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Thanks Richard! This is great information and certainly differs from the "set it and forget it" speech I got from the salesman I'm glad I knew better and decided to try your method as my water is sparkling! One last question if you don't mind.....How exacly does the ozonator fit into the picture? I have basically "forgotten" about it as well and just continue to add the bleach per FC tests. Recently my demand has been about 40% so I must be doing something right! From your prior post you indicated (or I assumed) that perhaps the ozonator could be detrimental to the method. Outgassing ETC. I cannot seem to figure out my spa's "cleaning cycle" but this may be another topic. I have it programmed to run 24 hours but the ozonator (attached to the circ pump) comes on and off throughout the day. I do not see any pattern and thought perhaps it had a way of determining when ozone (cleaning?) was needed but this seems too "advanced" for the electronics. In any case does the ozone provide oxidation, sanitation, both or neither and once again should I make any adjustments or just use it as "insurance". FYI...the only reason I chose 24 hours is because the circ pump also runs my waterfall and there is no on/off for it which I feel is pretty dumb. Either way its no help because sometimes we can be soaking and its still not on... so... no waterfall. Without contacting the manufacture to program something I don't think I can even turn the ozonator off without losing the waterfall. Oh well I may post this "issue" in the main area. Just curious about the "chem" ramifications for now. Thanks again for your replys AND the wonderful method you have brought to us!! Craig

BEWARE....it will just be a matter of moments before paulmn shows up to bash Arctic...

Where in the heck do you get where 6 minutes in chlorinated water has your skin absorb as much as 10 glasses of tap water? First off, most people aren't soaking with high chlorine levels -- most typically start a soak with 1 ppm FC or less chlorine so it is pretty much gone during most of the soak and then they add chlorine right after the soak. Even for those that soak with 4 ppm FC and 30 ppm CYA, at 104F around 85% of the chlorine is attached to Cyanuric Acid (CYA) and NOT absorbed into the body (see this link, for example). With CYA in the water, the equivalent FC with no CYA is around 0.5 ppm at 104F (it's lower at lower temps). The small amount of active chlorine doesn't absorb into the body -- it reacts with ammonia in sweat very quickly and more slowly reacts with urea from sweat. Virtually all of the chlorine usage is accounted for by such sweat plus a much smaller amount that is outgassed (an order of magnitude less than found in a hot shower since there is no CYA in that case). Again, where are you getting this "10 glasses of tap water" statistic? Chlorine itself isn't carcinogenic, but chlorine combined with certain organic compounds are. It sounds like you are just reading from one company's sales claims (i.e. this link). Virtually ALL of the studies showing issues with chlorine disinfection by-products are either with tap water or with pool or spa water that has no Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in it because most of the problems have been in indoor pools with no CYA. CYA acts a a chlorine buffer significantly reducing the active chlorine level and this significantly reduces chlorine's reaction rates and lowers the absolute amount of irritants such as nitrogen trichloride (some chemistry about this is here). Hydrogen peroxide does not kill bacteria or inactivate viruses as quickly as chlorine, bromine or Baqua/biguanide/PHMB or even (at 100-104F) silver ion combined with non-chlorine shock (monopersulfate, MPS) unless you were to use levels (concentration) that would be very irritating to the skin. Hydrogen peroxide is used as a disinfectant only at high concentrations. It's only effective use in spa water is as an oxidizer which is why it is used as the oxidizer in Baqua/biguanide/PHMB spas where the latter is the disinfectant, NOT hydrogen peroxide. It cannot, however, be used as an oxidizer with chlorine or bromine since it hydrogen peroxide is also a reducing agent so will consume chlorine and bromine (in fact for this reason, it can be used as a chlorine/bromine neutralizer). I'm glad it's working out so great for you, but please do not promote this for everyone else without telling them that the risk of getting hot tub itch from Pseudomonas aeruginosa bacteria is far higher using hydrogen peroxide alone rather than one of the only four EPA approved sanitizers for spas: chlorine, bromine, Baqua/biguanide/PHMB and silver ion with MPS (i.e. the "low chlorine" Nature2 recipe). Richard Richard, Sort of a hijack on your post above as I am SOLD on the dichlor/bleach method. I agree with Nitro this guy sounds like a salesman and can be ignored. In any case I posted awhile back about my shrinking chlorine levels which have now somewhat stabilized ...I look forward to trying the method with a fresh fill so I can get a better idea on actual CYA levels. Either way I asked in that prior post how using a Nature2 stick affects the plan and assumed it did NOT when you didn't comment. That was until your post which sounds like Nature2 is a different system all together. My water is clear, my PH and TA are good and generally I'm a happy camper. But what say you about my use of the Nature2 in combination with dichlor/bleach? Can I assume that a lower FC reading is ok since I am using the Silver? And, does the Nature2 allow you to use MPS to generate Free chlorine even it the TC is NOT there? My FC and TC readings have been almost identical for about three weeks now and I am strictly using bleach. Bottom line......any "education" you can provide re: Nature2 would be most appreciated. Thanks, Craig

