to be replaced on a regular basis. If this meter does not allow for that it's junk. Get a Taylor Technologies K-2106 or a LaMotte Color Q so you can test your total alkalinity and calcium hardness (Note that test strips don't test calcium hardness but only test total hardness and their accuracy of =/- 40 ppm for this test is useless for balancing water)
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Read this:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/
On 6/17/2023 at 2:30 AM, seb101 said:after giving the tub a dose of bromine that should have sent it through the roof the strips were still reading 1-2ppm. Seems these strips just don’t work properly witsorryh bromine (despite stating it on the packaging).
were the color blocks for these strips shads of pink and red? If so they are using DPD reagent and are bleaching out due to high bromine levels.
On 6/17/2023 at 2:30 AM, seb101 said:I got some new strips and they are showing levels consistent with my dosing.
Are the color blocks on these strips in the yellow/green range or blue/purple? Different testing reagents less prone to bleachout
On 6/17/2023 at 2:30 AM, seb101 said:The faulty strips were also putting my water hardness at over 1000ppm whereas on the new strips it measures 200-300ppm
.Strips can only test total hardness (calcium + magnesium) but you are only interested in calcium hardness. No strip will give you useful info for balancing water. You need a different method of testing to do this. Also, as you have seen, the total hardness test is not very accurate (reporting the acutal value, not is it very precise (+/- 40 ppm, which is the usual range for strips, is usless for balancing water. You need +/- 10 ppm or better.
On 6/16/2023 at 6:02 AM, seb101 said:PH and TA tend to deviate low, but I routinely correct this
You shouldn't have to, Set your TA to 50-70 ppm. Sorry, strips don't have the precision to do this. You need a better testing method. Read this:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
On 6/17/2023 at 2:30 AM, seb101 said:Out of interest, how do others test their test strips?
I don't use strips. I used a drop based testing method that employs color matching and titrations. The Taylor Technologies kit that I use is not available in the UK to the best of my kowledge but there are good alternative from LaMotte and Hach.
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On 6/23/2023 at 3:06 PM, Eli2295 said:
The water at my house has very high alkalinity and average Ph so hard to balance the alkalinity well.
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
As far as the form goes I would also think that biofilms are the problem since you are using nature 2. I would also recommend ;purging the spa.
The orange color could be iron. Are you filling with well water?
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Post a full set of test results please. It's impossible to tell you what you need if you don't tell us your water parameters first.
How many gallons is your pool? How are you chlorinating? (trichlor, dichlor, sodium hypololirite, bleach, calcium hypochlorite, SWCG)
Why did your calcium rise so high? What is the calcium hardness of your fill water. Are you using cal hypo for chlrinatoin or shocking (cal hypo, calcium hypochlorite adds 7 ppm calcium for every 10 ppm chlorine added.
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Gaskets wear out and do need to be replaced periodically. Constant contact with hot water and oxidizing sanitizers will takes its toll.
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Your CYA is too low. Get it up to 30 or 40 ppm. When CYA is low UV from sunlight will destroy your FC and allow algae to grow. This is why we put CYA into the water. If your pool is not vinyl or fiberglass your calcium is WAY too low and you risk etching of plaster and aggregate pool surfaces.
Your pH is WAY too high and should be lowered to around 7.6 to 7.8. Have you tried shocking the pool (add enough cal hypo or bleach to get your FC to 15 ppm and keep it there until the water clears).
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What is your pH? Please post a full set of test results and how they were done (strips, liquid reagents, meter that reads strips or reagents, etc). We really can't tell anything unless we know all the water parameters. pH can cause interference with bromine and chlorine readings and, depending on how you are testing, the regents might be able to avoid some of the interference or not. Also, how much MPS did you add. MPS will also make bromine read high unless you have a liqiud reagent test kit that had a MPS interference reagent and follow special testing procedures. If you have an ozonator and there is residual ozone in your water that will also cause bromine to test higher than it is.
Finally, MPS is an oxidizer and it will oxide bromide into bromine sanitizer if you have established a bromide reserve in the water and you are seeing the effects of shocking the tub.
This post might help explain a bit about bromine chemistry to help you understand what is gong on in your water:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/
Frustrated with new Spa
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
@Jigstick Missed this before, this is a one step bromine product that is mostly chlorine, it needs to be used for several weeks to build up a bromide reserve in the water. Reading this might help:
https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/