waterbear

The best filter really depends on your needs. For ease of maintenance then a sand filter is the winner. However it is the least effective filter. A cart is a good compromise and in many localities is the only option permitted by law unless you want to install a DE filter with a separation tank!. (This is what happens when legislators make laws concerning things they know nothing about!) DE filters are going to give you the clearest water (something to think about if you like to swim at night with underwater pool lighting and want the pool to look crystal clear) but they are the MOST work if cared for properly. IMHO, DE filter should not be backwashed but should be broken down for cleaning. Here's why: First, there are 2 types of DE filters, those that can be backwashed and those that can be 'bumped'. We will look at the latter type first. To 'bump" the filter there is a lever you push that knocks the DE powder off the grids so it can mix with the dirt the filter has collected. You then recoat the grids with the dirty DE powder!!!!!! I'm sorry but I never understood this one. Dirty DE is dirty DE! How is this cleaning your filter? The second type you backwash...seems straightfoward enough, doesn't it. Well, how much DE have you actually backwashed out and how much do you REALLY need to replace. If you overcharge the filter the DE will bridge between the grids and form a cement like mass that you will have to chip out with a screwdriver or chisel! (You service techs know what I'm talking about!) If you undercharge you don't have enough DE to properly coat the grids so your filtration is not going to be good. Also we are always cautioned about NOT running a DE filter without charging it with DE powder so we don't foul the grids but when we backwash we are running water backwards through the grids. Why isn't that fouling them? (Actually it is which is why the grids need soaking on a regular basis to degrease them!). Don't get me wrong. I love DE filters, they really do make the water sparkle but if you are going to maintain them properly they are really the most work! The need to be broken down on a regular basis and not backwashed or bumped. So that pretty much means that going from least work to most would be sand, cart, and then DE and from least filtering to most would be sand , cart and DE. However the difference between cart and DE is not that great while the difference between sand and cart is considerable in filtering ability. You can increase a sand filter's filtering ability by adding a bit of DE powder to it after each backwash and you can do the same with a cart by using a celluose filter aid after each cleaning. HOW to do this properly is a topic for a different thread. Zeolite in sand filters is often said to filter as well as DE but it doesn't. It might have pores in it but water is going to take the path of least reistance which will be AROUND the zeolite grains and not through them. Zeolite's main advantage is ammonia scavaging, which is why it's been used as an aquarium filter medium for years. This very same ammonia scavaging ability makes it not very useful for salt pools since a brine solution is used to recharge the zeolite. IMHO, it is not worth the money and plain sand with a bit of DE does a much better job! You really have to decide which is most important for your pool and lifestyle, ease of use or filtering ability and consider how much time you want to invest in maintaining your filter. There is no best choice, only which compromises fit your lifestyle.

I can answer that question. I happen to be one of the Moderators at the site in question and and Richard is held in very high regard at that site. I would not allow it to happen nor would the other mods or the site owner! I can say that for a fact!

