simonc

Fry Man - I can't answer your question, but I am curious about your SWG system. Is it built into you tub or is it an aftermarket add-on? If it's an aftermarket device, what kind is it, how long have you been using it, and ... lastly ... are you happy with its overall performance. I am thinking about getting an aftermarket SWG for my Jacuzzi brand tub (275 gallons). There seems to be very little posted on this forum about the aftermarket devices. I'm basically in the dark about these devices as add-ons. I would appreciate your thoughts on the subject. Thanks, - Simon

QCD - Thanks. Those links are very helpful. I think I'll go the TSP route since it seems to be "officially" recommended by filter manufacturers. 1 cup TSP to 5 gallons of water. - Simon

Anyone else have experience with HTH filter cleaner? Is it a soak or spray or what? I looked on the HTH website, they give almost no infomation. Maybe there are other similar (better?) products out there? Also, have people had good luck with TSP? It's cheap, but does it cause foaming or skin/eye irritation. But I'm nervous about using a strong detergent (takes the shine off of paint!) and then putting the TSP cleaned filter back into my tub. Also, what concentration of TSP do you recommend for soaking the filters? Thanks, - Simon

What's the most effective way to clean the filter cartridges on my Jacuzzi Hot Tub? I just installed them (new) about 5 months ago. A couple of weeks ago I did a decontamination, following Nitro's recommendation, using Spa Purge as the cleaner. Yes, I removed the filters first. Also, I opened all the jets so water was circulating through the entire plumbing system. I tried to be as thorough as possible ... using my wet vac to get water out of the low areas of the curved tub bottom. I re-installed the filters, shocked with 50ppm chlorine bleach, and then drained/refilled again. So ... after of about two weeks of use, my Chlorine Demand (CD) is at about 50%/day. This seems rather high for a new refill on a newly decontaminated tub. I saw one thread on this forum that suggested that CD was related to organic debris in filters. Supposedly, the debris (skin cells, insects) is captured by the filter and then this material decomposes in the warm tub water, using up the chlorine. I have no idea if this is really true. Short of decontaminating my tub again and buying new filters (about $60 US), maybe I should try cleaning my filters??? I've seen recommendations about putting them in the dishwasher, I assume without detergent. This doesn't make sense to me. Is this very hot water really going to clean organic debris out of the multiple folds & little crevices in the filter? I doubt it. My dishwasher sometimes has trouble cleaning my utensils (forks) that are flat, smooth and with detergent. Also, I recently had to repair my dishwasher (replace broken plastic part in the sump). You should see all the garbage (literally) trapped in the sump of your dishwasher. Yuck!!! Any suggestions for filter cleaning that would reduce my chlorine demand??? - Simon

PaulR & Chem Geek - Thanks for the explanation about Chlorox vs. "Pool Chlorine". I guess I'll stick to Chlorox. The diclor-then-bleach method has been working fine for me. - Simon

QCD - A question ... would it be better to use liquid pool chlorine than chlorox? They sell it at my local hardware store in the pool section. It's 10% chlorine and is labeled "Pool Chlorine". I don't know the manufacturer, offhand. At this particular store, it costs about the same as Clorox bleach per unit of Chlorine. Would using pool chlorine avoid unwanted chemicals, like lye or Sodium polyacrylate? It's more convenient to buy and use Chlorox because you can buy it anywhere (almost) and use it for your laundry too. But maybe there's some advantage to using stuff that is specifically labeled at "pool chlorine"??? - Simon

Ken - I think pkillur's advice is excellent. I would NOT use the tub until you decontaminate it, which involves draining it (at least twice). It may be best to wait until the weather warms and leave the tub in some type of "hibernation" state??? I don't know. I know NOTHING about draining and maintaining a tub in freezing temperatures. Hopefully, someone in this forum from the "frozen north" can give you some advice on how you should best handle the situation. (If no one responds to the cold weather issue in this current thread, you might consider posting a new thread with a specific title about maintaining a tub in freezing temperatures. That issue is not evident based on your current thread title.) It's great that your new home has a tub. I hope you and your fiance will enjoy both. Best wishes, - Simon

