Chas

I don't think there is anything wrong with looking deeply into this, but I think what at least I am trying to convey is that if you go with a major name spa, you will have a good shell. It might have one type of construction or another, but they are going to stand behind it and you'll have years of trouble-free service. On the other hand, even if you go with a stainless steel spa - and yes, they do make them - but perhaps the company goofs up on some part of the alloy choice or the welding or whatever, you will have a problem. But if they messed up on lots of tubs and they are a small company, they might not be around to help you out with it. Tough shell material, wimpy company. So do lots of digging, ask lots of questions, choose the shell of your liking. But in the end, it is the company behind the shell warranty that makes the biggest difference. I hope I mentioned this: HotSpring uses ABS-backed Acrylic, which is coextruded. That means that the plastic factory casts the Acrylic sheet, and then while it is still hot they cast another layer, this one of ABS. Since the two sheets are coextruded in this manner, they truly become one. Also, the specs of the Acrylic sheet are custom tuned to this application. As a result, they are not 'laminated,' and hence cannot delaminate. Caldera uses cast Acrylic, but they back it with hand-laminated fiberglass. And, they do this fiberglass work in a wonderful place where there is no EPA. Because of that, they can use the 'hotter' resins, epoxies and adhesives which give a much lower likelyhood of delamination down the road. This wonderful place is not imaginary, Dr. Spa just went on vaction there. Mexico.

I wish you both the best. I hope you have sent emails to the moderator before you leave..... Please.

Let me address this issue as it pertains to the brands I sell: HotSpring - You can shim all but the Grandee and Vista. Tiger River - You can shim all three models. HotSpot - best if not shimmed, other than to pick up low spots of dips in the concrete Solana - You can shim all three models. Caldera - Should sit in contact with the slab as much as possible. If you have to level, you should build a deck, use custom cut wedges (lots of them) and/or create a level surface somehow. As far as the Watkins products go, they have a note in the "Predelivery Instruction" booklet about it, and they say that sitting firmly on a slab with a slight slope for water runoff is best. There ya go.

Chris, you da man!! What a hoot! I was thinking about snapping a few pictures of a filter area on a Grandee, but they would not have communicated nearly as well as what you have there. And there is no way I was going to get any good-looking human butts to include in the picture today... And, lest any should be concerned, the wall between the filter area and the bathing area has three main areas of flow: the skimmer door itself, and two vent openings through which water can freely flow as needed to keep the thing that much safer, and to allow for the large water flow rates which the bigger pumps provide.

Trigger, your point is well taken, and well made. There are occasional tragic incidents in which somebody gets hurt or even loses their life due to suction entrapment. These are usually chronicled in the trade publications as well as the news. It is very important to note that to date none have involved a Portable Spa. So far, they have always involved a commercial pool/spa combo, a commercial spa, or an in-ground spa built like a pool. What I mean by that is that these spas have a skimmer at the waterline, and suction on the floor just like a swimming pool. Some of the accidents occur because a maintenance guy leaves a valve in the wrong position, shunting all the suction to the floor drain. This can't happen in a Portable spa which has a UL or ETL listing. In fact it also can't happen in a home pool, home spa, commercial pool, commercial spa, or in-ground spa which has been built in the past ten years or so because the rules do not allow the drain fittings and the skimmer to be run on separate lines - just so this cannot happen. They now must be plumbed together so if one is off, the other is off. Other accidents revolve around pools or spas with damaged grates or 'anti vortex' plates.

I think any of you who have bothered to read these rants have it figured out: Watkins has designed a different way of doing things. There are companies who put suction fittings in the bather areas, and then there is a company who puts filters on every suction fitting - and segregates those filters away from the bather area. These companies, or at least the ones who have pursued ETL listing, not only comply with the ANSI standard - some of them exceed the suggestions for safety. I know of one company who does NOT, and it is ironic that the person who makes the largest number of specious posts about it happens to be the proud 'designer' of those very tubs. I am going to ask a favor -- if you are tired of these rants, tired of this one person hijacking every thread, tired of the constant flow of childish ranting about a subject which has no basis in fact, tired of the name-calling, elementary schoolyard banter and uninformed posting along with constant posturing, please send note to the moderator. I have, and they don't seem to care. But if more of us do the same, perhaps we can get this cleaned up. The folks who provide this forum have said this, "If you have questions, complaints or suggestions regarding this policy, please redirect your comments to webmaster@bigfishpublications.com"