And pool and spa professionals are still "slugging" acid to lower TA even though it has been documented in the now defunct JSPSI that it does not work! This article in you cite above is actually a decent primer for those who are just starting to learn water chemistry but it by no means is anything indepth! I have to say that chemgeek probably has a better understanding of the different chemical used to sanitize pool and spa water than most professionals do (and I happen to work in the industry and basically agree with about 99+% of what he says!) Sorry, just could't keep quiet on this one! I don't think you should keep quiet. You clearly work in the industry and have experience to back up your opinions. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but using bleach in a spa isn't a good one. That's my only arguement. I care so much about each and every customer I have that I hate to see them endangering their own health or potentially damaging their spa. Not to mention that using a spa is relaxing and you shouldn't have to add chemicals several times a day to maintain your water. There is also no way you should run a spa without fc. The people on this forum using bleach are doing that for the most part. It is a really great article and one we give to customers. I have to add that I can lower the alkanity by plugging with acid. Of course, I've been around the block a few times. But alas my time here is done. Goodbye and goodluck to everyone with their water. You have come in and now you are going? That's sort of cheap! Why not stick around and give you expertise to this board like I and some others in the industry do? You have also driven off chemgeek. That is a real loss! As far as bleach in a spa, I recommend it also and I am not the only one. I know of a spa dealer in S. FL that recommeded using bleach for chlorination and for 'shocking' bromine systems. (His main business is actually sellling spas and NOT chemicals!) Also at least one state (PA) and possibly others by now have outlawed the use of dichlor in commercial spas for precisely the reasons that chemgeek states (overstabilization)! Consider also that one of the largest pool/spa chemical companies (Arch Chemical) does NOT make a spa dichlor but only offes unstabilzed cal hypo for spa use and shocking! Your 'dichlor is the only way to go' argument is losing steam! I have successfully used bleach in my own spas. It does take daily water testing and shocking on a regular basis. Unfortunately many spa owners just don't want to put the work into it. As far as balancing pH and TA, well once again, testing and balancing is the answer. No one ever said that maintaining a spa was work free. IF someone is not going to test their water and balance it as needed then maybe a spa is not for them. Look at all the spas on chlorine and with ozone which goes directly against the info in the article you posted (and is something I have stated on here many times--that ozone and chlorine don't 'play well together). As far as running a spa without FC I agree with you but I have seem many poster who use dichlor that state that if you add the dichlor after you soak there is NO CHLORINE PRESENT the next time you use the tub and they think this is a good thing! I don't know who got you here to get rid of chemgeek but I suspect I will be next for 'bashing' biguanide since I don't recommend it except for people who actually are allergic to chlorine or bromine because of the problems associated with it's use (and which were also listed in the article you referenced!) not to mention my support of using bleach or other unstabilzied chlorine in a spa. I am wondering if you feel the same way about lithium hypochlorite? If you sell it I am sure you recommend it. It is a high ticket item. Bleach is not and, unless you also sell pool supplies it is doubtful that you carry liquid chlorine! Hmmm, maybe THIS is why bleach is not recommened. Dealers can't make a profit off of it!

And pool and spa professionals are still "slugging" acid to lower TA even though it has been documented in the now defunct JSPSI that it does not work! This article in you cite above is actually a decent primer for those who are just starting to learn water chemistry but it by no means is anything indepth! I have to say that chemgeek probably has a better understanding of the different chemical used to sanitize pool and spa water than most professionals do (and I happen to work in the industry and basically agree with about 99+% of what he says!) Sorry, just could't keep quiet on this one!

Yes, and it is being shocked with chlorine. What you are using is a chlorine system with a copper based algaecide. The strong chemical or 'fishy' smell of bromine is well documented and is one of it's big drawbacks. Chlorine actually has much less of a smell in a properly maintained system. If you tried chlorine and were smelling chlorine then your water had chloramines present and needed shocking. It was not being properly maintained. For what it's worth, I am not a salesman for any product. What I consistently read about on this forum are negative comments about both bromine and chlorine systems, but then the declaration that they are better than everything else. Sounds pretty depressing to me. You say that bromine systems have a tendency to smell chemical or "fishy" (yummy) and that chlorine systems (which everyone complains about drying skin out, bleaching clothing, smelling harsh) is much less of a smell problem if maintained. I guess a LOT of people aren't maintaining their systems properly. I don't want bad smell, harshness on my skin, pathogens...just clean, sparkling water. So far, BaquaSpa does it for me. I'm not saying it will do it for anyone else, but if I run into white mold problems someday, I am not very reassured by anything I read here regarding the two biggies Chlorine and Bromine. I have had actual experience with all three systems, using them at home and professionally. I can tell you that I stand by what I have said in the past about all three and other professionals on here have said basically the same. You have experience with biguanide in one hot tub. You have not tried anything else so you don't have a lot to go on. You seem to want to ignore the well documented and negative comments about biguanide also just because you have not had any problem yet. Perhaps you never will but most of the people who try it eventually do. BTW, how often are you cleaning and changing your filters? I guess that is something you don't mind doing because it needs to be done MUCH more fequently with bigainide than with either chlorine or bromine so it the work level is actually greater. This is docmetned in the instructions for use with these systems and is one of it's known drawbacks. Like I said I am glad that biguanide is working for you and I hope it continues to do so. You don't seem to mind the high cost or the extra work involved with more frequent filter cleaning so maybe it is a good match for you. (Then again, you have not tried anything else so you have nothing to compare it against.) It is one of the three EPA approved sanitizers (although some countries still do not allow it's use) so your water should be safe as long as your properly test and maintain your biguanide and peroxide levels. I do know that the dealer you are buying it from is happy since it is a profit maker for him.

