javajnkie

If I read you right, you agree that it sounds possible? You read my post right, except that it's just an idea. I have no evidence that it is a drainage line--the gutters drain to the ground on that side of the house and as far as I know, the only water that comes out of the line is from the pool. But I'm glad it sounds plausible! I was really just pondering aloud that it could be that a perforated drainage line merges with it at some point after the filter. Especially because of its location and because it looks like it was probably put in at the same time as the actual storm drain on the other side of the house. Since it doesn't look 35 years old (did they use PVC in the early 70s?), they were probably added later, when they were obviously thinking about drainage issues. It seemed to me that would explain the mystery--the pool leaks, seeps through the shell, and exits the line. It doesn't explain the immense volume; I'm not a hydroponics expert, but unless the shell and the ground were completely saturated, the flow rate out of the pipe due to seepage should not have exceeded the flow rate into the pool. Thanks for letting me bounce the idea off on you! I feel really dumb about this stuff most of the time. I never knew how little I knew about maintaining it until I was doing it alone, and I truly appreciate the feedback I've gotten here. ~M

I just paid about $4000 for a liner and installation for pool a bit larger than that. I considered rounding up a couple friends and doing it myself, but it would have voided the warranty on the liner. Normally, that wouldn't have scared me away, but I was investing about $2500 on just the liner. Although I probably could have saved a few hundred by measuring it myself and ordering it online, I was even hesitant about my ability to measure it right. Why I'm glad I paid someone else: Despite the expense, I am very glad I had paid extra to have it installed. It leaked immediately, and the installers took care of finding the leak, patching it, and obtaining a longer warranty for me from the manufacturer. Plus, the actual installation took only 1/2 of a day or so. I'm positive it would have taken me longer. . What I wish I had done differently: Even though I didn't do it myself, it was still a learning experience. I had researched the process, but if I could go back, I'd do things a little differently. If I'm still here when it needs to be replaced again, I think I'd shop around more, get recommendations and listen for word-of-mouth. I'd probably know what to ask too. This time, I was a little dismayed when I saw that the liner was going up with just a hosing-off of the walls. I'm pretty sure there was mold left on the walls and I wish I had spoken up or gone out and scrubbed it myself once the old liner came off. Or better yet, known to ask exactly what their installation services covered. I had read about how to do it yourself (I think 4Serendipity's tutorial!), so I knew what it involved, but I just assumed it was all covered in installation charges. I'd replace the padding under the liner. I think there wouldn't be such gaping in the corners with padding. When I was ordering the liner before the old one was removed, I was asked if I'd need new padding. I didn't know! So I asked the sales guy at the pool store what was best, and he said they weren't absolutely necessary and were more for comfort. He said the odds were that the old padding was still in pretty good shape and could be reused. I guess mine wasn't, since there's no padding. Overall, I think having it installed was the wisest choice for me. If your neighbor is hard on liners, he might be thankful for the warranty too! ~Mari

