great white

Just make sure your full warranty starts from the date on your invoice and not a day sooner.....IE: don't let them knock off a year because it's a year old demo model.

I would recommned ensuring you have a proper ridge vent in the roof and soffit vents to start. Then, I would look at some type of exhaust fan scheme. Much like a bathroom, but larger. An air exchanger unit (Venmar for example), would also help deal with the humidity on a day to day basis. Nothing fancy with heat exchangers and such, just something to keep the humidity down. As to the walls and coverings, out of my depth there other than standard building techiques. Maybe look at some of the mildew resistant wall board and use durock 90 to mud (mold/mildew doesn't feed of of it like drywall compound). Standard insulation practicices will also keep the moisture that condenses on the walls to a minimum by keeping the interior and ceiling warm. IE: keep the exterior cold out and the warm in. Make sure you also vapour barrier also......don't scrimp there. basically, you're going to end up building a small house to do it right. Good luck.

Absolutely! Thank you! Now if we could get 20 or 30 others with different makes and models, I think we would revolutionize the industry. I doubt we'll get there, but this could be the beginning of a kbb.com or edmunds.com for Hot Tubs. DK117 well, how about another? Keep in mind, these were my quotes, from my dealer, with thier particular costs/discounts/ extras...

This detailed enough?

I don't know if I'd say I "touted them", but I do see the advantages and disadvantages of a fully foamed design. Other than the hassle of servicing leaks in the plumbing, it's hard to see any other drawbacks. I was willing to take the chance on the design given the length of the warranty. Less of a warranty or where construction is in question would be a different story. With an across the board 5 year warranty (my dealer "tops up" everything on the waranty except the cover to a minimum of 5 years) I'll be picking up that phone at the first signs of any trouble...

I found the moto massage to be just right. Didn't hammer my spine, worked the muscles fine on either side. Much better experience (IMO) than other manufacturers fixed jets. My tub is a grandee though, not an envoy. Personal preference will dictate what you get. Wet test, wet test, wet test! I cannot stress that enough.....

You said in your Pm (and a few others have also) your dealer wouldn't believe it without seeing an invoice. Show him this for my grandee: image removed Then show him the quote for a vanguard: image removed Then tell him that's a Canadian price. The Cdn and US dollar is pretty cose right now, but not equal (ie: USD is worth more so Cdn cost is more than US) And we didn't play hardball with the dealer. They gave us what we thought was a fair deal for the model, then threw in a couple free and discounted things, we stalled a bit, we left with a quote, came back the next day and the dealer knocked a bit more off the price. But we had the distinct impression we could have gotten a small bit more off if we pushed hard. However, there comes a point where you trade off a little bit of intital purchase price for better customer service (relationship) down the road. Then tell you dealer to put up or shut up.

Stressing about the difference between a dealer price and the costco price is pointless. Costco is going to beat a dealer, not even a question. Also, I've found costco listings for the csxi from 4779.00 to 6499.00 on the web which shows how pointless wondering about who has the highest mark up is. I guess you have to decide if you're looking for the best price and buy the tub that fits, or choose the tub you want and find the best price. If your major concern is price, just buy the Costco tub and then enjoy a nice long soak! We, however, went the other way and found the most comfortable/nicest tub (for us at least) and then squeezed out the best price we could get.....

Some info on the subject in question from the Costco site: http://www.evospas.com/CSXi80.html Interesting, FWIW: http://forum.ih8mud.com/workshop-home-impr...pa-hot-tub.html In the video posted here: http://evo-spas.com/index.php?model=csxi80 You can see the controler as a balboa vs series: http://www.balboainstruments.com/page142.html So, it's logical that the top panel is the balboa model designed to work with it: http://www.balboainstruments.com/page158.html It certainly looks similar, minus a few features/buttons. Changing the "skin" on the controller is a relatively simple operation when the hot tub company orders them. Hmm, by the adress on the picture for the costco model: It appears to be calleda "vienna" (right click, properties, read the name). And, oddly enough, the "vienna 66" model on the strong web site : http://www.strongpoolsandspas.com/page.php?pageid=19 ; looks pretty much the same. Using that name may reveal more component info if you put google to work. Just be aware that the "Vienna 66" Strong sells and the CSXi80 costco buys from them may have differences.... If you keep digging, the info is out there....