The only unit that is starting to approack Pool Pilot in bells and whistles is the newer Goldline (Hayward) Aqualogic usiits which combine the SWG with full pool automation. They are introducing acid or CO2 pH control (Pool Pilot has had acid pH control with their Total control system for a few years now). If you are planning to upgrade to full pool automation then you might want to check out the Goldline Aqualogic units. I would not get anything less than a PS-8 if you do and get the remote! If you are looking for a good basic unit that works well then the Goldline AquaRite or a Resiliance (very basic but dependable) are two to consider. No matter which one you go with be sure to oversize the cell if different sized cells are an option. This will help maximize cell life. Also run your stabilzer near the high end of the recommeded range (VERY IMPORTANT for reasons that take a while to explain) and run your Total alkalinity very low (about 70-80 ppm or possibly even a bit lower). You also want to keep you pH in a narrow window of 7.6-7.8. If you do you will maximize cell life, minimize scaling, and have the best pH stability. One final thing you might want to consider is adding borates (Proteam Supreme Plus. Bioguard Optimizer, Poollife Endure, etc.)to your water to 50 ppm. This will contribute to the pH stability and also lessen your chlorine demand so you can run the cell at a lower output. Running at a lower output will lengthen cell life and also contribute to less acid consumption. One final thing, if you ever need to shock the pool (a rare event with a properly running SWG) use liquid chlorine or bleach (same thing actually! only difference is the strength!) instead of the boost or shock funtion of the SWG if it has one (most of them do). This will also help maximize cell life. The cell is actually generating liquid chlorine in the water so shocking with liquid will have the least impact on your water chemistry. Remember that a SWG only makes the chlorine. You still need to test and balance your water on a regular basis. If you don't have one now is the time to invest in a GOOD test kit. For home use I recommend the Taylor K-2006 (not the K-2005!) It will make your water balancing much easier and is worth every penny. With this kit you can test your free and combined chlorine, pH with acid and base demand, total alkalinity, calcium hardness, and cyanuric acid (stabilizer) For salt testing the easiest accurate way is with the Aquachek salt test strips (one of the two test strips I will use and recommend). Most of the salt meters built into SWGs are not that accurate and sometimes still need to be calibrated against a chemical test or a portable meter that has been calibrated. For borates use the LaMotte borate test strips, they are much easier to read than any of the others (the other test strip I will use and recommend). I do a lot of water testing at work and have helped get a lot of salt pools running well. Once they are set up and running they are very trouble free. Hope this info is helpful!

Yes, and it is being shocked with chlorine. What you are using is a chlorine system with a copper based algaecide. The strong chemical or 'fishy' smell of bromine is well documented and is one of it's big drawbacks. Chlorine actually has much less of a smell in a properly maintained system. If you tried chlorine and were smelling chlorine then your water had chloramines present and needed shocking. It was not being properly maintained.

You can order from Taylor by phone. It's really pretty easy and painless!

One thing to remember is the a SWG IS a chlorine system and NOT an alternative sanitizer. If you have a cartridge filter then you will only lose salt and stablizer through splashout so the chemical expense is actually much lower. Acid usage is going to be higher than a pool on trichylor but comparable to a pool on liquid chlorine. The electricty consumption is actually minimal. Once the initial outlay is finished the cost of replacement cells is actually not that different than what would be spent on cnlorine during the 5 year period that most cells last. If you have high calcium water then the cells will need cleaning on a regular basis but if you can balance your water it's a non issue. I live in Fl and have a SWG on my pool which runs year round and I have only acid washed my cell once in the past 3 years! We sell several different brands of SWGs where I work and while they all do the inteneded thing of producing chlorine by electrolysis I can say that the Pool Pilot it probably the best unit out there with many bell and whistles that do improve it performace. However, these very same bells and whistles also make is a bit more difficult to set up properly and many pool builders and maintenance techs are really clueless when it comes to proper setup and water balance for a pool with a SWG! As far as the other sytems you were thinking about let me tell you this. There are only 3 EPA approved and registered sanitizers for pools and spas--chlorine, bromine, and biguanide. All others such as UV, ozone, and the various ionizers and erosion type metal systems (call them mineral systems if it sounds more organic but the fact is they use such chemicals as copper sulfate and silver nitrate to add metal ions to the water) are secondary systems that MUST be used with an EPA approved sanitizer! Personally, I have lived with a SWG for several years now and would NOT go back to maually chlorinating a pool! It has really cut down on the maintenance involved!