Let me apologize first for the length of this post! I'll try to keep them shorter in the future! The problem is solved, but I'm curious anyway. I figure the more I know, the more I'll be able to prevent it from happening again. In retrospect, I should have known within seconds that their was something wrong. I spent three days trying to fill the pool from my hose immediately after the new liner was installed. After the leak was fixed, it took half a day. :/ *doh*! I wasn't here when the pool guy came. The manager of the store told me afterward it was a leak in the floor of the liner. I know he didn't do anything to my plumbing, but honestly, I can't find where he patched it. When the manager told me that, I asked how it could cause it to leak from the waste line and he seemed confused (said his guy hadn't told him that's where it was leaking). They seem honest enough, so I'm hoping they gave me the full story. I tried that. And disconnecting it from the filter altogether. There has to be a T somewhere in the line past the filter, because it was not being routed through the (hayward) filter. It's always been plugged. See my response to Josh--I was wrong about it being a vacuum line. Doesn't it though!? But no. Hah. I had to actively dismiss the paranoid thought that someone came over while I was camping with the kids, dug up the underground plumbing, and rerouted everything. Everything around here except for the pool liner installation (and follow-up) is DIY these days and I know I haven't touched the plumbing out there! Completely unrelated: I did recently learn (with the help of a great DIY book) how to cut and sweat pipes when a hot water pipe started to leak! Combined with taking a saw to my kids' bunk beds and making two twins, I felt like She-Ra! Ah...it's those little things in life... Although the problem is fixed, this is interesting and I hope you come back to help me grasp how this relates to things! I'm not out there, but I have a vague memory of once noticing a closed equalizer port in the skimmer. If it's there, would it only be there if I once had a main drain?! I've never opened it, but could you explain what your line of thinking was here? How could water have been able to access the skimmer through an equalizer port with the level so low and without a main drain? Seepage? And a final question and note. I'm sorry if this is too far off topic: I don't believe the end portion (at the street) of the backwash/waste line has been here since 1973. Water exits through a large-diameter white PVC pipe, which just doesn't seem very '70s to me. I've been here for ten years, so I know it hasn't been replaced within that time. As far as I know, it ONLY drains water from the pool. However, there's a 'matching' PVC pipe extruding from the left side of my front lawn (the pool line comes out the right side). It's not connected to the pool at all, but instead channels water from a drain outside my garage door and maybe from the gutters on that side of the house. While considering the pool problem, I wondered if maybe a portion of the buried pipe is perforated to allow storm drainage too. Is that common at all?? It doesn't seem to drain heavily during rains, although I don't know that I've ever really paid attention. But the right side of the house is the 'side' with the basement, and during heavy rains, my basement gets wet. It would make sense to me that this pipe would have been designed to do double duty and drain rainwater away from the house (although, if so, it's not performing that function well). But if so, maybe the water coming out of there was seepage from the pool leak? Does that sound plausible? And does it sound plausible knowing that the volume of water coming out of that pipe during the leak was tremendous. It was draining at least as fast as it was filling! I'd be willing to say confidently that the water was coming out of that faster than the water was leaving my hose to fill the pool! Is anyone still reading? I'm sorry this is so verbose! ~Mari

Hi Josh, Sorry for the delay in responding; I've been out of town. It turns out that the brand new liner had a tear on the floor. Someone suggested that perhaps the pool used to have a main drain that was filled long ago is really the only way I can make any sense of this. The pool guy said he doubted it, but had no idea how it was draining out there--especially since by the time he fixed it, the shallow end was empty and the deep end had only a few feet of water. On top of that, I had even disconnected the backwash line from the pump all together and it was still pouring out until the leak was fixed. So the mystery remains, but I'm going with the thought that it was seeping through the concrete/vermiculite floor and draining through an old main. I'd love to know! The pool has been up and running for a few days now, with no problems! I hooked the pump up exactly like I did before, and we're good to go! So for now I'm happy...except for the extra $700 or so I expect to see charged on my water bill. The liner company extended my warranty for the seams and warrantied the patch. I thought about having them replace it completely, but I've already spent so much on water. Oh! I asked the pool guy about what the previous owners called a 'vacuum port' and told me it drained out the front. It's always been plugged, by the way. I've never used it. Vacuuming from the skimmer seemed like less hassle before I invested in an aquabot. Anyhow, he said he thought it was probably a return line that broke and was replaced long ago. We opened it and it appears to lead no where. It's plugged again. Did you figure out what the problem is with yours?? Are the issues really the same---the water level being too low for it to be draining where it's draining? Thanks again everyone! I've bookmarked the site and will definitely be back!! ~Mari

Thanks everyone. The pool guy is due here any minute. The store says he's "all mine" today, so I guess he plans to spend the day working on the issue. I'm hoping they did something wrong when they installed the liner, because they already have $4000 of my money and I don't want to part with any more. It HAS to be a structural or liner leak because it the water line in the pool is 4' below all of the suction and return ports. There is no visible way for the water to be leaving at all. So even if things were messed up when putting the multiport valve back on, it shouldn't make a difference after the water dropped below the level of the skimmer and other plumbed inlets and outlets. You're all fabulous. Thanks for your responses and efforts. I'll come post a follow up...hopefully by the end of the day I'll know something! ~Mari