"With that link though, you are beginning to resemble Jim the Jim however!" I'll be sure to watch myself in future. Thanks for the heads up! "My wife and I did wet test the HS Grandee and it was nice, but we immediately (same dealer showroom) went into an Artesian and liked it better. I guess different strokes for different folks." Keep in mind that the best spa in the world is the one that ends up in YOUR yard. You'll love either one! "One thing I would like to ask is whether the little circulation pumps found in most units burn out regularly or do they wear out quicker in a totally insulated unit faster due to heat build up in their chamber vs. a fully foamed vented product?" The TP units I used to sell were Coleman, back when. They didn't have the small circ pump at the time, and they put the equipment in an insulated/vented box, not in the hot air environment. TP spas have changed, and ironically Coleman has gone to FF. But the life on most of these little circ pumps is around 7 years, give or take. They are not as sensitive to the temp because they are not vented, have one moving part, and are 'water cooled.' I know that sounds strange since the water going through them is warm to us, but the constant flow of 102 degree water helps them to maintain a stable temp and so the heat is not as much of an issue. The jet pumps are a different story! A Laing Circ pump is about $150 for the part after the warranty, and anyone handy with a screwdriver can put one in if you want to save a service call.

This is Amercia, and you have the right to be wrong. Kidding! But it is easy to count jets and say that HS doesn't have very many. Take the Vista: there are two jets called the "Soothing Seven." That is actually 14 nozzle in two housings, but of course if WE called it that the competition would scream. Then there is the Dual Moto Massage: it covers your entire back, but it is called one jet. To do the same with regular jets would take at least a dozen small jets or half a dozen larger jets. Also, keep in mind that HS gives you plenty of variety: you can run the small jets regular or extra spinny by popping in a spin nozzle. They are also very mellow yet effective with the face plate and no nozzle at all. Same goes for the Larger Hydromassage jets: you can run them straight, open or spinner. No, that doesn't add to the number of jets, but it is very nice to have that much variety and adjustability, and is often overlooked in a quick glance at the 'specs' page of a brochure or web site page. They must be makin' some folks happy, they continue to gain market share - even in a slow year. Blatant link to HotSpring

Thank you Tom. That certainly answers some questions.

What are you talking about? I already owed you before this great post! Thanks.

"Altazi here. I know some of Jim's points are contentious, as there are many here in favor of full-foamed spa construction, but by and large, his advice posted above seemed reasonable to me. Rather then tell the readers to ignore everything he said, could you please address each of his items separately? This is a good opportunity to educate many of us new to the world of spas." Fair enough. First, I have been in business selling spas since 1986, HotSpring since 1987. I worked for other people selling HS prior to starting my own business. I have, over the years, sold many other brands alongside of HotSpring. I fully admit that I think HotSpring is a fine tub. I also realize that there are other brands which may very well be the right choice for you. Here we go:

Ok Jim, let's take what you just said and see how it compares to the assertion you make that UL dropped HotSpring. ETL uses the UL/ANSI standard to test spas. So, a spa which is ETL listed has to have been tested to the very same standards as a spa which is UL listed. HotSpring is ETL listed, so they must be able to meet the UL standard. So how can you go around claiming that they 'lost' their UL listing? HotSpring is not the only manufacturing company to swap from UL to ETL, and I don't just mean in the spa industry. Look Jim, just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. How did we get from Rovel to ETL?

Many companies hire labs to do reports like that one. I like that report because they did eight spas, from different makers. But there is no mention of use of the spas, nor is there any mention of the simple fact that the Arctic cover is much thicker than the others. I wonder if the Vanguard would have moved to the top position if it had been fitted with a cover as thick as the Arctic? That's not a big deal: if you want to buy a HotSpring and order a thicker cover you certainly can. Here is another test, run at the request of Watkins MFG corp, on HotSpring tubs. This is also a test run under controlled conditions: just like the ARC study mentioned above. They put the tubs in a chamber and controlled the temp and humidity. They also used a 110 volt spa, and they appear to have run open/closed cycles, but it doesn't specify people actually getting in the spa - which is also the same as the ARC study. Energy test on HotSpring spas