With all due respect, it seems as if you and chem geek are the ones with rigid thinking. Anytime anyone is using something other than chlorine or Bromine based systems, your answer is "you may think it's leaving your water good, but dangers abound. It's deteriorating your tub, or poisoning you." Maybe some of these other approaches work well if done properly. With all due respect chelated copper sulfate is NOT an EPA approved sanitizer. If you read the marketing matierial it is NOT called a santizer but a bacteriocide and algaecide. Copper's algastatic properties are well known and copper sulfate has been used as an effective pool and spa algaecide for many years (but copper based algaecides have some definite drawbacks!) The product might have an EPA number but that is because copper sulfate itself is a registered pesticide, not because the product is an EPA registered sanitizer. Transmission of water borne illnesses, both repiratory and enteric, are no joke. Do a bit more research and you might change your mind! (Or are you possibly a marketer of the cleanwater blue system and it's sister enzyme product, eco one--also touted as a sanitizer!) IF these other approaches actually worked do you think that both bromine and chlorine would still be a prevelant as they are? Hmmm, something to think about! NONE of these 'alternatives' are new. Chelated copper sulfate has been used for years and it's not replaced bromine or chlorine yet. There MUSt be a reason for that! I know you are using biguanide and so far have had good luck with it but the majority of biguanide users DO suffer problems. The damage that biguande causes to certain plastics and the shorter filter life and more frequent cleanings are a fact. I have never said that bigaunide was NOT an effective sanitzer, it is. I have just said that it is not a first choice because there are more problems associated with it than with either bromine or chlorine. This is a far cry from the use of chelated copper sulfate or enzymes exclusively, neither of which are primarey sanitizers! Copper is an effective algaecide and enzymes can help digest lipid based organics in the water (something to conisder witha biguanide based system!) but neither one will keep the water 'safe'>

water can look clear but still harbor many pathogens. It 's your tub and your choice but if you come down with an water borne illness you can't say you haven't been warned! If you wife truely cannot handle bromine and chlorine then your only other EPA approved sanitizer (with an EPA registration number for SPA use which is a whole different game than drinking water sanitation) would be a biguanide system like SoftSoak or BaquaSpa. Biguanides have thier own set of problems which is why I don't really recommened them but for some people it is really their only alternative. The thing I find a bit strange about your post is that you went with bromine over chlorine. Bromine has a MUCH stronger smell than chlorine does!

Sorry to burst your bubble but the wiping the dropper tip info comes from the Taylor website! Their bottles (as do all plastic dropper bottles) suffer from the same problem. It really only seems to have a major effect on the FAS reagent and the sliver nitrate reagent used in the chloride (salt) test.

Good news is that there is an easy way to remove the staining. Put a bunch of vitamin C tablets in a sock and use it as a 'stain eraser' As the vitamin c dissolves so will the stains it comes in contact with. This will work best when your hydrogen peroxide levels are low since peroxide (or any oxidizer) will destroy the vitamin c. Once the stains are gone add a double dose of metal sequesterant and slowly bring your peroxide levels back into line over the next week. IF you raise the peroxide too fast the staining might come back.

change your filter and shock the spa with a large dose of bleach=about 2-3 oz per 100 gallons. If any biguanide is present you will see the water discolor...just keep the FC level up to about 10-12 ppm until the water clears. The biguanide in the water will consume the chlorine pretty fast so you will need to add it a few times a day to maintain the level. Once the water is clear and the chlorine is holding you are done! Let the chlorine levels drop and then start your bromine by adding your sodium bromide!

