waterbear

Two things about the pH. First, do NOT try to test pH when bromiine levels are high. High sanitizer levels will interfere with the pH reagent chemically and cause it to read high when it is not. Second, rising pH is a problem with both bromine generators and salt water chlorine generators. The reason is the same for both. In addition to producing sanitizer the unit is alos producing hydrogen gas which is aerating your water (along with your bubblers and jets) If you have a high TA this will cause a lot of carbon dioxide to gas out of your water and cause your pH to rise. Your spa is carbonated. That is what TA is...carbonates, bicarbonates, and carbonic acid in the water. This carbonation will help keep the pH from dropping when using acidic santizers like bromine tabs and MPS shock (all the non clorine shocks that are used in spas are MPS--postassium monopersulfate). Generated bromine or chlorine is NOT acidic so you do not need a high total alkalinity to offset the pH drop from the sanitizer. Carbonic acid is just carbon dioxide dissolved in the water, think seltzer. If you aearate the water (think shaking up a bottle of seltzer to make it go flat) you drive out the carbon dioxide and the pH rises since you have reduced the amount of carbonic acid in the water. By keeping your TA on the low end (around 80-90 ppm) and keeping your pH at 7.6 or slightly higher you can mimimize this effect. Aslo by introducing 30-50 ppm borates into the water (with a product such as Proteam's Gentle Spa) you introduce a secondary boric acid/borate buffer system that will help stabilize the pH. Also realize that bromine cannot be stabilized aganst loss from UV light like chlorine can so if you spa is getting any sun exposure the bromine will be burnt off in a very short time and you will have to run the generator output at a very high level which will lead to a faster pH rise. Try to keep the spa covered unless it is actually in use. This will help. IF my memory serves me correctly Boost is a 'one step' bromine system that contains sodium bromide and dichlor ( a form of chlorine) to oxidize the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid, your active bromine sanitizer. With the Genesis bromine generators I believe that you are only supposed to add plain sodium bromide to the water to a level of around 2500 ppm and only shock with MPS if needed. Sodium bromide can get consumed in a bromine system by being oxidized to bromates. Once this happens it is essentially 'dead' as far as generating bromine. This is also why conventional bromine systems do need to be drained and refilled every so often. If you have ozone you are speeding up how fast the bromates are forming in your water.

Free chlorine test is not valid for bromine. You have no chlorine in the water. It's all converted into hypobromous acid when it reacts with the sodium bromide. You are only interested in total bromine. Free bromine is not an important measurement. Bromine levels will be 2 times the chlorine reading anyway so your 1.8 chlorine reading x 2 is 3.6 and since you are using strips this is within the accuracy of them and is essentiall the same as your 3 reading for bromine!

A bit of advice. Stop using test strips. They are ok for a quick daily check on chlorine levels but are pretty useless for anything else. Total hardness is not really very valuable for a pool and all strips test total hardness. You are interested in calcium hardness. CYA tests on strips are just not reliable. Get a good test kit , preferably with the FAS-DPD test for chlorine and not the DPD test. (I recommend the Taylor K-2006). You won't regret it!

orange stains are usually indicative of iron. Does your pool have a blue color? Yellow water from iron against a blue background will make the water look greenish.

How high is high? if the FC is below 10 ppm and there is not CC then you can swim. Also how high is your cyanuric acid. If the levels are high then the chlorine will not burn off quickly in sunlight (and if they are too high your chlorine is also not an effective sanitizer anymore!) Please post a full set of test results so we can tell exactly what is going on in your pool!

Before you add the borax to 50 ppm (which is what I assume you want to do) first get rid of the chlrone demand problem you have been having and get your CYA into the proper range for your SWG (60-80 ppm). When you have that done then think about adding the borates to the water!