Great question. I asked it in the Nitro Water Balance thread and have not heard. I also questioned if a product called "spa perfect" is the same as gentle spa. Honestly I'm going to invest in a Borate Test Kit and add 20 Mule Team but am curious about the other "benefits" these products market such as silky water, ETC.

Hi everyone, I have read (and re-read) this post and find the information more than valuable. I actually found the procedure somewhat fun (playing chemist). Unfortunately I did not find out about the Dichlor/Bleach method until about 1 week after my initial fill. Nevertheless I was determined to try it, bought the test kit and have been "experimenting". All in all I believe the water is very close to balanced but I am eating through chlorine (6% Chlorox Bleach) like it is going out of style. I can raise the FC to 6ppm at night and it is 0 by 12pm the next day. Now...I am in Vegas and the temps have been 100+. Temp on tub set to 99 and when I open the lid at noon it is already 102. I DO have an ozonator that is programed to run 24/7 but it is not working properly (another story) and has NOT been running much at all. I also have the Nature 2 stick and was hoping for clarification on how that may (if at all) affect things. My readings are: PH 7.6.7.8 CH 240 TA 90 CYA - About 30??? the black dot test SUX Tub is 475 Gallons @ 100 degrees I have not experimented with borates as I have yet to acquire a test kit for it and would like to know what to plug into the calculator as a prefered ppm. I did purchase some "Spa Perfect" but do not know if it is comparable to "Gentle Spa" and have NOT used it. I can not find out if it contains borates or not but it does say "PH Balanced". I also purchase some "chlorine stabilizer" (conditioner) and was wondering since it is CYA if I can skip the dichlor on the next fill by calculating an exact CYA amount? In the interim does anybody have thoughts on perhaps adding the conditioner? Even though I am chalking up the chlorine loss to heat, it may be low CYA or I could (doubt) have introduced something nasty into the spa. Assuming the later, can I just superchlorinate to "kill" it, and assuming the former are there any better CYA tests? So, I'm hoping for some input from the fine folks here and look forward to receiving some replys. Thanks.

"Swales" are typically installed to facilitate drainage. I would make sure this is NOT the case and if it is I would recomend putting in a pipe to insure you are not diverting rain (snow melt, ETC.) into and therfore against/around your new pad/spa. Just my .02

Just recieved some new information that I'm hoping for clarificarion on. The Artesian salesman informed me that the ozone generator that is listed in the literature as an upgrade (ProPure Ozone system) is NOT the system that would be installed per his original price quote. I was told that they had nothing but problems with it and it has been on recall. This "Pro Pure" model uses a mixing chamber which is what the Arctic guy recommended and the model that is apparently included with the Arteisan uses a Mazzei Injector. I'm curious what the difference is and which system is considered better. Everything I remember reading lead me to believe that the mixing chamber was better but honestly that could just have been what I remember from the Arctic guy. What's the truth and does anybody have a rough idea of the price difference? TIA.

