Chas

Send me one right away! In fact, can you fax it? While you're at it, fax me two please. :-)

You're up early for a Sunday morning Roger! I also agree - and I would add one thought: You might want to try running your spa without the ozone for awhile. I have had customers who can tell the very minute their ozone stops but most cannot.

Wow Guzzzz! So that would be two more kids since Top Gun. Congratulations! Amazing what they can do with modern medicine. And welcome to the "Century Club." Didn't quite make it this year, but we'll get 'em next year!

"We will not be undersold." - Sam Walton

I think they are around ten bucks each, or slightly less - I was looking into buying a bunch from the jet manufacturer, but Caldera orders them with a slightly different face plate, and I wanted them to match.

I clearly stated that is was not related.

A non-related thought. Click here....

We don't need/use floating blankets here in paradise -average temp is 72 degrees year 'round - but I have seen some types of cover leashes - you can fasten the floater to the top with an adjustable-lenth strap or two so it all folds off together. Seems like it would be very handy. Saw it from Roberts, but they might be available on other sites.

Nature 2 Is NOT a chlorine-free system. I would suggest you do a chlorine shock before you leave on vacation - assuming of course that the pH and TA are in balance - and then do the same when you return. This should be good for a couple of weeks, and I wouldn't worry about it. I would, however, worry about using your spa without chlorine....

Clay, You are looking at two very good tubs. I am fairly new to Caldera, but the very first one I wet tested happened to be the Geneva, here are my thoughts on the wet test. I think the biggest difference is the Moto Massage jet in the Envoy. I love it and miss it in the Caldera. But that is so very subjective, you will have to decide with a wet test. The Geneva has far more powerful jets - so strong in fact that to me they hurt. I ran the diverters at half and it was great! In fact, the Caldera diverters are quieter than the HotSpring. Hope that changes soon... If I got a Geneva I would change out the small Euro Jets for the Euro Pulse ones which come in the hand/wrist locations. Some dealers don't even know that is possible, but it is and I include ten of the small spinners when I sell one. We put them in on delivery, showing the owners how to swap them out themselves in case they want to move them around or purchase more later. This can make all the difference in a wet test, so be sure to ask about it. I like the Caldera Versassage jets which can be easily switched from straigh to rotary by just giving the nozzle a flick. Great idea. I think they are made by HydroAir, and you can also shut off the waterflow and this adds to the pressure of the remaining jets - not that this tub needs any help in that regard. I don't happen to fit under the shoulder jets in the Ecstaseat, so be sure to wet test that one - or at the very least dry sit to be sure you are the right size for the seat. I wish I did fit it, because it would be just right as far as jet placement. My daughter fit just right, but my son, my wife and I are all too tall for it. I like the fountains in both spas. They are very different - the Caldera seems like it was just added on to the skimmer - and in fact it was. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea: it puts the waterfall closer to the center of the tub so you get less splashing on the shell. We all love the little colored spotlights in the filter 'cave,' but we also like the Bella Fontanna on the HS. Especially the way the light travels through the water. You mentioned lower back problems - me too BTW - and the whirlpool jet is close to a nerve block! You can sit in front of it, or sort of 'hover' over the Euphoia jet (similar jet mounted up from the floor) BUT you had better be haning on. Those two are E ticket rides, if that means anything anymore. I need to go so I may add more later, but one other item I wanted to mention: The Geneva comes equipped with the ozone, color changing lights on the outside (which synch with the ones in the grab bar, tub and waterfall inside). These items would cost more on the HS - and the HS outside lights stay blue. So if you like these features, be sure to remember that you will have to add them to the HS price. On the other hand, if you don't really care about these features, keep in mind that HS will not be automatically charging you for them... I'm sick, so I hope I have made a bit of sense. Quality is about the same on both makes. The Caldera is fiberglas backed wheras the HS is not. The foam insulation is not identical as a result, but the heat-keeping ability seems to be just the same. Both covers are identical, and the control systems are as well. The circ pump in the Caldera is larger, and the ozone in the HS is better.

