arf1410

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store. 7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe. I DO want those answers! But I want specific answers! What is the specific pump manufacturer and model number in a Strong CX80, and how does it compare to specific pump part number in someone else's 8500$ tub? Same question for Control Panel, and any other parts that can be objectively measured. Unless you have that info, and can provide specific examples (even for other tubs) how can I separate a salesman's hype from fact? I tried to compare Strong warranty 5/2/1 with Cal Spa (a mid range product?), for example, and my first google "hit" was someone screaming about their refusal to honor a 5 year warranty because a seal went bad and water leaked into a pump...I googled "Jacuzzi" and "warranty" and I found it is a parts and labor long warranty sounds good...I also found someone complaining that Jacuzzi tells them to contact the retailer, and the retailer telling them to contact Jacuzzi for warranty service... I have confidence in Costco backing up a warranty...

Yes, I'm leaning towards the Strong CX80, but waiting for them to offer that with a lounger. However, it is tough buying something of that price sight unseen, and I am an admitted novice. However, also I am an mechanical engineer, who's brain functions on "facts and data", and I do have a little knowledge of manufacturing, design, and patent processes. I am willing to pay a little more for a lot more quality, but at best I have seen on this board I can pay a lot more, for possibly a little more quality. There are a lot of people with some Strong (pun intended) opinions on this (and most other!) forums, but there are unable or unwilling to supply hard facts and data. I understand that unless you have worked as an engineer/designer at a spa manufacturing company, a surely small sub-set of people, you probably wouldn't have the details of pump brands / model #s to debate a better pump, etc. But I sense some of the contributors here may have (or still do) worked at a Spa retailer(s), but don't want to share specific wholesale price data. Keeping those secrets makes me suspicious, which is why I SPECULATE Joe corner retail spa store pays $5000 for a tub they retail for $8000. I certainly accept a $12000 tub may have better components that the Strong/Costco tub. But I'm not willing to spend $12k, though I am willing to spend $7-8k if someone can supply real data to show its better than the $5k Costco tub...and so far, they have not...

There's absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing one of the less expensive brands on the market today (IE:Costco). I considered several before I bought my Hot Springs. The buyer just has to be happy with what they get and accept whatever compromises the manufacturer has made to meet that price point...... That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

"Keys, Hydro, Tatum or Infinity (who have I left out?)." Just because they went out of business,doesn't necessarily mean they were bad tubs. IF the tubs were bad, and no longer warranty support, then Costco does indeed give full refunds as reported on this forum. As far as the foam, it was a local spa dealer, who carried a line of tubs that offered foam as an option, who talked me out of it...not Costco/Strong....

I look at foam filled as a big negative - the minor possible energy savings is far out weighed by the tremendous added difficulty in access for repair. One recent post in this forum mentioned $1100 minimum to repair a leak in a foam filled tub. Also, I didn't think there was a correlation between foam and price - some manufacturers do, some don't, and others give you the choice. A local (Seattle area) dealer, not Costco, recommended to me against that option. Certainly a longer warranty has value, however only if the store or manufacturer is there to support it. I have more confidence Costco will be around in 5 years than the corner Spa dealer. Spa dealers generally provide free delivery and setup, which is worth a couple hundred dollars. The Spa dealers I have spoken with did not mention any other free support, that they would offer unlike Costco. I would think their sales pitch would have mentioned it, if they provided it.

Arf, I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less. I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking. Actually, I am looking for some FACTS to convince me otherwise. Give me some specific examples of R&D expenditures, give me specific examples of lower quality components. Most of what my novice eyes have seen is that higher cost buys features and accessories. Costco drives prices. The previous Costco spa dealers very likely went out of business because the sold their spas with too little markup. If I buy a $4500 Strong Spa at Costco, and Strong goes out of business 2 weeks later becuase those $4500 tubs cost them $4600 to manufacture, I really don't care, as long as they are using "industry standard" components, so I can get parts in 6 years...I dont want to pay $7500 just so Strong stays strong and profitable...

New spa owner here, but I believe the use of ozone is new (by your criteria), also dual switch pumps and the use of circulation pumps. Full foam insulation may be new as well. LED lighting is certainly new. Are these break through? For the most part, not really. Ozone seems big, but the others are pretty obvious. And still others are thanks to the pump makes R&D, not the spa maker. Sure, spas are re-engineered often, but they are not really breaking the mold so to say. I have just determined ozone has been used purify pools and spas since 1980...so (1) it doesn't qualify as recent, and (2) I don't know for certain it was even developed by the pool or spa industry...so cross ozone off the list as possible recent SPA industry R&D ... Things like adding LED lighting is a design change, but unless for example they spent time and $$ to develop, say, underwater LEDs, you couldn't give them much credit for that either. My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Agreed that I can do no more than SPECULATE on pricing/costing, so I will encourage some follow up on one of the other issues I had brought up, R&D spending by the Spa manufacturers. What are some examples of major developments or improvements in a new spa v. one 10-20 years old? Main differences I see (as an admitted TOTAL NEWBEE) are more jets. Do Jacuzzi and some of the other major brands really hold many patents?