Easy way to tell if the stain is iron. Take an ordinary vitamin c tablet and hold it on one of the stained areas. If it is an iron stain it will disappear in a matter of about 30 seconds. If the vitamin c has no effect on the stain then it is NOT iron. A metal sequesterant alone will not really remove the stain unless you double or triple dose it and drop the pH to about 7.0. You are using a biguanide based system (Softsoak) and the fact that you said it feels 'slimy' in one area makes me think that it might be bacterial and not metal staining. Bacteria have been known to develop an immunity to biguanide sanitizers after a period of time.

I saw your wikipedia post.... first, anyone can write or edit posts on wikipedia so it is NOT the voice of authority. Whoever wrote that has a very basic understanding of how metals (I prefer that term to the more 'granola-crunchy' term 'minerals' that marketing hype is so fond of using along with 'chemical free' because we are talking about copper, silver, and or zinc here! Last time I checked they were metals and chemicals, espcially when you look at the erosion type units that contain silver nitrate, copper sulfate, etc on either a slow release ceramic bead or a bed of slow dissolving calcium carbonate or 'limestone'!) act as bacteriostatic agents and as algaestatic agents. What they failed to mention is the CT values of these agents (In layman's terms the kill times.) Are they fast or slow acting. Well, metals have very slow kill times so for water purification in a closed system such as a water tank for drinking there can be a long enough contact time for santized water (which is where all of the hype about them comes from such as their being used by NASA, etc.) but in a spa there MUST be a fast acting residual sanitizer in the water to take care of such things as the urine and feces that every bather introduces, no matter how clean they think they are, a bird flying overhead and pooping in the water (it happens) etc. There are only 3 (count em, 3!) EPA approved sanitizers for pools and spas. They are chlorine, bromine, and biguanide. ALL OTHER PRODUCTS are supplimental and MUST be used with an EPA approved santizer if you want santized water. Some supplimental products like ozone have a proven track record and have merit. Some, like metals, are dubious at best (In Canada metal systems have to be sold as algaecides and not supplimental santizers and in Australia they have to be used with normal and not reduced santiizer levels). Some are pure snake oil (Enzyme products are somewhat useful at reducing orgainic load but are NOT sanitizers by any stretch of the imagination and if you believe that magnets or nascent oxygen have any effect on your water I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you along with some swamp land in the Everglades!).

A few thoughts.... When you tested with the OTO did you wait about 3-4 minutes before reading it? OTO only tests total chlorine and it can take a few minutes to fully develop. As far as the discrepancy between the DPD test and the FAS-DPD test I have 2 possible explanations... The first. At least 1 out of 5 men have a lot of difficulty determining the different shades of red on the DPD comparator (I assume you are male, your name could be either). Have a woman double check your test results readings. The second is that the FAS-DPD titrant is prone to static electricity affecting the drop size and making the drops smaller so you get a (false) higher count. The remedy is to wipe the dropper tip with a damp tissure before you form each drop. In theory you are supposed to do this for all drop based titration in plastic dropper bottles but it seems the FAS-DPD titration and the silver nitrate/chromate test for chloride (salt) are the most prone to static causing inaccurate results. The first you can't to much about. The second is easy to check.

DE and Fuller's Earth are not the same thing. Fuller's earth is a clay material such as found in kitty litter or 'floor dry'. It is compromised of several different speicies of magnesium and calcium compounds and is very high in magnesium oxide and calcium carbonate. Diatomaceous Earth is the fossilized remains of a one celled algae and is mostly silica. Apples and Oranges!

No surprise to me. Perhaps if you forget the MPS, maintain your FC at about 4-5 ppm at all times and shock weekly with chlorine you will not have any persistant CC. Might be worth a try. (I've seen it work before). This doesn't mean letting the FC drop to 0 and then bumping it up. It means daily testing to maintain the level. If you are finding the level hard to maintain then I would suggest a spa purge treatment on the next drain and refill to clean out the plumbing, possibly a source of your persistant CC, although testing error is also a possiblility. (The ezyyme based ones work well. I've used the one by Natural Chemistry). Follow with shocking to about 30 ppm FC for good measure.) One other thought, you are leaving the spa uncovered and the circulation running when you shock, aren't you? Do so until the FC is at normal levels and then test for CC. If the spa gets sunlight shock during the day so the sun can hit it, this also helps.