If you would post a full set of test numbers it would help to see where your levels are. Don't use test strips, they just don't have the precision needed for water balance. For a bromine system I would recommend getting a Taylor K-2106 test kit. BTW, Brilliance has two different bromine systems. One is your standard bromine tablet that uses chloirne as as oxidizer, the other uses MPS as the oxidizer. The second one has no advantage over the first other than the marketing hype of being 'chlorine free'. As far as lowering TA, to do it accurately you will need a good test kit that can measure pH and TA. You need to drop the pH to 7.0 (lowering pH lowers the meaurable part of TA--carbonates and bicarbonates, the other part of TA is just carbonic acid which is carbon dioxide dissolved in water.--think seltzer! Your spa water is carbonated--that's what TA really is.) and then start aerating the water by turning on your air jets and bubblers. Your pH will start to rise because carbon dioxide is being outgassed--think shaking up a bottle of seltzer to make it go flat. By removing the carbon dixoide you are lowering the amount of carbonic acid so the pH rises and the carbonic acid cannot convert back to carbonates and bicarbonates. If you just raise the pH with chemicals you will convert the carbonic acid back into carbonates and bicarbonates and your TA will rise again when you test it! When the pH hits 7.6 check the TA again. Repeat this process until TA is where you want it. It might take a few to several times to do this and if your TA is very high you might not see much difference in the TA the first few times around. There is a faster way to do this but until you get the hang of testing your pH and TA I would recommend doing it this slower way. For bromine I would suggest between 100-120 ppm. Calcium is not really a concern in an acrylic spa unless it is nonexistant or very high. High calcium can lead to scale deposits. Too low and you will get a lot of foaming (soft water foams more than hard water). If your calcium is around 125 ppm or higher I would not worry about it. If it is higher than about 300 ppm you should keep very close watch on your pH or you could get scale deposits if the pH climbs above 7.6 (I'm being conservative on the pH only because many people don't check it on a daily basis.)

Bromine systems work by putting sodium bromide into the water. This is not your sanitizer. An oxidizer is also needed to convert the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid. Suitable oxidizers are chlorine, MPS, and ozone. When chlorine is used it (hypochlorous acid) is immediately converted into hypobromous acid if there is sodium bromide in the water. If there is not a reserve of sodium bromide in the water this does not happen. The test for bromine is the same as the test for chorine but they will register to different levels. MPS will also show up on the bromine test. To insure that you have a bromine system you have to add sodium bromide on filling. If you only use tablets it can take weeks for enough bromide to dissolve in the water.

A swg is NOT a source of copper in the water. (Where did you ever here that one?!) Copper usually comes from copper based algaecides (which are included in many trichlor tabs on the market today!!! ) , copper pipes and heat exchangers (when the pH gets too low), and fill water. Iron usually comes from your fill water. Metals will only show up in the water testing if they are in solution and have not stained out or precipitated and you have not added seqeusterant to deactivate them. IF you have a metal problem I would recommend a kit from Taylor or LaMotte to test for them and not strips.

Yes

Companies have always made outrageous claims for their products as long as advertising has been around. If called to the carpet then they have to back them up but until then who's gonna stop them. Just look at all the advertising on TV. Do you really believe all of it? NO. Why should an ad for a water treatment product of dubious value that doesn't tell you much about the product at all be any different. It's just a new twist on selling snake oil. Consider copper/silver systems. For many years the companies that produced them claimed they were 'chemical free', 'chlorine free', and/or 'mineral systems'. Most countries have passed legislation about these copper/silver devices that require them to be used with an approved sanitizer, in some places at normal and not reduced sanitizer levels or to be labeled as algaecides and NOT as sanitizers (Canada for example). Calling metals 'minerals' is just marketing hype. How many of us want metals in our pool? But we don't really mind having 'minerals' in our water! Makes it sound healthy and spa like! How about if we call them copper sulfate and silver nitrate (actual ingredients listed on the box of one such system, Nature2 by Zodiac). How appealing does it sound now? I can tell you about a great product ingredient called DHMO. You NEED to have this in your spa if you want to enjoy using it! Benefits of adding it include making your spa much more relaxing and enjoyable to sit in (this has been documented time after time--people always find a spa with DHMO added to me a more enjoyable experience!), it will make any chemicals you add to the spa dissolve and achieving proper water balance is impossible with out it! When you have it in your spa and your heater is on it's molecules will carry the heat of your heater throughout the spa to make your soaking experience a warm one. It is compatible with EVERY known spa sanitizer and chemical. It is normally a liqiud but can be converted easily to solid form and the solid form can actually cool your spa down if applied during the hot summer months! It is also very effective at cleaning your spa, spa cover, deck, and even your bathing suits and other clothes! You can even clean yourself with it safely! Is this sounding like something you might want ? I have not made anything up about this 'wonder spa additive". DHMO stands for dihydrogen monoxide. That is another name for water! How many bottles of it can I sell you? (For a website that talks about the 'dangers' of DHMO click this link and for one that talks about the benefiits click this one but remember it is all 'tounge in cheek'. It is a good illutration how facts can be distorted to produce the results you want and advertisers use this all the time!