Ken - It appears that your tub is a previously used tub. That's OK, but you should decontaminate the tub BEFORE you use it. Click on this link to read the article on how to decontaminate. Your tub may look clean, but you can't see what's in the pipes. Depending on how the tub was maintained, there may be micro-organisms growing inside your spa pipes. The bottom line is that you do NOT know what's in there and, therefore, the safest thing to do is to decontaminate the tub before you use it. By the way ... congratulations on your new home ... - Simon

Ken - I hate to say this, but I think you are already on the wrong track that will lead toward water quality problems, spa equipment problems, and maybe even make you itch (hot tub rash) or make you sick. As I said, the #1 priority has to be water safety, i.e., making sure your sanitation level (chlorine) is sufficient. It looks like you are already having problems with this. If your fiance (congratulations on your engagement!) is treating the hot tub like a pool, you're going to have more problems. If she's throwing in a pool size (3 inch diameter) "puck" of chlorine, you will probably have too much chlorine in your tub. Even if she's using the hot tub size "pucks" (1 inch diameter) you can also have problems. These "pucks" (assuming that they are what I think they are) are designed to be used in a floater that slowly releases the chlorine. My suggestion: Read Nitro's article. There's a link to it in my original response to your question. Lastly, showering before you go into the tub is probably a good idea, but not really necessary (unless you are very dirty/sweaty). You can shower all you want, but if you don't have the proper level of sanitizer in the tub, your water can turn dangerous. Because of the high temperatures (unlike a swimming pool) your water can turn in less than one day. Again, good luck ... it sounds like you'll need it. - Simon

Generally I agree with what hrustar says, however I disagree slightly with his statement that ... "Now for the most part, the CH is what it is based on your water. I never try to adjust it. I just work with it." Even if you have a fiberglass tub, there is an advantage to raising CH levels. My tub at refill had a CH of about 100 ppm. I raised it to 150ppm to decrease the likelihood of foaming in the future. The added calcium makes the water harder and therefore less likely to foam. The reason I said that I "disagree slightly" is that obtaining Calcium can be a little difficult and maybe not worth the trouble. You probably only need to add a couple of ounces of Calcium to raise your CH, but most pool/spa supplies sell it in 5 pound buckets ... enough to last you a few life times. Calcium is typically used for swimming pools and therefore larger amounts are needed. I solved this problem by asking my brother (who has a swimming pool) for some Calcium from his large bucket of the stuff. If you add calcium you should dissolve it first in some cold water before adding it the spa. It actually dissolves better in colder rather than warmer water. Also, calcium as it dissolves, gives off heat, so you should only dissolve small amounts (a couple of ounces) at a time. I put a couple of ounces in a large glass measuring cup ... no problems. Lastly, don't add calcium at the same time you add other chemicals because it could interfere with the calcium properly mixing with your tub water. For some more information about the proper way to add calcium, see this post. Anyway ... whether you add calcium or not ... I strongly agree with hrustar to use the pool calculator to adjust your CSI close to zero. Good luck, - Simon

Ken - Welcome to the forum. I am also a relatively new member ... I joined a few months ago. I've learned a lot since joining and want to share some information that really helped me. First off ... I can't help you with your electric bill question. I live near San Francisco, CA so we rarely get freezing temperatures. However, I can tell you the following about maintaining the water in your tub: 1. The BEST overview of making sure your water is safe (no dangerous bacteria/viruses) and comfortable is Nitro's writeup. Click here to read it. The article is long and seems rather intimidating but once you start using the diclor-then-bleach method you'll see how easy it really is. Focus on the summary section in the article. The bulk of the article explains why you need to do what's in the summary section. It takes a while to absorb this information. 2. Get a good water test kit. Dealers often provide "test strips". These are OK for quickly checking if your chlorine and pH are OK just before you jump into the tub, but they are useless for setting up your tub and monitoring the water condition. The Taylor K-2006 kit is what I and many others on this forum use. It costs about $50-60 US. Most likely you'll have order it on the internet because very few dealers carry such a comprehensive kit. (This tells you two things: 1. Most people don't maintain their water properly. 2. Many dealers offer "witch doctor" advice instead of information based on accurate water measurements.) The K-2006 kit comes in various "flavors" depending on the sanitizing method you use. If you use chlorine get the kit for that. 3. Water safety is IMPORTANT!!! Until I joined this forum I didn't realize that you can actually get sick from water that is not properly sanitized. Dealers will sell you all types of chemicals to make up for poor water maintenance (anti-foam and water clarifier are two examples). In the past my water would start to turn cloudy or foam (often an indicator that you've got some "bug" or algae growing in your tub) and I would just add some "magic" stuff to make the water look good. Also, there are many bogus "natural" sanitation methods/products on the market that aren't certified as sanitizers. You can get yourself or your guests sick if you don't maintain the proper level of certified sanitizer in your tub. Personally, I like the diclor-then-bleach method. It seems to be the easiest (and also the cheapest!) way to make sure your tub is safe. 4. Along with point #3 above, a hot tub is NOT a small swimming pool. Because of the high temperatures and the relatively small amount of water compared to the number of bathers, things can quickly go bad in a hot tub in a matter of less than one day. If at the beginning, you set up your water properly (as suggested in Nitro's overview) and then make sure that sanitizer and pH levels are properly maintained, you will have fewer problems and maintenance will be much easier. Your water will be safer, feel better, and last longer (don't need to refill as often). Good luck, - Simon