No surprise to me. Perhaps if you forget the MPS, maintain your FC at about 4-5 ppm at all times and shock weekly with chlorine you will not have any persistant CC. Might be worth a try. (I've seen it work before). This doesn't mean letting the FC drop to 0 and then bumping it up. It means daily testing to maintain the level. If you are finding the level hard to maintain then I would suggest a spa purge on the next drain and refill to clean out the plumbing (The ezyyme based ones work well. follow with shocking to about 30 ppm FC.)

No surprise to me. Perhaps if you forget the MPS, maintain your FC at about 4-5 ppm at all times and shock weekly with chlorine you will not have any persistant CC. Might be worth a try. (I've seen it work before). This doesn't mean letting the FC drop to 0 and then bumping it up. It means daily testing to maintain the level. If you are finding the level hard to maintain then I would suggest a spa purge on the next drain and refill to clean out the plumbing (The ezyyme based ones work well. follow with shocking to about 30 ppm FC.)

Spatech, I do agree with you on that one. I would guess that the bromine levels were through the roof at that point. (but then again, high chlorine levels after shocking would have similar results if you entered the tub, unless you were shocking with MPS.)

No mystery here. Test strips are not that useful. The pH test on the majority of strips is pretty much useless. I've only come across two strips where the pH test shows any kind of accuracy--The Taylor 6 way and the HTH (which is a rebranded Taylor 6 way). LaMotte, Aquachek, and the Chemtura brand strips all will give very different pH readings on the same water sample. Try it, I have. I have found that even cheap 2 way drop based testers (OTO/pH) give more accurate, precies, and repeatable pH results than the majority of test strips out there. I would trust your Taylor results on pH. BTW, test strips have the same type of interference cause by high bromine or chlorine as do drop based reagents. They are all based on phenol red indicator.

I've so far avoided giving my $0.02 but I can't help but to chime in with my usual response to this type thread. There is one simple way to fix all this. Get rid of bromine and go to a simple chlorine system. I'm not a big fan of bromine and have helped many people with this type issue over the years and almost all are MUCH happier with using chlorine. Bromine will sanitize but I and others can't get over the "chemical soup" type feeling that bromine gives when compared to what you get with chlorine. IMO, chlorine is also MUCH easier to use and the water is much nicer to sit in so if your next attempt doesn't work out so well I'd advise a switch (and you can always PM me if you need help if you ever do go the chlorine route). Even with chlorine you still need to monitor pH, TA CH and now possibly CYA so it really is not going to simplify water balancing. I do agree that chlorine is much nicer than bromine (I've lived with both myself) and there is less smell but it takes a bit more work to maintain. Bromine is more fogiving of a bit of neglect and has wider tolerances for acceptable water balance ranges. These are it's main advantages. Miss Noel, IF you got the Taylor testkit as recommended it has treatment tables in it that will allow you to determine how much of a chemical you need to add based on your testing results. Trial and error don't play a part. Your testkit tells you what you need.

How much baking soda do you add at a time while trying to raise the TA? An ounce? A tablespoon? Wow, didn't know runing the jets and bubbles could raise PH! Cool. Good to know, thanks! Already ordered. Tanks for the tip! As to how much baking soda to add to maintain your TA, your test kit will tell you that! TA 'carbonates' your water (much like club soda is carbonated). This carbonation is the buffer system we call TA. It is made up of carbonic acid--carbon dioxide dissolved in water--and carbonate and bicarbonate ions. When the TA is too low we raise it by adding baking soda. This adds more bicarbonate ions, some of which might convert to carbonate ions, depending on the pH.You want to keep your TA around 100 ppm since you are using bromine tabs which are acidic. If the TA is in line but the pH is too low aerate the water. This drives out carbon dioxide (like shaking up a bottle of soda to make it go flat). This lowers the amount of carbonic acid so the pH rises. If the TA is too high you want to drop the pH to about 7 and then aerate to raise it. Each time you do thsi you will lower the TA somewhat. Repeat until the TA is where you want it. A very high TA is often the result of the fill water used. If that is your case you will probably never need to add baking soda. If the pH is too high you just add acid to lower it to the desired range. TA will get 'consumed' over time so you will need to add a bit of baking soda from time to time unless your fill water has a natural high TA. Your water testing results are what tell you what to add, when to add it, and how much to add! That is why a GOOD test kit is so important!