What difference does any of this make? I was told it was dicontinued, it was in the trade publications at the time, and I believe it. Just as you have asked me to 'prove' it was, I will have to let you try to 'prove' it wasn't. I know you saw the following article from 1992 because you quote the two links which appeared in your own post above yet you failed to mention it because it shows support for my argument and not yours. Very interesting way to deal with the 'truth' Jim. Here's the bottom line: a consumer can get a good product with a good shell material from many good brands. You can choose thermoplastic shells, with or without fiberglass backing. If they want to order from the HS "Classic Series," they can get the 'Endural,' and if they buy from D1 they can get the 'UltraLife.' Now, as you have said, if HS or any other maker was to go order sheet material in large quantity, they could pretty much write their own ticket on how that sheet is made. Thickness, chemical makeup, and other attributes could be selected, they would not have to buy off the shelf. But instead of that convincing you, you use it as an argument AGAINST the obvious: Dow cut Rovel. They are a huge company, and they want to sell MILLIONS of whatever they make, be it gray paint to the Navy, airbags to Ford, bumper covers to General Motors, or whatever. They looked at the 50,000 tubs per year as small potatoes, and dropped it. The camper shell companies, outdoor playground makers, and all sorts of other buyers didn't add up to enough for them to keep it up. So, if you want to find Rovel, I'm sure you can. People have purchased the rights to license it - that means that they can have it made by Dow, Monsanto, 3M, or any of a dozen other fine folks. When given the chance to buy the rights, HotSpring moved on to another material, and so did D1. Are they both using Centrex? You would have to ask them, because they both claim to be using proprietary materials, and my guess is that they have contracted to have a material made which is just right for the job. They must like the results they are getting, they both offer good warranties on the shells. Just for those who care any more about this thread, here is the article that I got by Googling 'Rovel Plastic.' I put the copyright info below for proper credit. Note the two links which Mr. Arjuna quoted, even though he did not appear to like the fact that the whole article seems to back up my assertion. ____________________________ Suppliers locked in their own civil war [/size=2]- plastic industry - Materials '92 Ward's Auto World, Sept, 1991 by Stephen E. Plumb Find More Results for: "rovel plastic " General Signals, Inc -... Survivor gate arm -... Plastics' traditional enemy has always been steel. Now, instead of teaming up against a common opponent, it's plastics vs. plastics: thermosets battling thermoplastics, polymer against co-polymer. Major battlegrounds include bumper systems, body panels and under-the-hood applications (see chart). And future victories will be decided by issues such as weight, temperature and impact resistance, recyclability and cost. Skirmishing includes a urethane thermoset defeating a conventional thermoplastic on the 1991 Olds 98, and a new flexible sheet-molding compound (SMC) competing with thermoplastic an reaction injection molded (RIM) materials. More recently, a thermoplastic elastomer snapped up territory held by urethane, capturing a 1,000,000-unit air-bag enclosure prize. As in any war, a great deal of churning is taking place, with some companies relinquishing certain segments and others advancing quickly to fill the voids. Advertisement Mosanto Chemical Co. of St. Louis, Mo., and Atlanta, Ga.-based Amoco Performance Products Inc., for example, are racing to kick up production as their competitors pull products from the market. Monsanto is increasing output of its Centrex weatherable polymer to take up the slack for a similar material called Rovel produced by Midland, Mich.-based Dow Chemical Co. Dow is phasing out of Rovel production. Amoco's Marietta, Ohio, plant, meanwhile, is gearing up to take over business created when ICI Americas Inc.'s Advanced Materials group decided to close its Victrex polyethersulfone (PES) plant in North Carolina. Meantime, rising demand for safety-related components and other growth markets are attracting new competitors. Posting a major triumph is Hoechst Celanese Corp.'s Engineering Plastics Div. in Chatham, N.J., as the company's Vandar thermoplastic elastomer is selected to produce more than a million air bag enclosures, unseating urethanes and other thermoset materials on '92 model cars. Among the benefits Hoechst claims for Vandar vs. urethanes are better low-temperature elongation, improved dimensional stability and retention of properties over time -- plus greater in-process recyclability. It also cycles about 20% faster than competitive thermosets, Hoechst maintains. Another thermoplastic, Du Pont Co.'s Bexloy K 550, is already in the driver's seat for 1993. The Wilmington, Del.-based company says the material will be used on the fenders of Chrysler Corp.'s new LH midsize cars arriving on market a year from now. Winning an exterior body panel award is rare for a thermoplastic because the material typically cannot withstand high-temperature electrodeposition ovens during the painting cycle. "It's a very big deal to survive 200degrees]C (392[degrees]F) and not look like a potato chip," attests Martin D. Drigotas, Du Pont's senior development programs manager. Not to be outdone, SMC gets a boost from Troy, Mich.-based Budd Co.'s Plastics Div. Budd's new Hi-Flex promises to go head-to-head against thermoplastic and reaction injection molded (RIM) materials in vertical body-panel applications. Because of its stiffness, SMC has been used in horizontal panels -- hoods, roofs and deck lids -- but only rarely in fenders, doors and other vertical panels. Budd's Hi-Flex, however, is more damage-resistant, weighs less and is twice as flexible as conventional SMC, Budd says, yet it is less costly than competitive plastics. SMC isn't the only thermost on the move. A new urethane from BASF's Automotive Urethane Specialties unit in Wyandotte, Mich., and Atoma International Inc.'s Howell, Mich.-based Versatrim Div., supplanted conventional thermoplastics in the door panels of the 1991 Olds 98 and is being added to the '92 Olds 88. Interior trim parts, long dominated by plastics, also are caught in the war zone. Exxon Chemical Co.'s Exxon Chemical Polymers arm in Houston, Texas, for example, is attempting to dethrone acrilonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) with its high-crystallinity polypropylene (HCPP) Mytex material. Fueled by OEM complaints about ABS warping on upper interior trim applications, Exxon touts Mytex as a high-quality, low-cost alternative. Mytex cost 35% less than a painted ABS part. The war, it seems, is not only one of plastics vs. plastics, but also price. COPYRIGHT 1991 PRIMEDIA Business Magazines & Media Inc. All rights reserved. COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group