I few observations ... 1. Cloudy water and foaming is often related to things like bacteria or algae growing in your tub. I would do a good chlorine shock to kill everything and see if that improves your situation. Chlorine shock (which kills micro-organisms) is NOT the same as MPS Shock (which oxidizes bather waste, like sweat). I'm not familiar with Bromine systems (I have a chlorine tub) so I'm not sure if you can shock a bromine tub with chlorine. Maybe someone familiar with bromine tubs can answer this one. Make sure you check this out BEFORE adding chlorine to your tub! 2. Typically, you only add stain and scale remover when you first fill the tub and then add a little more when you need to add more water. Why are you adding it weekly? Also, do not add stain/scale remove and calcium at the same time. (One of the posts suggested you increase calcium to reduce foam. This may be a good idea IF you have soft water. If you add CA, don't add the scale remover for a few days.) 3. There's another current thread in this forum, see here regarding bromine and foam. It may have some good advice for you. Good luck, - Simon

QCD - Thanks for the clarification. - Simon

QCD - I have the pellet kind, they look like tiny white balls ... a little smaller than BBs. So ... that's Calcium Chloride, not calcium chloride dihydrate. Correct? The reason I ask is that the Pool Calculator calculates different quantities depending on the type of Calcium. The Leslie Pool product Hardness Plus doesn't specify what kind of Calcium it is. - Simon

Richard - Thanks for the detailed answer. I understand the situation much better now. Given what you say, I think I have the calcium chloride dihydrate form. Since this is the type I already have, it was "free" (from my brother's pool chemical shed), and it seems to be adequate for hot tub purposes, I'll use it to get my CH level to about 120ppm. My plan is to ... 1. Refill the tub and add a metal inhibitor because ... well ... this is what I've always done and it seems to work. 2. Balance my water, except for the calcium. 3. Wait a few days and add the calcium as per QCD suggestion that I dissolve it in water before adding it to my tub. I assume that adding calcium chloride dihydrate (to raise CH from 80 to 120) doesn't significantly effect other pool parameters, i.e., I won't have to rebalance again because of adding the calcium. - Simon