Thanks again everyone.... Great info on the Therapy air.. Yes spatech......MORE than 4 hours... I did a mapquest and the situation worsened substantially!!! Let us know when you get it bash!

Do a little sleuthing and check out some recent topics started by me in this forum.. Hint....both manufactures that we are down to begin with an "A"

Thanks bash...Great stuff Yes ..... I think out of the items on my "list" the dealer/service is the most important and I highly doubt the guy that is 4 hours away will jump at the opportunity to drive that far to change a bulb. We also worry that after such a drive he may in some cases need to order parts which delays the repair even further. This is not an option for us and it is extremely disappointing that we will in all probability be "settling" for a tub that comes in second for this reason. Like I said earlier though, we don’t need a pity party as we were very happy with the Artesian. Just would probably be even more thrilled with the Arctic… The info you posted is exactly how we were attempting to “feel” things especially the different level seating. The Artesian however “fit” us just fine in this regard but it sounds like the Arctic may be even better. Out of curiosity did you get the Therapy Air? Can you explain it? And how do you like it? Did you get Onzen and if so how is it working out for you? Thanks again!

Thanks spatech...you make some good points. I already planned on having whichever dealer put the no trip charge in writing and in the back of my mind agreed that the two loungers were probably a waste of space. Its going to be just as much my wifes spa as mine and she felt having two was a nice idea. We do not envision having very large gatherings and if we do it woud just have to get get cozy The unfortunate part about the wet test is that the spa we would actually get is an upgrade to the one we can test and the upgrade would have more jets. With this in mind the wet test would only tell us if the seating was confortable or if we "floated" and would do little in regard to actual jet position and power. I do however see your point with regard to "less to be fixed" and can only say that we were happy with the power and contol on the Artesian. Point well taken and agreed on the chiller.....Does anybody know how this device actually works and how fast it can "drop" the temp? Anyway thanks again and I'm hoping to recieve other points of view from the knowlegable people here!

We wet teseted a Cameo this past weekend and were quoted 9k for a fully loaded floor model (2008) including the stereo and water proof remote. We were also quoted 9k for a new "un-loaded" unit (no stereo or upgraded cabinet) sorry I don't recall exactly what the difference was in "bells and whistles" but either way it seems like you could do better price wise. We did not consider this spa after wet testing another brand as there was no comparision comfort wise (for us anyway). We did however look at it because it was fairly well recomended here on this forum.

Hello to all... I posted in the Water chemistry section regarding the differences in these manufatures water quality components and would like to take that discussion a step farther here. My wife and I have made up our minds that we will be purchasing a spa from one of these companys. Through research on this board we understand, and based upon our own testing agree, that the "wet test" is the single most important factor in our decision. Unfortunately the nearest Arctic dealer is a 4+ hour drive away. At this time we have wet tested the Dove Canyon and found it to be very comfortable. This is really an understatement as the comparison to other spa's we wet tested was not even close. We know we would be happy with this unit but feel that we can get a slightly higher quality spa with more options for about the same price by going with the Arctic (Klondiker). My goal of this post is to determine how much better and if the additional options would out weigh some of the negatives. If so than we will make the 4 hour drive and actually wet test the Arctic prior to committing. Arctic positives 1. Onzen System 2. Dual (His/hers) loungers 3. Therapy Air 4. Forever Floor 5. Better insullation 6. Chiller 7. Lourvered Doors Regarding 6 and 7 we live in the desert and our summer temps are always over 100 degrees. Due to this, these features were reccomended by the Arctic dealer and are not available on the Artesian. Artesian positives 1. Direct Flow system with five pumps and seperate seat controls 2. Dealer and service from same people (right down the street) 3. Built in slot for Nature 2 Cartridge (also a negative considering the "special" stick costs $40 more) Arctic Negatives 1. Longer delievery time (6 to 8 weeks vs. 1 to 2 weeks) 2. Delaler farther away when service is needed 3. Three pumps and no individual seat controls Artesian Negatives 1. Ground prep more intensive and costly due to no forever floor 2. No chiller 3. No salt system (but could add something like the Genesis) 4. Poorer insulation (may be a positive since it won't have chiller?) Closing comments/questions For discussion lets assume that the Arctic will cost $2,500 (US) more but I honestly believe when it is all said and done it will not be that much. Also, consider that the warranties will be identical (5 years parts and labor). Are the "positives" worth this when compared to the negatives? Has anyone out there actually wet tested both of these units? Thanks in advance and if I left anything out or if any additional questions are needed let me know and I will answer the best I can. Thanks!