And BTW - the spa did NOT lose it's UL listing.

Not quite convincing: the link you posted is for USED camper shells. Yes, some of them may very well be made of Rovel. I had a Brahma shell on a 1989 Chevy truck. I sold it long ago. To get this thread back on topic: ABS-backed Acrylic is a fine choice. The most popular tubs in the industry are made that way, and they have a 7 year warranty. Want to have fiberglass backing? Fine. Go look at Caldera. The choice is up to the consumer - but I would put comfort, performance and style ahead of the shell material.

The company which made Rovel stopped making it.

Rovel was made in off-white only. The color name was "Ivory." If you were extremely careless with the pH, it would turn white from the waterline down. It was much later when they changed to offering pure white shells. I have not seen those discolor, or I should say I have not seen them stain - I have seen white tubs with stains from trees/shrubs/flowers - but once the tub was filled and running the chlorine took the color off slowly. I have seen lots of the way older tubs where the owners have scrubbed right through the Rovel and exposed the ABS by using coarse scrub pads or rags and Comet. THOSE babies turned all kinds of color from yellow to brown! But only where the ABS was exposed. Today's shells have been trouble-free for many years. I haven'd had any of the stuff JA is talking about, and I have sold these things since 1987.

There ya go!

No. I got a note saying he was banned from another board - I thought it was this one. My mistake. The moderators here don't seem to care at all.

I would like to narrow the field to 3 or 4 tubs to wet test. Here is what we are looking for (in order of priority): 1. Safety - I have a 6 year old and and 3 year old girl who will be using the tubs ONLY when myself or my wife are in the tub with them. Two concerns...hair getting caught in pump suction and/or electricity issues. HotSpring is one of the only tubs on the market which does not put any suction fittings in the bather area. They run all water through filters before it enters the pumps and plumbing, and they put those filters in an area segregated from the bathing area. However, just about any tub with a UL or ETL listing will be safe, IF you keep the filters clean. These tragic accidents you read about from time-to-time happen in commercial and in-ground tubs, usually built in place or built before safe designs were incorporated. However, as a tub owner, you find another reason to keep the hair out of the water: foam! It is easy to foam up a spa by dunking heads into the water, so most long-term spa owners tell the kids to play and 'swim' elsewhere and keep the spa as a 'mellow zone.' 2. Low Operating & Maintenance costs - I live in Park City, Utah. We have COLD winters and I don't like wasting energy (or money). Most any name-brand tub will give you low operating costs. This is a hotly-debated issue here, but in reality the difference in operating costs has more to do with keeping your spa cover closed and in good shape, and how much you use the jets. Also, a larger spa will always cost more to run than a smaller one - surface area - and a spa with huge jet pumps is obviously going to cost more to run than a tub with more moderate pumps, given the same amount of use. 2a. Warranty - an excellent warranty would be a big plus. Read them. Don't panic about the exclusions too much - again, if you are going with a name-brand player the warranty is there to help you and them both. However, there is one notable tub maker who offers a 'lifetime warranty' on the shell. Read it - they actually offer seven years, and then from that point on you have to ship your spa back to the factory for further coverage. I am not knocking it: most warranties end at seven years period, so they are offering something good. But it sounds like something very different when they simply call it 'lifetime.' Also, there are different levels of coverage according to the different levels of spas in a makers lineup: HotSpring and Tiger River are the same, but the Hot Spot and Solana spas have shorter warranty periods. This is true in most brands, but some don't make it as easy to spot and you may end up ordering a spa that does NOT carry the warranty you were told about or shown. Easy fix: see the warranty in writing for the model you are buying before you sign. 2b. Dealer reputation/fairness/attitude 3. Ease of use - we rent our house to families on ski vacations occasionally. I'd like something as simple to operate as possible. You will want ozone - with a constant circulation pump. This is not an end-all cure-all, but it does help with tubs which sit most of the time. Better filtration is important here: the folks who rent from you will leave amazing things behind. It is natural since they most likely don't own a tub at home - and because they will often come home from a hard day on the slopes and jump right into the tub. This is hard on any tub, but more so on units without top-notch filtration. 4. Sits 6 to 8 people. Primary use of tub will be entertainment. Hydrotherapy is secondary. I would then look for open seating. In the HotSpring line, that would be the Grandee as mentioned above. It is the largest tub, and doesn't have a recliner. It also has smaller pumps and fewer jets than some of the other HotSpring models - enough for you to enjoy a great massage, but not so many as to run up your electric costs or make a ton of racket when running. 5. Non-wood siding. I love the look but don't see myself staining the side of the tub every six months. Most tubs offer this now. 6. Look of unit. It would be nice if the tub were "gorgeous" and had something that made it "pop". I've heard the light units in tubs can be nice. This is very subjective, of course, but at least know this: most tubs have color-changing lighting as standard, or available, and most now use LED lighting behind a lens. I would stay away from tubs with dozens of little LED lights all over simply because those are each a penetration of the hull of the unit, and add to the leak potential as well as the complexity. Water features are nice, but keep in mind that they invite splashing and playing by the younger visitors in a rental environment. The Grandee has a mellow little 'stream' type of waterfall, back lit in blue. Jacuzzi/Sundance has some great-looking sheet waterfalls, back lit as well. There are a lot to look at - Even the Tiger River tubs: Caspian and Bengal - have basic waterfalls backlit in blue now. Thanks everyone -- I appreciate your input! No charge. Did we mention a wet test? Very important. And if you can find a dealer or service tech who you would trust with a key to your vacation home, so much the better - unless it is easy for you to meet them there when something comes up, or in case of a long-term power outage. OR - if you plan to use a management company, be sure they know about tubs. I don’t know how important this would be except that renters can be tuff on any tub… I have cared for lots of tubs in vacation homes on the beach, and most need to be drained after every family leaves, especially if they are there for a week. And, if power boxes or shut offs can be mounted outside, somewhat near the tub, so much the better.