PaulR & QCD - Thank you for the help. I suspect that many spa owners have the same experience as I did ... Buy a spa, get a bunch of chemicals from the dealer, and then just do what the dealer says without understanding what one is really doing. I always added the metal inhibitor because that's what the dealer told me to do. I know I have hard water because our municipal source are deep wells. If I pull out the strainer screen on a faucet, rocks (tiny ones) fall out! So far I haven't had any staining or scaling on my fiberglass tub, so I'll probably continue adding the metal inhibitor just because it seems to have "work", i.e., nothing bad happened. After joining this forum, thanks to people like yourself, I started to understand a little more about why and when to add chemicals. Calcium is still a little bit of a mystery to me. For fiberglass tubs I know it's not that important relative to the issue of staining or scaling. However, I thought it was an important element (no pun intended) in water balancing. To me "water balancing" means maintaining water chemicals so as to maximize sanitation, safety, and comfort, but minimize wear and tear on the tub components (pipes, heaters, pumps, etc.). In Nitro's writeup on water balancing, he lists calcium as a key component. He says: "Calcium, Baking Soda, Dry Acid and Borates is all you need to balance your water." So ... I figured Calcium is important. Lastly, what type of Calcium should I use? The pool calculator lists two types: calcium chloride and calcium chloride dihydrate. I think I have the latter, but I'm not sure. (I went to Leslie Pool supply to buy Calcium. They only sell it in a large bucket that would probably last me a few lifetimes. So ... my brother has a pool and I got some from his bucket. However, the bucket didn't say what kind of calcium. I used the directions on the bucket regarding how much to use in a pool to infer that I had calcium chloride dihydrate, but I'm not sure.) QCD recommends using the 90% calcium. Which kind is that and how do I get it in a reasonable quantity for a hot tub? - Simon

When should I add calcium to balance my water? More specifically, how long after I add a metal inhibitor should I add calcium? Also, more generally, is there an order to adding chemicals on a new refill? I am using the diclor-then-bleach method which I have found works well for me. I'm going to do a refill on my fiberglass tub (Jacuzzi brand). Usually, I add a metal inhibitor first thing. Then I add the other chemicals. Prior to joining this forum I never added Calcium (CH). Now this will be my first refill since joining the forum and I plan on adding CH to better balance my water, ala Nitro's recommendations My tap water CH is low (<100), however I live in a hard water area. I'm on a municipal water supply, but it gets it's water from wells. My water district analysis says that my water hardness (as CaCO3) averages 186ppm with a range of 92-260. I have no idea what that means. All I know is the water here is a lot harder than other areas that I've lived (which get their water from reservoirs). My tub is over 4 years old and I don't have any visible staining/scaling problems. I've always added metal inhibitor first thing and never added CH. The adage "don't mess with success" comes to mind. In another thread on this forum, there is a discussion of the problems of adding CH and metal inhibitor at the same time. I guess this is a no-no. Yes, I know I can use a pre-filter but I don't want to spend another $50-$60 on another tub "accessory" unless it's necessary. So ... what's the right timing for adding CH to balance my water? - Simon

This is an interesting thread. I don't often think about the order of adding chemicals to my tub. In Nitro's Approach to Water Maintenance there is no mention of using a metal inhibitor. (Although, there is some discussion of using a pre-filter as a possibility, not a necessity.) Should I use a metal inhibitor and if so when? I looked up the prefilters. They seem to cost about $50-$60 with shipping. That's expensive, I think. I'm on a municipal water system, but it gets it's water from wells, so our water has a tendency to be hard, but low in calcium (<100). I'm about ready to do a refill on my tub again. I did my last refill just after joining this forum (about 3 months ago) and I've learned a lot since then. In the past, I always added the metal inhibitor (Stain & Scale Inhibitor by Spa-Kem) on a new fill. However, I never added calcium before. I did add calcium a few weeks after the current refill to increase it to about 100. In reading many posts on this forum, this is the first one that I've seen discussing adding a metal inhibitor. So ... should I add metal inhibitor on my next refill and if so when? Also, the directions on the Spa-Kem bottle says I should add it every time I add fresh water to my tub. I've never done this. Should I? By the way ... I've used a metal inhibitor on each refill and I've never had any VISIBLE scale or staining problems on my Jacuzzi brand. The tub surfaces look pretty much like new even after four years of use. I don't think I should mess with success. - Simon

Chem Geek - Richard, thank you for the thorough explanation. Since my tub is small and has relatively consistent use (only my wife and I use it about 4 or 5 evenings per week), I'll focus on keeping my FC level high enough for sanitation purposes. Because of high CYA (>100) I try to keep FC around 5ppm and not let it get below 3pmm. I shock my tub with bleach about once every two weeks or if my chlorine demand seems to go up sharply. I'm not very consistent about using MPS for oxidizing - maybe a tbls once a week. I think the chlorine shock gets rid of most of the "bather waste". If my CC gets to 2ppm, I'll add two tbls MPS. Anyway ... the diclor-then-bleach method has been working fine for me. Thanks for suggesting that I try it. I'll be changing out my water soon, so I'll get the CYA level right on the new refill. Happy New Year, - Simon