Fiirst of all there is no way you can get a reading of 47 for this test. Using a view tube the accuracy is to 10 ppm! The scale on the tube is NOT linear so you can't assume that if it is slightly more than halfway it is a 7!. If it is closer to 50 than 40 call it 50 +/- 10 and be done with it! (that's how it's supposed to be done). Second, you need to let the test develop for 3-5 minutes or it will read low. Also if your water temp is above 80 degrees some of the precipitate will dissolve and read low and if it is below 70 degrees it can take longer than 3-5 minutes for the test to complete. If you read it before that it will read low. Since you are getting 50 ppm with only letting the test sit for 1 minute then I suspect that your CYA is higher than you are reporting. CYA is CYA. If it's too expensive at Leslie's get it a Walmart or Ace Hardware!

If your pool is 15k then 4 lbs CYA should be raising your pool about 34 ppm! I suspect either your pool is bigger than you think or that your testing method is incorrect. To test for CYA you put the pool water in the sample bottle to the first line, fill to the second line with reagent. Shake the bottle for 30 seconds and then let it sit for 3-5 minutes. Your water sample should be between 70-80 degrees before testing. If it's warmer or colder it can give you a false low reading. After sitting give the bottle another shake and then start dispensing it into the view tube, which should be held about waist level, until the black dot is no longer visible. I like to stand outside but not in the sun, I stand in open shade when I do this test.

Borate test kits are hard to find. Proteam makes a good, if not complicated titiration test but it is expensive. Proteam, Aquachek and LaMotte all have borate test strips that are not the easiest to read but they are inexpensive and fast and since the effective range of borates is 30-50 ppm they provide enough precision to get you in the right range. I purchase my Aquachek Borate test strips from www.diywatertesting.com They have fast shipping and decent prices.

First of all shock is a verb, not a noun. It is something you do to a pool (raising the FC levels to burn off organics and reach breakpoint), not a product you put into it. Unstabilized chlorine is usually the best thing to shock with since it won't raise cyanuric acid levels. There are three unstabilized chlorines--Sodium hypochlorite (liquid chlorine or regular unscented laundry bleach) which comes in strengths of 5.25%, 6%, 10% and 12.5% most commonly. This is the only liquid chlorine. It will not increase your calcium hardness nor cloud your pool. In granular form their are two different unstabilized chlorines. First lithium hypochlorite. It will not increase calcium hardness or cloud your pool and is very fast dissolving but it is the MOST EXPENSIVE form of chlorine to use. It's only advantage over liquid is the convenience of being granular. Second calcium hypochlorite or cal hypo. This is most commonly what is sold in the bags of 'shock'. It can also be used for normal chlorination. It is slow dissolving, raises calcium hardness, and can cause clouding of the water. It is sold in usually 43-48% , 62-68%, and in 73%. Walmart and the other 'big boxes' only sell the weaker stuff because there was a bad warehouse fire a few years back from improperly stored cal hypo! Most of your 'premium' brands are the 63-68% stuff, and there are a few that are the 73% stuff. The higher concentrations will raise a given amount of water to a higher free chlorine level for the same amount of shock. To put it another way, the lower conentration will raise about 7500 gallons to about 10 ppm FC, the higher concentrations will raise 10000 gallons to 10 ppm FC and the highest stuff will bump up that 10000 gallons another 1-2 ppm. This is why the walmart stuff is cheaper than the 'premium brand' stuff. BTW, walmart sells Aquachem, which is a Chemtura company brand. Omni is also a Chemtura company brand along with Bioguard, Hydrotech, Sun, and Pooltime (sold at Home Depot)! So the walmart stuff is made by the same company that makes Omni, it's just weaker! Dichlor (one of the two stabilized chlorines) is also sometimes sold as shock (it is very fast dissolving so it's sometime recommended for vinyl pools for this reason) but I would not recommend using it for shock. For every 1ppm of free chlorine it adds it also adds .9 ppm of cyanuric acid (stabilizer). Using dichlor for shocking raises stabilizer levels very quickly and can lead to an overstabilized pool. Hope this info is useful.