Car dealers....LOL I am the fleet manager for the company I work for and have purchased about 60 vehicles in the last 7 years. Invoice is what they pay minus manufacturer volume discount, finiance discount and so on and so on!!. OK sorry back on topic. Actually, the price on the window sticker is "manufacturers suggested retail" and has nothing to do with what it cost to buy or build it.... Crap, off topic again....

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store. 7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe. Well, to play devils advocate here...... The equipment bay of my (on order) Hot Springs Grandee was actually a bit of a dissapointment on "neatness" when they popped the door off the floor model for me. Wiring was bundled sloppily, wires running everywhere, no cable standoffs, etc. The equipment compartment of the H2o model was 10 times "neater". In thier defence though, everything was grometted and/or molexed. The remaining connections were all very robust and solid. Visably more so than the H2o, calspa, beachcomber and Arctic models we looked at. Now, did it turn me off on the whole package? Obviously not. I know there's more to quality than just routing the wiring neatly. But I did expect to see neat and impecable wire routing and specifcally cut lengths rather than bundles for the price I paid.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing one of the less expensive brands on the market today (IE:Costco). I considered several before I bought my Hot Springs. The buyer just has to be happy with what they get and accept whatever compromises the manufacturer has made to meet that price point...... That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised? I think your question may be too broad for the answer you're looking for. Pick a tub to compare the costco one to and then you can line components/specs up side by side for a meaningful comparison. But even then, some things may not be readily available. Some examples might be seal construction and bearing materials. Not to mention how much a manufacturer may have spent on developing/building a vacuum forming mold or the employee wages involved in hand rolling fiberglass (if the tub has that). As in any manufactured product, there's much more to price differences than just the installed components. However, if you have decided on buying a Strong/Costco model, do the differences (real or perceived) really matter? Buy one and be happy with your purchase. Go for a soak!

It depends on your tub and it's specs (whether or not it can take being supported in this manner), but it doesn't sound like something I would recommned. But then again, I'm not and expert of that type of install. I would think a better way would be to use a concrete leveling product on the slab. Your local building supply place will sell it. Make sure you prepare the surface to ensure proper adhesion, if you go this way. The product manufacturer is the best source for info on use and application...

Having "somewhat" of an engineering background, I'll give you some of the "pros and cons" of this building method. Pros: 1. Vibration dampening. Anything that is required to make a seal, benefits from reduced vibration. The hoses and fittings will vibrate from the pumps and the movement of water through them. Foaming them in place damps this vibration and results in a seal that lasts longer. 2. Insulation. Do we really have to discuss the benfits of closed cell spray foam insulation and the amounts of it? Let's just leave it as it a superior insulation method. 3. Sound damping. A fully foamed tub is going to be quieter. A "non-foamed" tub is going to resonate with the vibration induced by the pumps and the movement of the water through the plumbing. you can change the frequency at which the tub resonates by varying the thickness of the acrylic and or backer material, but you can't eliminate it. The shell is also going to act as a "speaker" of sorts for any sound inside the case, again, pumps/water movement/etc. It's just the way it is. Whether or not this (or the amount of it) bothers the buyer is a personal choice. I find it does effect your enjoyment and the "impression" of quality after you've compared them side by side. 4. Structural integrity. Spray foamed "to the gills" means every square inch of the shell structure is supported. The water/bather load is spread thoughout the structure and supported by the entire base instead of by a wood structure at a few points or the tub edges alone. yeah, so what? What does this mean? It means less shell deflection and/or movement means less chance of broken seals or cracking tubs. Some may point out that household tubs and large "in house" jacuzzi tubs are supported by the tub edges, but they also don't have to deal with 2-3 tons of water load..... 5. Base loading (for lack of a better term). This refers to the loading on the structure below the tub. Not so important if mounting the tub on a concrete pad, but for deck installs it can make a difference. Sure, the total weight is going to be the same that the deck supports, but an edge loaded (on the skirt) tub is going to have areas of concentrated load as opposed to th spread out toal load of a fully foamed tub. Think of it this way; an edge loaded tub has a better chance of deflecting deck boarding between the joists of a properly engineered deck than a tub that loads the entire undertub surface. This could result in a slightly deflected tub shell, which can cause leaks around the seals... Cons: 1. Serviceability. If you do develop a leak, well, we all know how much of a PITA that could be. Accessablity is definately a plus. 2. Upgrading. If you ever wanted to add pop up speaker or some other such item, running wiring and components is going to be a real pain.... 3. rodents. They sure do love to burrow into things like foam in the winter. Anything to keep themselves warm. Sure, they could destroy the insulation in a non foamed tub too, but it's much easier to repair. Even more so if a mouse burrows into the foam and hit a hose or electrical wire.... 4. Another is......ummm....well.....realistically, other than fixing a leak that a fully foamed tub might have prevented due to the above pros, I can't really think of another............and I'm really trying to think of another to balance the sides here....... There's absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing one of the less expensive brands on the market today (IE:Costco). I considered several before I bought my Hot Springs. The buyer just has to be happy with what they get and accept whatever compromises the manufacturer has made to meet that price point......