Chas 20 years plus in the pool and spa biz. Southern Cal, on the coast. I generally aim for answers to questions which include both sides of any issues, to help the shopper decide by simply thinking about what they want a hot tub to add to their life. I think hot tubs are fun things to have, and that they can add to the quality of life, relationships and the comfort and well-being of just about anyone. I also tend to think that it is better for most people to simply stick with any of the major name-brand players. Former Pastor and school teacher, my formal training is varied and spans over 8 years of secondary education, including four years of intensive training in aerospace vehicle technology, plus a one-year internship at NASA working with experimental aircraft. Worked as a service manager for a chain of 13 pool patio and spa stores in the SF Bay area before relocating to Southern Cal. Two offspring - Boy 22, Girl 16. My wife and I have been married for 50 years - 25 each... I have a couple of retail stores - one with HotSpring and one with Caldera. I also do land speculating and development, a couple of other things, and my son has recently launched a business doing Web development. I had a pool service company for many years (50 accounts), but sold it not long ago. I also had a repair company handling pools, spas and portable hot tubs of all makes - including warranty work for Sundance and several others, but a back injury timed with the departure of a key employee ended that. Oh, and I do not currently have a hot tub in my backyard !!

I think you are laboring under a misconception, and I would be glad to clear it up if I can. First, let's get the name right. It's the Tri-X filter. It would amaze some of the readers how vehemently you have responded in the past to cute little insult-names that others have tried to use regarding YOUR product or YOUR name, so I would politely ask you to keep this at an adult level. Next, the math. Each one of the Tri-X filters are around 65 square feet of surface area. They are about 11 inches tall, so if you spread one out it would have to be a little over 65 feet long. They have designed a ceramic-like material which allows for much deeper pleats - but is stiff enough to keep those pleats open. They put four on the pumps in most models, which is 65*4=260. Then they add one to the circ pump for a total of around 325. Those numbers may not be exact, but they are very close - and the system works in a manner which reflects it.

I got a message from a member here asking about paid advertising - and it caused me to look closer. Now I am confused. Jim, are you paying for advertising on this site - either here or on spa search? You said, "click on the add(sic) below if you want more info" once, but there was no ad on my screen. However, I use Mozilla Firefox, and have popup ads blocked, so I made the assumption that there was an ad I simpy wasn't seeing. Could you clear this up for us? I don't want to go around thinking you are a paid supporter of this site if you are not, and it would be unfair to the owners of this site for me to make any statements like that if it were not true. My apologies for commenting on this without checking facts first, I generally don't like to do that... Thanks Chas

Yes, now we know exactly what your opinion is. Thanks. You speak of change, Jim. Why not try this - just receive this as an honest offer of help: "I offer a Thermally sealed spa for sale. They work great in cold climates - I know because I have sold them here in a very cold area for years and our customers report excellant results." See? Tells the truth about your product, lets the reader know right off that they are reading the opinion of a person who sells this item and has years of experience doing so, and that you think very highly of your product. This works. Give it a try.

Jim, You ARE a spa salesman.

Normally I would agree. But now that he is a paid advertiser here, something or someone seems to be holding him on a tighter leash than normal. Perhaps it is the thought of how bad it would be to be banned from posting on a site for which you are paying for ads. Whatever it is, I think it might take him a bit longer to get himself banned here than usual. I don't even think anyone has a pool going this time- did I miss it? But out of respect for a fellow web board helper who has the misfortune of having to live in Texas, I will scale back on responses. But when he posts an incorrect statment I will politely remind the shoppers how foolish it is to listen to somebody who sells a competing product. And I will post the correct info if I have it. Shoppers: This man we are typing about does in fact sell hot tubs over the Internet. They might be just what you are looking for. But those of us who are here to help: those of us who give large amounts of time without the possibility of financial remuneration for it - spa owners and dealers alike - we would tell you that it is highly offensive to come here and read untruths and slams about the products which we believe in. If he wants to type about the benefits of his product that is one thing. But it is entirely another thing to do the things he does.

I'm interested in why any Spa Salesman - Internet or not - would try to make a case for NOT wet testing a spa. It will tell you more about the massage action, jet placement, jet performance, jet adjustability, jet nozzle interchange options, noise, comfort and a dozen other little things which simply can't be put on a brochure, or on a web site for that matter. I can't sit here and tell a shopper which is going to be better for them - intelligent design or brute force. I can only tell them that it is wise to let their backside decide. At the very least put your hands and arms in front of some of the working jets from the spa you are looking at. Try them before you decide.

Wrong. They are filters, and they work well. I have had several spas running with the TRI-X filters in them, one in my backyard, and the filters do the job. Close to a hundred spas out in the field just from our stores alone, and they are doing the job. The filter medium is thicker than the traditional paper-type filters, stronger, they will last much longer, and they can be run through the dishwasher. Other than the fact that your tubs don't have them, I haven't heard any complaints.