My salt levels are good. I have never been able to get the bromine level up in the year I have owned it. I would contact Pioner H2O Technologies since they are the manufacturer of the Genesis unit. I would guess the unit is defective if you know for sure that your chemical levels are good.

If I used Chlorine as a sanitizer in my spa, and had a CYA of 30ppm and a FC level of 4, then would it all burn off in the sunlight by the end of the day or do you think I'd have some left? What is the burn rate you would estimate? No way to really estimate. Depends on too many factors such as amount of sunlight it gets, number of bathers, etc. And what is the FC level I would want to maintain? With 30 PPM CYA I would keep the tub at about 6 ppm or slightly higher. Don't let it go below 4 ppm. You would probably have to add chlorine to it daily to maintain the FC level. Is your spa heated all the time or only when you use it? that would also make a difference.

I am having a very difficult time proving my bromine generator is working and knowing my hot tub is safe. I have been using AquaChek Red with the following setup: - Arctic Spa 1400 litres - GENESIS AUTOMATIC BROMINE GENERATOR (salt water system) I have adjusted all the levels as per Arctic Spa's instructions but there is no Bromine reading on my AquaChek Red test strips. I am told by my dealer that this is normal and I will just have to trust them that the Bromide is there. For the safety of my family measurements are required to prove the sanitizer is operating. Is this a true statement by my dealer? A few points you might want to explore. Aquachek makes a titrator strip to test your sodium bromide levels (very similar to their salt test strips). You might want to get some to make sure you have the correct amount of sodium bromide in your water. If it is not in the right range your unit will not function. Also, how many hours a day are you running it? Pioner H2O Technologies, the manufacturer, recommend a minimum of 4 hours a day and possbily more. It can take a few days of time for the bromine to reach levels that can be tested. Is the tub exposed to sunlight? Bromine will 'burn off' in sunlight in a a matter of about half an hour. There is really no way the genterator can keep up with this and you will be showing no bromine in the tub. If you do not have a cover on the tub you should get one if it gets any sunlight. Bromine cannot be stabilized against UV light like chlorine can. If you are not testing a residual bromine level of at least 4 ppm (6 ppm is better) then the water is NOT sanitized! Strips would certainly be able to show this level but I would suggest getting a better test kit that uses liquid reagents. They Taylor K-2106 would be my first choice but even a 'cheapie 2 way tester' for chorine/bromine and pH that uses OTO reagent (turns yellow in the presence of chlorine or bromine) is better than the strips, IMHO. IF there is any bromine (actually hypobromous acid) the test reagent WILL turn yellow! If it does not you have no bromine in the tub! I can not confirm if my system is functioning correctly or if the AquaChek Red does not detect the bromine. Regardless I am very concerned about my sanitizer levels and need guidance. Any input would be appreciated. If you are not testing any bromine in the tub then either the unit is not functioning properly, your water chemistry is off (check your sodium bromide levels and your pH!), or your bromine is being destroyed by UV light from the sun. You can try 'shocking' the tub with MPS (non chlorine shock) and wait about 30 minutes and test for bromine. If you have non at that point then there is no sodium bromide in the water. If you don't have the proper level you can't produce bormine! If you test bromine after shocking then either the unit is not functioning properly or your bromine is being burned off by the sun. If your spa is not covered and gets sun try turning the fitration system on at sundown and let it generate all night. Test in the morning. If you test bromine then you know it's working but the bromine is being destroyed. How high is your calcium. High calcium levels can cause scale to deposit on the cell and stop bromine production, even with 'self cleaning' cells such as the Genesis has. Too low a sodium bromide level and the cell won't generate, too high a sodium bromide level and the cell won't generate. You have to have this in the correct range (around 2500 ppm) for it to work properly. I believe this particular unit stops produces at a lever above 3500 ppm. I don't know the low salt cut off point.