It a vacuum port and is plumbed into the waste/backwash line. It's at the same level as the return valve. I don't use it to vacuum and only open it once a year--when I close the pool I use it to speed up draining the water to just below the skimmer. It's not leaking though. In addition to the water level now being about four feet below that line, the plug and gasket were replaced "just in case" when I replaced the liner last week. Where the waste discharges *may* be an inch or two below the pool's normal water level, but if so, no more than that. It discharges to the street in front of the house and the pool is in the backyard, but I'm pretty sure they're just about level. I wish I could give you some key piece of information that makes you go "aha!" but if I have that info, it's just not making its way to the front of my brain. I wonder if my kids (and the neighbor kids) would ever forgive me if they came home from school one day and found a contractor filling it. If I could get them to take up basketball, it really would make a nice basketball court! Seriously though, if I don't figure out the problem before it's time to close it, how bad will it be to let it sit empty all winter? I have nightmares about it floating and turning into Noah's arc in my backyard. Or is that just plastic/fiberglass pools? ~Mari

It leaks all the time. I haven't run the filter since last week (when the water level dropped below the skimmer), and it continues to drop. It may have hit the level of the leak today though, as the water is at the bottom step and doesn't appear to have dropped more than an eighth of an inch since last night.

Hi, I hope you all have some ideas, because this phantom pool leak issue is driving me completely insane! I've lived here nine years and haven't had any real problems with the pool until this year. Here's the story: The pool is a rectangular, 16'x36' vinyl-lined in-ground pool (the liner is over concrete? concrete/vermiculite mix?). It was built sometime between 1973-1975. There is no main drain at the bottom of the pool. Since I opened it this summer, water has been pouring out onto the street from my waste/backwash pipe. To start, I replaced the multiport valve gasket. Initially, the pool was leaking down to the point of the return and intake ports, so I assumed the leak was coming from there. The return port gasket was bad, and since I had patched the liner in the corner last year, I figured that probably had something to do with it too. So I bit the bullet and $3500 later, I have a brand spanking new liner. They installed it last week and by Thursday, I had it refilled and ready to go. I thought. Then the city knocked on my door to ask why water was pouring out to the street. By Friday night, the water had dropped down to the return and suction lines. By yesterday, it had dropped another 5 inches. Now I have about 10,000 gallons left in the pool and about 4" of water in the shallow end. The pool guys who installed the liner came out yesterday and dye tested around the stairs and the ladders. He couldn't find anything and is completely confused (as am I) as to why it's pouring from the waste/backwash line when the pool water level is now well below any plumbing. The multiport valve was opened again, and everything looked fine---water is NOT going through there to the waste line. In fact, the water level is well below the filter, pump, and the end of the waste line, so siphoning doesn't make any sense. He's coming back with some machine to test the liner for leaks. He doesn't expect to find any. The concrete patio area around the pool looks fine (no new cracks, no sinking, etc). The grass around that looks fine (no soggy areas, no patches of dead grass, etc.). The pool equipment is housed above ground in a shed about three feet from the pool. The pump runs fine when the water is at skimmer level--there doesn't seem to be any suction loss or bubbles coming from the return line. Of course, it only runs fine for a day, because the water level is dropping so quickly. Does anyone have ANY ideas? The only think I can think of is an underground plumbing leak, but the water level is too far below any plumbing now for that to make any sense. I suspected a leak around the fiberglass stairs...except that the water is coming out the waste pipe! I am at a complete loss. I'm a widow with two young kids at home and three kids in college; I just don't have another large chunk of cash to put into fixing it! I was really hoping a new liner would solve the problem! Much to my kids' dismay, I'm considering just filling it in with dirt if this is going to be an expensive fix. Although I hope someone will write back to say "no worries! This happened to me and it cost me $20 and two hours to fix," I doubt it'll happen. But I'm crossing my fingers!! Ideas?? Thanks in advance, Mari