arf1410

Walleye - a very well stated post and I agree with most of what you state ... and will violate my own original statement with these follow-up comments... (a) though I agree with your #1, why some try to debate that point, is beyond me, and I think they loose creditability when they won't even concede that one point ( yes, I spent some extra time acting as my own "general contractor" hiring out set up, and electrical myself. © it's your service and warranty comment I don't understand, and I asked this question before when a similar point was made and no one even tried to answer. Whether I buy a spa from Costco, Homedepot, or the best mom and pop spa dealer around, if the spa breaks during the warranty period, I call a tele #, and a technician repairs it under warranty, if it is out of warranty, I call a repair man and pay to have it fixed. If you are going to state about finding a repair man...if you live in central Montana, that could be hard regardless of the brand, and if you live in a metro area, that should be easy with any spa made from industry standard components...and made from "industry standard components" is a separate subject from where a spa is purchased (d)I have purchased chemicals at my neighborhood spa dealer, and they are eager to sell them to me, and provide lots of advice with those chemicals...yet the funny thing is, Waterbearer, the main poster/moderator in the chemical forum, says DONT buy checmicals at the local spa dealer, they are basically ripping you off...

The FACTS show that among the cheapest cars are indeed the most reliable, as Consumer Reports recently stated the data shows Scion were indeed the most reliable - more so than all the high end brands

While I would state that ANY big box store has better purchasing power and lower overhead than a "mom and pop" store, selling almost any product, - mom and pops scream bloody murder when Walmart moves to town - I was really hoping this thread would not restart the Costco and Evolution debate, which was why I was trying to gather more generic information. Lets (at least try) to go with your comment above "You know what it costs to make a low end 7 ft spa? About $1500 before shipping. " lets not get into the engineering man hours, as that discussion will get nowhere fast...At a wholesale parts level, I'm just not seeing much difference in cost of a low end tub ($1500 according to poster) and a high end tub? low end controller $200, high end $400? Low end pump $100, high end $200? There seem to be a few people on this forum who are familiar with parts costs, so if a low end tub costs $1500 to build, talk me thru why a high end tub should cost more than $2500 to build? lets not get into stereos and other optional extras...

As most posters seem to feel there is a fairly large mark up on spas (ie 50-100%), if, hypothetically, one of the major manufacturers of quality spas (is hotsprings, sundance, etc) decided to provide product at similar wholesale costs as to existing dealers, to big box stores, certainly the big box stores can sell virtually any product at a lower cost than a "mom and pop" store? Why do you suppose no major manufacturer has tried to go that route, to move more product?

I'm not passing judgement as to a mark-up being good, or bad. Certainly a merchant has a right to charge whatever the market will bear. I am just trying to understand the fear spa merchants appear to have about a "big box" store getting into the spa retail business...sounds like there is potentially a lot for them to worry about if the markup are indeed ~100%...

New2Spa states "whatever the markup is, it isn't that much"- yet his post provides info that to me supports a large markup. ReefFreak and a few others claim it is a whole bunch. I tend to agree with Reef, that they are marked up quite a bit like any other high value, commisionable product typically sold at "mom and pop" retailer....however admittedly have no facts and data, or inside knowledge to support my opinion, thus my original post trying to gather real info!

Hmmm... not sure I understand your point here. However I would be quite confident that any product you can get a "smoking hot deal" on for virtually any reason has a very high markup. Products with small markups at a retail level you virtually never get major discounts on.

Recently purchased a Spa and am trying to better understand this business. I realize there is a fair amount of variation in answers to this question, and spa dealers don't really want this info to be "public"...never-the-less there might be some former "insiders" on this forum who can provide data. Can't really shop around because unlike buying a car, where in a big metro area there are numerous independent Ford dealerships, for example, it appears there is only one dealership (or chain) for a particular brand of spa. Are spas like cars where there is minimal markup on the vehicles, profit is made on repair, parts, and used cars? Or do spa dealers make most of their money selling the spas themselves?

I've tried this question a couple years ago, with no responses, or even had it removed by a moderator...but I'll try again. For a spa that actually sells for $10,000, what does a spa dealer typically pay at the wholesale level for that spa?

SpaTech - not sure I understand this statement "also a simple fix for a reapir guy or a true DIYer (as every Costco spa owner should be). " Why does a Costco spa purchaser need to be more of a DIYer than a non Costco Spa purchaser? No matter where the spa comes from, once the warranty is over, your choice is either fix it yourself, or hire a professional to fix it.

I bought a gas hot water tank at Home Depot a few years back...from the same manufacturer there were choices of models with an 8, 10 and 15 year warranties at increasingly higher price points. Initially I assumed the ones with longer warranties were designed to better standards, ie to last longer. Later I learned that they were mechanically identical. The higher price points were in effect buying an extended warranty. As any good consumer knows, an extended warranty is buying insurance on a product. By definition, and on average, you will loose money on insurance, so only insure items whose loss you cannot afford. So it is certainly plausible that the mechanically identical heating element has a 1 year warranty when sold at one store (or brand name) and a different warranty when sold at a different store. Of course it is also possible they are different. and Dr. SPA "You want to pay less for a spa? Something has to be omitted from the manufacturers costs." ...maybe, maybe not...it could be lower manufacturing costs or lower marketing costs or lower retail markup or shorter warranty or any combination of the above. Manufacturing costs is only one element that goes into a retail price.