Not sure what it's like for dealers or prices in your area, but I just paid 10400 Canadian for a Hot Springs Grandee with a set of basic steps and a pivoting cover lifter. 11,600 taxes in, delivered and set up in the back yard.....

Well, I'll give you the "most Spa builders part", and there's always a cost saving when dealing in larger volumes. But, on the other side of that coin, my HS has alot of features not seen on other marketed models. They were all thought up, developed and produced by HS. "Moto-massage" jets, "soothing seven" jets are a few that come to mind that i didn't see on any other manufacturers tubs. All the others seemed to be the same type or designs. Sure, there appears to be some common jets on the HS that are probably industry sourced, but there are only a few. And I don't doubt some of thier "HS branded" bits in the case are built by contractors. Tub design is also pretty evident in the " more expensive" models, they all seem much more comfortable and versatile than the less expensive/bulk suppliers tubs that we tested. I'm not trying to"pimp" HS, but in my experience they do seem to have a fair bit of in house designed and developed features that aren't TV's etc. They were also pretty much the only "high end" dealer in the area except fo the Arctic Spa place...but I'm not so sure they're high end instead of just high price...... On a side note, our HS dealer even tried to steer us away from TV's and sound systems (not that I wanted them) rather than "upsell" us. A nice sign of integrity IMO...

Not sure about our issue, but the filters on my HS grande are reported to last 2-3 years......Sorry, can't tell you from actual experience, still waiting for delivery. But my conversations with a few other owners in the area seems to bear this interval out as truth. Arctic Spa is every bit expensive as my HS, I would hope the filter life would be just as long for you. Also, about the "ozone", in my research before purchasing it seems that the ozone system is a supppliment to the chems, not a replacement. My (admittedly) inexperienced advice might be to have another look at you chem balance or have your local shop do a water test on a sample for you? My dealer will do it for free and give me a "recipe card" for chems to add...

Good question, but bet we'll just never know. It would be awful stupid on a manufacturers part (great for the consumer) to let out info like "yeah, we charge 12 grand for something that costs around 4 grand to build". One thing that I find people don't consider is the R&D costs that go into a higher "quality" tub. As in, the research that goes into what makes a comfy seat, what makes a good jet, better plumbing, etc. The (for lack of a better term) bargain tubs all seemed rather plain when it can to jetting nor does it seem much time went into the shell design. More jets and a simlar tub design to the big manufacturers maybe. But it seem it's these are the jet you get , these are the way they work, and this is pretty much where the hole should be based on copying another desgn or an older design. After wet testing several models on both sides of the price range (from 6000 to 13000) guess which one we bought? Yup, 13000. It was the HS Grandee. It held water like all the less expensive tubs, it kept it warm like all the less expensive tubs. But the seating was much more comfortable and versatile (swing seating options, etc) and the jet massage/quality/control was unrivaled by any of the less expensive tubs. I literally could not find one uncomfortable spot or somewhere I did not want to sit infront of a jet. One of my friends has a 5000 dolalr tub and he doesn't regret it, but he doesn't completely enjoy it. One of his comments is " if you sit in this seat here and turn the jets on, you better be holding on cause it will try and throw you right out of the tub". It has no real pressure adjustment other than air bubbles. Consequently, he doesn't use that seat with jets ever. I found the rather unquantifiable "feel of quality" was much higher than the less expensive models we looked at. I would equate it to looking at a Chevy and a BMW. Sure, they both will get you back and forth to work, but the BMW has a higher fit and finish, more engineering in the componenets and is just a nicer all around experience (yes,a BMW will break down just like a Chevy will). Not quite a compete analogy, but close enough for this discussion. Also, call me shallow, but there a certain pride in ownership/bragging rights when someone walks up to the car (hottub) and goes "Oooo, nice Beemer (Hot Springs)". Yeah, like I said, I'm shallow. On another note, after digging around in the guts of 10-15 diferent tubs and researching the components and component manufacturers, I have come to know (as much as any consumer ever really does) that just because a pump or controller has a brand name on it doesn't mean it's always an "apples to apples" comparison. Just because it's a Gecko controller/pump doesn't mean it's the same quality across their entire line. Lesser "entry" lines are built to a price point to keep costs down which, ultimately, means some quality/durability/feature is given up to make that price. It often comes down to the quality/composition of bearings, seals, connections, etc that makes one line from a component manufacturer different than thier next line up (read: more expensive/longer lasting). So, after all this blah blah blah on my part, the short answer for me is this: No, I don't know what the profit marging is. But, I'm willing to bet the percentage is not far off from a "high end model" from a "low end model"......IE: they all charge too much!