Look at it this way: HotSpring has been using the coextruded material with foam backing for close to 29 years. They sell more spas than most of their competition combined. They have a 7 year warranty, which you can download at their web site. The foam is put on in layers: first a 30# density about an inch thick is sprayed on the back of the shell. This is done by NCR machine in a temperature-controlled enviornment. Then the plumbing is installed and many tests are done. Then the plumbing is encapsulated in a thick layer of 10# foam. This supports the plumbing and quiets it, but it also adds to the structural integrity of the whole unit, as these plumbing areas act as beams all the way around the tub. After much more testing etc, the cavities are filled with a mixture of 1 and 2# density foam, and finally a 60# density layer is floated on to seal the bottom of the spa. That last layer is almost as hard as the top of the tub - and is obviously put on as the spa sits inverted. To see the huge machine pick up the spa after all the foaming is done - it grabs it in a giant clamp that looks like something that should be used to crush cars at the metal yard - and flip it over in a couple of seconds is amazing. Most any other spa couldn't stand the pressure of just that one machine: that made a believer out of me! The things are monolithic - you do NOT need to fear a tub which is 'held up by the insulation.'

I agree - in fact I hope I didn't sound like I was discouraging this in my post.

I don't know if testing at a home show or other similar event is a wise idea. First of all you will not have privacy, of course, and aside from the personal comfort aspects of it, this means that you may not really get a chance to try out the various jet settings and/or diverter settings in each seat. This is very important because I have seen plenty of people do wet tests wherein they litterally 'wrote off' one or more seats as being worthless to them until I came over and either swapped out some jet nozzles, flipped a diverter, kicked a pump to a different speed, or pointed out an air adjustment they had overlooked. I have also had folks tell me that another brand was much more potent - but I know from experience that overzealous jets can get old real fast once the tub is in your yard. In fact I have had those same people sit still and relax in front of a Moto Massage or even a simple trio of spin jets for a couple of minutes, and watched as they began to relax and realize that pounding is not what you want from every seat every time. So go to any events you can find - but use them to get a feel for who is in your area and what they have to offer. But when it comes to the wet test, try to do it in a dealer's showroom and take your time. If a dealer does not allow or encourage a wet test, call the manufacturer and politely ask where you can wet test their product. If they direct you to your local dealer as they should, simply say, "I tried there first but they will not let me wet test." You'll be amazed at how fast you'll get a wet test arranged. Manufactures usually encourage wet tests.