This seems almost like a bizarre discussion. I don't understand why there is an issue before a repair estimate was ever received. If ANY expensive product breaks, that one doesn't have the ability to fix themselves, if it is under a warranty one calls either the manufacturer's warranty support line, or the party that provides the warranty, or if it is not under warranty, one calls a professional to get a bid for repair so one can make a repair v replace decision. As far Spas, I wasn't aware of any single repair, other than the shell, that could be over $1,000...but I'm not pro, that's why I would call one! As far as Costco's policy...for example, I bought a portable DVD player there, about 4 years ago ( but AFTER the 2 year return for electronics was put in place). The rechargeable battery pack died after 3.5 years...I would consider that normal wear and tear...I look all over the internet for a replacement to buy...none available...only then did I call costco and ask for help to BUY a new battery pack. They got back to me a few hours later and stated they couldn't find them either, and offered me a full refund...I didn't even ask. That was above and beyond reasonable. Your desire for a refund without even attempting to bring in a repair professional is not.

I'm confused ...why are you unwilling to spend a few hundred bucks to repair a 4 year old, $7,000 item? Do you have reason to believe the repair costs will be in the thousands?

I understand the Taylor test kit is the preferred method of testing for a bromine system, as it is more accurate than the test strips. I would like to think that not all test strips are created equal. Is there a brand that is less bad than the others?

not sure why I bother, as we don't seem to be making much forward progress, never-the-less, I'll try again. You originally implied it is a mechanical problem, then later, chemical. /1/ If chemical, is there a fix, or just drain and start again? which product that I added contained the copper? If indeed the issue is excess copper, is that a physiological problem - ie skin irritation? other? /2/ If it is mechanical / some thing from the heat exchanger - Is this some type of by-product from the manufacturing process, and the system should be flushed and it will clear up? If this is more permanent, what sort of problem/defect with the heat exchanger would cause it to exrete copper into the water?

I would also ask questions to the local spa shop, but I have less confidence in their knowledge, and ability to provide answers that aren't biased based on desire to sell product. My questions for this forum are not to imply I think you are incorrect, or less knowledgeable that the local spa shop, but for me to learn and understand what is going on. Once (or if) you get past your cynicism, you are capable of providing good information. Remember you did previously state that sulfuric acid was more a problem with pools than spas, and I'm sure you were being sarcastic when you mentioned heat exchanger damage, as it occurred after only a couple days, and I do not believe the pH ever went below 7.4 If you, or anyone else, feels like giving me some reasonable suggestions, or links, on the clear green tint, that would be appreciated!

Several days after filling, the water seems to have a clear (not cloudy) greenish tint. From googling, it appears this is probably from a high copper content, but have not found any clear guidance what to do about this, or if there is really any need to do anything. Is it simply an appearance issue, or is a bad for skin or the spa?

Why not just listen to your local spa dealer. It will be easier for you and good luck. The data provided, while I'm sure is accurate, is followed by recommendations from some software provided by BioGuard/BioLab, and all the recommendations are for the type and quanitities of the BioGuards products. I don't have a lot of confidence in the 18 year old young man who ran the tests to be able to provide a lot of additional insight, and I have some Spa-Kem chemicals I would like to use up, rather than trash. You, and others on this board, certainly appear to have significantly more experience than the average guy (at least the average high school employee) at the local spa chain, and likely even have some more formal chemistry training. That is why I was trying to understand the ramifications of using my Spa-Kem pH decreaser, in light of the information previously posted that seemed (at least, and maybe incorrectly, to me) a bit contradictory regarding use of sulfuric acid for this purpose. Thanks for your help. I do appreciate it!

making some progress...My local Spa dealer / chain sells the Taylor test kit, but basically said it is an overkill for normal home use if you live nearby, as they do in store testing for free. Among other items, my pH was 7.7, not too bad, but still need to lower it a bit. In my earlier post, you recommended against the Spa-Kem pH decreaser, which is 10 % Sulfuric acid, but in the same post you state dry acid, which you do recommend, forms sulfuric acid when added to water. So was your recommendation against Sulfuric acid for safety reasons, or other?

Where the conduit goes from inside the garage thru the wall to the subpanel on the outside wall, the electrician installed a 6" square box with a few extra coils of wire. He charged an extra $50 to do this, which seemed reasonable. I have easy access there to the wires to install an EKM meter, or timer (though not sure why) or some other electrical gizmo down the road. I had no hesitation spending a little extra for this, even if I never take the next step, because I had originally accepted a bid for $825 for the job, but that electrician was not available the week I needed him, and the next guy I called only wanted $535. I never bothered with additional bids after that $825 bid, because I thought I had read $1000-$1500 was typical...

returned my sodium bromide "mix" and got the pure (well, 99%) sodium bromide granules as instructed. in the "bromide 101" post it states if your bromide levels are low, to add a little bleach. Why wouldn't one add teh sodium bromie granules? I thought that was fast acting, unlike the NaBr tablets?

thanks found that while googling. electrician was going to run wire about twenty feet inside the garage from main panel then go thru wall and ten feet to tub. i assume sub panel would go on outside wall of house but could it go inside garage? would this device go between main and sub panel or between sub and spa?

certainly I don't want big and ugly... with a family and all the other variables year over year bill comparison will be of minimal value. if at time of installation there was a cheap easy and unobtrusive way to measure or meter i could do various tests... one filtration cycle for48 hours, then switch. weather inn Seattle metro area so dull we commonly have identical weather every day for a week

My new tub has "storage" steps, which appear that would keeps things reasonably, but not necessarily completely dry. Can chemicals and measuring strips be kept in there, knowing that the humidity and temperature fluctuation will be much higher than indoors?

Electrician will be out tomorrow or Friday to install circuit and hook up a new tub. Is there anything within reasonable extra cost ($100-$200 max) I can have him hook up to allow measuring of energy electricity consumption?