I would adjust the floater to maintain your bromine level between shocking. The tabs will add both bromide and chlorine to the water. When you shock you want to add enough chlorine or non chlorine oxidizer to raise the bromine levels above 10 ppm but you don't have to go overboard! about 2/3 to 3/4 up of ultra bleach should do it for each 500 gallons or 3/4 to 1 cup of regular (5.25%) bleach. Remember it's a hot tub, not rocket science! I assume you are doing dilutions to test high sanitizer levels. Remember that you lose accuracy with the dilutions so you are only getting an approximate sanitizer level. DPD is not that easy to read to begin with and most men have trouble telling the shades of red apart. Women are better at it for some reason. This is one of the reasons I like the FAS-DPD test much better.

This would indicate to me that you either haven not oxidized all the ascorbic acid yet or you have some algae growing in the water. I suspect the first. Why do you 'suspect your CYA is 40-60 ppm'? Ifyou have not tested it then do so with your kit. If your CYA is below 30 ppm this could explain the chlorine loss. With your salt water generator it should be between 60-80 ppm. I personally like it closer to 80 than 60.

Yes, it is a good idea. Some state health departments have banned the use of dichlor in commercial spas because it causes CYA levels to rise very fast.

Correct, bromine cannot be stabilized against UV light like chlorine can. A couple of things to consider. If you are going to use bromine with a floater or bromine feeder (3 step bromine system) then you add the sodium bromide on filling the tub, shock with bleach (about 2/3 cup per 500 gallons for the 6%) and put in your floater or adjust your brominator. You want to adjust the floater or brominator to maintain a bromine reading of around 6 ppm. The bromine tabs add both bromine and chlorine to the spa at the same time. Shock weekly with the bleach and don't enter the tub until the bromine level is below 10 ppm. Drain and refill every 3-4 months and start over with the sodium bromide. (I personally like the HTH BromStart, it comes in packets premeasured for each 250 gallons of water.) If the spa is getting a lot of sun and is not covered you might want to consider switching to chlorine. If the spa gets a lot of sun you would want to maintain a CYA level of about 20 ppm (30 PPM MAX!) and maintain a FC reading in the tub of 4-6 ppm. Shock with chlorine when combined chlorine is over .5 ppm to a shock level of 15 ppm FC and let the level drop to below 10 ppm before entering tub. Do not use dichlor since it will cause your CYA levels to rise rapidly and make your chlorine less effective as a sanitizer and could allow pseudomonas to grow in the water. This is the bacteria that causes 'hot tub itch'.

If you are going to use chlorine I would recommend a Taylor K-2006. If you are going to use bromine a Taylor K-2106. Both use the FAS-DPD titration test for sanitizer which is much easier to read and more accurate than the DPD tests commonly used! These kits will also include all the other necessary tests for normal spa water balancing. DPD tests require color matching very similar shades of red and many people (mostly men) have a great difficulty with this. (Women for some reason do much better with this test). The FAS-DPD test is a drop count test with a distinct color change from red to colorless and is also much more accurate and will not bleach out at high sanitizer levels like the DPD test.

The titrant is different so it can test bromine levels. The DPD powder is the same.

The bromine liquid is just sodium bromide. This is not your sanitizer. When you add an oxidizer (chlorine, MPS, or ozone) it converts the sodium bromide into hypobromous acid, your santizer that is measurable with your strips or a test kit. If your bromine is low then add oxidizer to bring it up and shock about once a week. If you are not using bromine tabs in a floater then you do have to add the sodium bromide weekly because it eventually gets converted into bromates which won't turn back into bromine sanitizer. You can enter the tub as long as your bromine levels are below 10 ppm but it's best to keep them between 6-8 ppm. Also, bromine sanitizer will 'burn off' in about 30 minutes or so when exposed to direct sunlight and there will be none left in the water.