Not really an apples to apples comparison, but: We live in BC where beachcomber is made. The local dealer quoted us about 6500 CDN after taxes for the same model and features. Wet tested it but bought a Hot Springs spa instead. Cheers

The price that was on the tub in the show room was 12995.00 before taxes and without the couple extras (steps, lifter, etc) we had thrown in. My wife is a "shrewd' negotiator when it comes to purchase price. That combined with me being able to point out construction and features knowledge (dealers eyes got pretty wide when I asked her if we'd be getting a phase I or Phase II model, you could tell she knew what it was but didn't get asked that very often) made the dealer more willing to "wheel and deal". The value of the Canadian dollar is also making goods from the states a bit more affordable right now. My dealer was able to get a better canadian price (so she said) for this reason. So we got a "deal" at 10400 Cdn for the tub with steps, lifter and accessories included. As I mentioned earlier, 11600 taxes in delivered and set up to the pad in my back yard.

Pearl tub, expresso skirting. The pearl reflected the lighting very nicely (the spas was in an area that could be darkened) but wasn't a s "blinding" in the full daylight as the sterling. The wife didn't like the coast gray skirting, they didn't have a redwood one to look at (everyone has redwood anyways) so that left expresso. We both liked it, so the choice became easy after that.

We went into the HS dealer to look at the Sovergn and the Vanguard. They had a Grandee filled in the back of the show room. The Sovergn was out, didn't like the captains chair and the lounger just wasn't right either. *Disclaimer* we didn't wet test the sovergn. The Vanguard was nice, and had the moto massage jets. But with the wife and I both in the Vanguard (in the seats we each liked the most) we were bumping and rubbing toes and shins. We didn't wet test the Vanguard in the showroom, but a friend of ours has a 2008 Vanguard, and we've been in it before. Same deal, bumping shins (wife has very long legs) and we didn't like the single moto massage jets right on the spine in the single motomassage seat (wife is slim/athletic and doesn't have a lot of "meat" over the back). Then we wet tested the Grandee, very nice! Lots of room, slick finish and two motomassage dual jet seats so no competing for the single seat like in the vanguard (we both prefered the dual moto massage seat). Th eability to control the jets nd output in so many ways and with such small incriments was a plus. The LED lighting was miles better than anything we saw in the H2o show room on any model. So was the waterfall feature. Important options? Well.....no. But we're looking for something we would be happy with for the next 10-15 years. I know the wife and I, we'd be looking at the waterfall, LED's and assorted other items and thinking for only "X" dollars more we could have had the other one. Not something I want to be saying for 10 or more years.... The Canyon didn't do much for us in fit, finish, features or dry testing. It just seemed to big and featureless. Seemed to be more of a "party tub" (get as many people in as you can) or "get it big for all the kids" tub than what we were looking for. Although in all fairness, we didn't wet test the Canyon either....

After a search for the right tub and a thread with several twists and turns (http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22099), We pulled the trigger on a 2009 Phase II Hot springs Grandee! Didn't opt for the tv, sound system or the remote control. We ordered the pearl finish and expresso skirt color. We also had them include the lifter, step and intial setup chems. The spa came with a 50A GFI breaker and panel box. Delivery and assorted "brick a brack" were all included. Paid 10,400cdn, 11,600 cdn taxes in. There's just the wife and I, but we wanted the space for when we want to float and soak without having to rub toes (as opposed to when we want to rub......well, never-you-mind-that!) Other model we considered were: Artic Spas - Glacier and the Cub Calspa- couple different models H2ospas - Radium Hotsprings - Vanguard, Sovereign Beachcomber - 340, 350, and a couple 500 series opinions? Good deal? Too much? etc......

Ah, gotcha.

Wow 10,400 "what a good deal" or; Wow $10,400 "did you get screwed"? I'm "somewhere" in the Comox valley, BC.