Smaller spa makers (like Strong) have little in teh way of true R&D but the major spa makers like Watkins and Sundance/Jacuzzi spend a lot on R&D with multiple Engineers and techs working on projects that may have ben in the works a couple years before they come to market (or may not come to market due to failing R&D) so I'd say post #2 got it right but you may be on track when you take about some spa makers who rely on their suppliers to handle the R&D on new products/technology. Certainly I agree the few major players are doing more R&D than all the little shops around. However, Spa don't strike me as high-tech. What major developements have there really been in the last 10-20 years??

I would be SHOCKED if Costco marks up ANY online item 30%+ Though I GUESSED $500 on a Spa, I think $100 is more likely than $1000. Costco works on very small margins. You propose what Costco marks up $1000, a spa dealer would mark only $1500. I think a dealer would have a mark-up 5-10 times greater than costco.... Due to its buying power, I do know for a FACT there are many items that Costco REATAILS for less than a small business's wholesale, which is why Costco is the "wholesale" supplier for many small businesses. To the best of my knowledge, there are no really large, nationwide spa dealers that do anywhere near the volume Costco would do

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc. While I doubt manufacturers will come to this board and divuldge much proprietary information, the Spa industry is big enough, that I'm sure a former manager of a Spa retail store may provide some good insight. Of course, as with any anonymous forum, no guarantees the info posted is factual...I think what the original poster is wondering about and me to, is how much would a $4500 costco tub retail for at a traditional spa store. I admit I am totally guessing at these numbers, but if you have "inside info" feel free to comment. Costco is going to be much lower markup, and higher volume than a typical Spa retail store. I would GUESS a $4500 Costco tub, Costco is able to buy for $4000. A smaller retail store, with less buying power, would pay wholesale $5000 for that same tub, and need to retail it for $7500 to cover their overhead and highly commisioned sales people. So to the commenters that say "you get what you pay for" regarding Costco tubs, I think that is a bit misleading, because I claim a $4500 Costco spa = a $7500 retail tub... When I look at just the parts, I see $2500 at most to build a tub....barring real fancy waterproof LCD TVs, etc...

We are close to ordering a Strong Spa....Until a month ago, and reading this forum, I knew little about tubs other than I liked being in them. My hope (and immpression) with the Costco / Strong Spa is that it was designed and manufactured with industry standard components and techniques, (and is not fully foamed), is that if in 6 years, when the tub is past warranty, and hypothetically Strong is out of business, repairs can be made using standard spa components, and with decent accessability, some repairs can be done yourself.... Seems like Spa are mechanically actually very simple devices, and repairs shold be easy if parts are available?

By saying "not bad economy tub" , can you give a few specific examples of why you say that? ie what particular features or components are less that what one would find on a mid range tub?

In the Seattle area, so snow is rare...Area is about 5' from door out back of garage, and 20' from sliding glass doors behind kitchen...while a concrete pad may have some merits as far as leveling and stability of hot tub, assuming you are talking a 8'-8' pad just under the tub, will make no difference regarding aesthetics or user comfort, etc. The brand (Costco/Strong) does state specifically that it can be placed directly on gravel... There are a couple of vendors that say you can put your spa on a gravel or other tamped-down base. They cite their extra sturdy base. I think it's a marketing ploy. The base isn't going to keep the shell from flexing if the base settles. You don't want your shell to flex, and no matter what anyone says, if the base settles the spa will follow it. Figure 8 pounds per gallon of water - 355 gallons is over 2800 pounds - plus , 1000 pounds for the spa itself. It will settle, and as it does the shell will flex... creating stress. You can replace just about any part of a tub that fails. But not the shell. As I see it, shells are the most worrisome part of a hot tub, so I would always opt for a good concrete pad, 4" thick or more, with rebar. Have a couple of pieces of rebar exposed so your electrician can tie an electrical bonding wire to it, just in case your electrical inspector requires this. This is getting a little beyond the main purpose of my post, which was really deck / surround structure, or not necessary question... but I do have about 6-9" of pea gravel down on "soil" that is hard as rock clay that takes a pick ax to get thru...Seeing as it is specifically allowed by the manufacturer, they should support the lifetime warranty if there is a problem, and I have confidence Costco will provide support if manufacturer balks or goes out of business...It is conceivable in 3-5 years I may very well do a deck or re-landscaping, so I really don't want to spend the extra $1000+ for a concrete pad...and contractors around seattle tend to charge 2 times (or more) what a job could be done for in the midwest....

In the Seattle area, so snow is rare...Area is about 5' from door out back of garage, and 20' from sliding glass doors behind kitchen...while a concrete pad may have some merits as far as leveling and stability of hot tub, assuming you are talking a 8'-8' pad just under the tub, will make no difference regarding aesthetics or user comfort, etc. The brand (Costco/Strong) does state specifically that it can be placed directly on gravel...

We are potential first time tub purchasers. Ours kids have now outgrown the high end swing set on a roughly 25' square pea gravel base. I find pea gravel actually more comfortable, and less lsippery when wet, to walk on with bare feet than a wood deck. It appears I can put a tub down directly on the pea gravel, and maybe get one of those spa umbrellas for shade / privacy from neighbors. Elsewere in the pea gravel, throw down an outdoor fire "pit" and a few chairs, and call it "good" at least for a while, as I don't want to spend more for a fancy deck / gazebo, etc, than for the tub itself. Any comments from forum readers regarding how important a big deck and surround structure is to enjoying the tub experience, or are people happy just throwing the tubs on the ground?