Thanks for the info Brian! Yes! we are very much looking forward to soaking but not in becoming chemists With that said, I have owned a few pools in the past so I understand the basics. I also don't mind learning the additional "spa" care requirements and taking a hands on approach. The Onzen system seems to be enjoyed by those that have figured it out, but those that have not, seem to have only recieved heartburn. I'm kind of at a stand still as I don't want to sacrifice enjoyment in lieu of increased maintenance/diagnostics but also realize that with Onzen working properly we will have softer water and save money down the road. I'm hoping that others will chime in and perhaps explain some advantages/disadvantagess of both systems. Thanks again!

Hello to all and thank you for providing such helpful information in the forum. While this is my first post I have done quite a bit of reading here and can now be considered a newbie in training The wife and I are in the market for a new spa...well I guess I should say our "first" spa. I posted in the Chemistry section because honestly through information we gathered here we have limited our choices to the Arctic and Artesian lines which I'm sure most would agree are quality Spa's. With this said I have several questions regarding the different Water Quality Systems that each manufacture uses. This will not be our ultimate deciding factor, but I will probably post the others in the "portable" section. So..... The Arctic we are looking at would have the Onzen system which from what I understand is unique in that it not only uses the ozone; it also generates the sanitizer (chlorine or bromine). I must admit that many of the posts I have read involve people struggling to keep this system in balance and that somewhat scares me. The salesman informed me that the advantage of the salt (is it proper to call the salt a catalyst?) is that the water maintains a soft feel. This makes sense to me since it is the same product used in water softeners, but I admit that how it actually makes chlorine is a mystery to me. Either way it makes chlorine which obviously would save us money over time by not having to purchase it. Another advertised advantage is that the water only needs to be changed 1 time per year instead of every 3 months. The Artesian uses the Nature 2 Stick which from what I understand REDUCES the amount of chlorine that we would need to use but does not “make” chlorine. It also would include an ozonator so in comparing that, the spa’s are identical. I have read mostly good things about the Nature 2 and even found out that this “stick” is available for “any” pool/spa and it’s just that the Artesian has a proprietary “slot” for it next to the filters. This is nice but the difference in the cost of the sticks is about $40 more for the Artesian “branded” stick which is not cool to us. Consider the information above how we understand things and please feel free to correct any erroneous beliefs we may have. However please consider the following questions to be based on “my” understandings and kindly provide any additional information you feel would be helpful. 1. Can (should I) use a Nature 2 in combination with the Onzen system to reduce the need to add chlorine even more? Are there any "other" advantages/disadvantages to doing this. 2. What is the difference in actual chlorine that will need to be purchased for each different system? 3. Are there other advantages/disadvantages to each system? 4. Is it true that the Onzen system can go one year between water changes? Do I truly want to do this? 5. I can add a chlorine generator to the Artesian…Should I consider doing so? In closing I'm sure I missed some questions that were originally on my mind and hope that the knowlegable people that visit this forum will contribute other ideas/concerns as they deem appropriate. Thanks in advance..