Chem Geek - I have a question about your "rule of thumb" ... It seems that the amount of additive is INDEPENDENT of the tub size. It is only dependent on "person-hours of soaking". Is this correct? If so, you would add as much chlorine bleach to a 300 gallon tub as you would to a 600 gallon tub if the "person hours of soaking" was the same. Obviously, the FC ppm's is half as high in the larger tub. Maybe I'm missing something here ... but this rule of thumb would seem to indicate that if the proper level of sanitation for a 300 gallon tub was an FC of 2ppm (minimum) then it's only 1ppm (mimimum) for a 600 gallon tub, assuming similar usage. Correct? I always thought you needed a minimum level of FC to keep your tub sanitized. I try to keep mine in the 3-6 ppm range, because I have a high CYA (>100). With a more normal level of CYA (about 30-40) I would probably keep FC in the 2-3 range. Your rule of thumb seems to indicate FC ppm is not a good measure of sanitation. Lastly, it's easy to measure FC ppm, but measuring "person hours of soaking" is very subjective. If my measured FC is 1ppm, I'll add enough chlorine to bring it up to the 3 - 5 range. Is this wrong? I'd appreciate some clarification. I think I'm not understanding an important concept. Thanks, - Simon

Chem Geek - Thank you for your detailed answer. In searching previous threads in this forum, I haven't found any comprehensive writeups on using Bromine in a hot tub. I'm looking for something similar to what Nitro has done for Chlorine based systems, like this one. Does a good "primer" on bromine exist? I like to understand (to the best of my abilities/time) things that I use. After reading a lot about Chlorine sysems on this forum, I have a much better understanding of what I'm doing with Chlorine (and other related factors, e.g. CYA). I would like to better understand how bromine systems work before I decide to make a switch. - Simon

It’s time to change the water in my hot tub. Currently, I’m using Chlorine (diclor-then-bleach method) and I’m considering the possibility of switching to a bromine based system. It’s not that I’m unhappy with using bleach, I’m just not familiar with the proper use of bromine and I’m wondering if there might some advantages. Here are my questions: 1. What are the pros/cons of chlorine vs. bromine systems? 2. Is using a floater with bromine tablets an effective way to keep sanitation levels at the proper level? (I like the idea of a floater because I don’t have to add bleach every time I use the tub. Also, when I’m away on vacation, a floater makes sense.) 3. Is developing high levels of CYA a problem with continuous use of bromine tablets? 4. Are there any special problems with bromine hot tub water balancing or tub maintenance? pH,etc? I know bromine is more expensive than chlorine, but the convenience might be worth it. Thanks, - Simon

I can't speak to your specific situation because I have a different brand of spa. However, my diverter handle broke on my Jacuzzi brand hot tub. I put off replacing it because I thought it would be difficult and expensive to replace. When I needed to replace the filters on my spa I went to the dealer. I asked about the handle and I was very surprised that they had it in stock and it was only about $5. So ... my advice is ... if you haven't done so already, ask your dealer for some help. It might be easier/cheaper than you think. Good luck, - Simon

Thanks to all who responded to my questions. For now, I'll try to keep FC in the 3-6 ppm range. Also, I'll probably change my water sooner than later to reduce my CYA levels and to "start over" again. This will allow me to keep FCs at a lower level in the future. - Simon

Jim - I am a convert to the "diclor-then-bleach" method that many people on this forum use. It is recommended by Chem Geek and Nitro (and many others more knowledgeable than I). Here's a link to an excellent WRITEUP by Nitro. It has a lot of information in it and at first I was very intimidated by it. Others in this forum encouraged me to try it, and it's really as simple as one, two, three: 1. Balance your water. 2. Use diclor then switch to regular bleach. 3. Test your water with a good test kit. I got the Taylor K-2006 kit, costs about $50-$60. I've been using the method for about 3 months successfully. Also, I've learned a lot by reading posts made by Chem Geek, Nitro, and other experienced and technically savvy forum members. (My apologies to all the other top forum contributors, I can't remember all the member name "handles" for the various top forum contributors, but there are many.) Good luck, - Simon