Just never good enough if its a HotSpring, is it Jim? I know the answer to your question about Ideal covers and Sundance.

HS - and one or two other makers - choose not to offer a bypass arrangement whereby only a small percentage of the water goes through the filter before returning to the tub, they can do in ten minutes what other spas take hours to do. Using Jim's post above, if you read it, you can see that bypassing water means that you have to move much more water to get the same level of filtration. Thanks Jim.

First of all, DO NOT drain the tub. You will need to get the pH and TA down rapidly - and work to keep them there for a few days. I wouldn't mess around, add three or four ounces of pH down if you haven't already. Then test every four or five hours to assure it is staying down - it will try to creep back up as the calcium goes back into the water where it came from. Aim for a pH of about 6.8 to 7.0, and a TA of 80 ish. Should take about three days to get rid of all of it, and if you begin to see the stuff sloughing on and piling up in the corners of the spa floor, go ahead and vac it out. Use a garden hose as a siphon to suck the loose stuff out, but don't loose so much water that you have to refill. In future, keep an eye on your pH and TA - if they tend to climb, add some 'down' on a regular basis. This is the case at my home, I add an ounce every Saturday morning.

I would agree. I like the uniqueness of the Spaudio system, and I sell several a year to folks who simply don't want to mess with speakers and wiring, but I wish it could be had for less money. They have created a special amplifier which pumps out over three hundred watts per channel, and can live in the envioronment of the motor compartment. That pushed the price up a bit...

On October 9 Jim said, "According to the ANSI and UL, you must use two separate areas of inlet for safety. Having one area with filters is not safe according to the safety experts who put the ANSI and UL together. " That's obviously wrong, or the tubs would not meet the ANSI/UL listing which ETL uses as the standard. HotSpring spas are ETL listed, and you can very easily confirm that by going to the ETL web site yourself. Common sense would tell you that having NO suction fittings in the bather area is safer than having four, five or even six of them. I'm sorry you don't like HotSpring spas Jim, but this argument of your is showing a bit of wear. Jim said, "On a filter pump that does not move enough water to kill anyone, you can use 100% no bypass filtering." So strange to see you trying to scare people away from the very product you sell for a living. HotSpring has been UL and/or ETL listed for far longer than your spa resale company has been in existance. I know you don't understand this, but having the small circ pump go through a filter is an extra - a bonus - which only makes it easier to keep the tub clean and clear. And it works, BTW. Jim said, "We use a special filter system design that allows for up to 200 GPM of filtering while in the spa." That's commendable. Jim said, "I feel that spas not following the ANSI safety standards, are the real preditors of consumers dollars. The absolute only reason for not following these safety standards is for profits and for no other reason." I couldn't agree more. Why, then, do your spas not appear on the ETL or UL web sites as listed? Why should a consumer take your word over that of a company who helped to formulate the ANSI standard which both UL and ETL now use? Keep in mind that while you may know a lot about spas, and I certainly don't deny that you do, you are not a 'papered' engineer, and the big brand tub makers use real engineers to design in safety, comfort, performance and style. Jim said, "The otehr issue is that the rate of filteing is inadequate to filter the water properly by using a tiny circulation pump." The small circ pump pulls water through a filter as a bonus - added filtration, 24 hours a day, which only makes it that much easier to keep the tub clean and clear. It also makes it possible to introduce Ozone 24-7 for those who opt for the ozone system. It is not, nor has it ever been, the primary filtration system in a HotSprng spa. I have told you this on many occasions over the years, and I have even had you quote it back to me - so I know that you know it. For somebody who claims to know so much about HotSpring, you show over and over that there is a certain lack of understanding about the details of the product. I would politely suggest that you stick to telling us about the product you know, and give up on the competition bashing.

I will also agree that if the 48 hour window is due to an order going in - especially if you and the dealer are far away from the So Cal plant - then you will have to wait until the next order goes in. But that should happen again - if not the dealer is in trouble. If it is a general way of doing business, then it does not bode well for after-sale service etc. I have tried to get folks to hurry up so I can add their spa to this week's order, but I live nearby the (Watkins) plant and can get it next week if not this week. I sometimes forget about long shipping distances.

That type of pressure selling is common among the Cal Spa dealers I have worked with over the years. If you like the spa and the price, go for it. But if you want to take longer to make up your mind, I would certainly suggest looking at other brands and perhaps wet testing. If you call the Cal spa dealer and ask for an extension, you should be able to get one - if he can "Swing" the price today, he can do it again. If not, shop elsewhere.