arnspa
-
Posts
123 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
1
Posts posted by arnspa
-
-
I have had the same issue with the master spa doubling my bill. I had thought about the time, but wasnt sure how to do it. Let me know what you figure out.
Joe, A timer only makes sense if you're on a 'Time of Use' billing. As I described, at 'Peak Time', summer cost for us at 1-7 pm is 2 1/2 what it is at night (29 cents per kWh vs 8 cents per kWh). Obviously, we want to be off-grid at the high cost hours.
My electrician is coming Thursday to install a 'connector', that is a switch that can control 50 amps, and a timer. Each of these will be in a separate box. A 110 volt line will control the timer, which will signal the 220 volt, 50 amp, connector to control the spa.
He says $800. Very expensive, I say. Had I been able to readily find a configuration and source on line I would do it myself. Not finding that on line, I asked here for help and to my electrician. After a week, my electrician has responded. And here I got zero useful feedback (excuse me, michelle).
My guess is that the electrician will pick up $150 in material at Home Depot, and insall it for $800 total.
I guess I will call that a bargain, and think of all the gas money I saved.
-
IS THERE NO ONE HERE who has experience with putting their tub/spa on a timer? Am I breaking new ground for all?
-
In one word: NO!
You say "steam cleaner". I'm wondering if you don't mean high pressure wash? In any case, I say keep this out of your tub!
WHATEVER you had in mind, don't buy a "steam cleaner," that is SO much 1950! (I have to check, Yes, you really said "'steam cleaner"!)
And so, charity leads me to think you must have meant a high pressure wash? This would not mean STEAM, but for all that why mess with with a high pressure cleaner in your tub? Is there dog and raccoon feces there? Have you been using it for a compost pile?
WHATEVER, I suggest you use 'Atomic Disfraction' (I hereby declare trademark on this obvious piece of baloney) Atomic Disfraction can do what other cleaners cannot.
The very first thing you try in your spa is Elgre Cleanser (also know as elbow grease), though we can sell you this too. ELGRE is a patented cleanser guaranteed to do something. Please apply with a scrub brush or pad and water. This can remove about any weird stuff in your tub. If this doesn't work, try harder. In any case, do not buy a "steam cleaner", better to invest your money in Treasury Bonds. or send a certified check to the address below.
OOPS! I now see that Hot water was answering at the same moment as I was. And so I defer to Hot water!
-
You ask what you might [re]consider before you buy. I would reconsider the sound and lights in the jets. Our MasterSpa H2X (1300 gals) has lights around the rim not in the jets, but I've noticed that after we show new guests how cool the lights are, changing colors and all that, we turn them off to admire the stars. AND, after we shoot water up everyone's backside, we turn off the jets so we can talk. We passed up the stereo system (damn expensive I thought). We have out-of-the-tub speakers from the house audio. If you're thinking of an audio driven light system, we and friends would tire of that in about 10 minutes (3 tunes).
Each to her own, but what you describe I see as, 1) expensive, 2) first to require maintenance, 3) quickly discounted as a value.
I must admit there was a time in my life I was on match.com and I would have loved to invite every woman over to a throbbing time in the hot tub. But that would only have worked for two dates. By the third date any woman I was interested in would have wanted to turn all that off and talk. But for all that, 'de gustibus non disputandum'
-
I'm interested to learn if there are any published comparisons of the MasterSpa H2X series to the newer Endless Pool units.
For years my wife, a swimmer, was interested in the Endless Pool ads, we even got a Video demo years ago. But it was 'in ground'. When we moved from Cincinnati to NoCal she wanted a hot tub. But when we saw the MasterSpa H2X series combining spa and swimming we were intrigued. We went home to get our swimsuits to try it out. We bought the smallest of this series, the H2X Crosstrainer2. (8/08) 1300 gals, 12' x 8', a very large hot tub, a small swimmer. The other MasterSpas H2X, at 14' and at 17' (2500 gals) have a different 'swim system' than ours, those have a 'propeller', ours has jets. My wife seems happy to swim against the jets. And we have a lot of room for friends. We've had eight adults in it, no crowding.
But shortly after we bought ours, Endless Pools started advertising something similar, above ground with seats at the end. We like ours, but I hesitate to recommend it to others if the Endless versions are as good or better.
Anyone got the Endless swim spa version, or seen comparative reviews?
-
Hot Water, I'm happy to have your last word on this. Let me clarify what I have said here. I never intended to suggest that anyone do their own wiring. Plus I never imagined that anyone would join white and green wires at any place except the at the busbar in the main service panel (as you say). But your focus on that possibility here may be useful for others.
-
Just pay a qualified electrician, including getting a permit if that's what's required in your area, followed up by an inspection.
Let me mention that I got 3 bids, $1700, $2600, and $3900 for my 50amp run of 80 ft, in conduit, some above and some below ground, and GFCI subpanel. (And the high bidder charged me $29 for the bid!) We are in a high cost neighborhood, I'm sure the low bid would be half of that elsewhere)
If you don't already have an electrician whose rates you trust, you might shop around. The bids I got helped me find someone I've used with confidence since.
About the older 20 amp system? Maybe you can get a little salvage credit on it?
-
OK, maybe I was a little peeved to be sent to a site that after registrations, etc, had nothing to say about the situation I was talking about.
I take it that you agree with me that Dr Spa is wrong to say or imply that a ground rod at the subpanel is dangerous and represents a potential hazard (UNLESS one has installed the grounding rod as a substitute for for the neutral ground wire return to the main service panel).
-
Dr Spa, Are you blowing smoke at us? When I go to the link you offer, after passing through the ads, registering with passwords, my company info, and saying I don't want their magazine, I find nothing to counter my argument for putting a ground rod at the subpanel.
Their article on 'bonding, grounding, and earthing' wisely says that a ground rod shouldn't serve as the neutral ground for your equipment, and they tell that some computer controlled machinery manufacturers have prescribed exactly that in their installation manuals, contrary to NEC. But I never advocated substituting a ground rod for the return neutral ground wire to the main service panel. Indeed, I did not suppose that any fool would attempt or advocate that. (But as hot water says, not all electricians know code)
The article describes and diagrams a situation in which absence of neutral grounding wire and presence of a ground rod substitute at the equipment creates a hazard potential between that ground rod and the ground rod at the main service panel. Not what I advocated, and not what I took you to be warning against. I took you to say that even in the presence of a neutral grounding wire that a second grounding rod created a hazard.
There may be other articles that would counter my suggestion for a grounding rod at the subpanel (for longer runs), but I did not find them at this site. If you know of such, I would like to see them. (Anyone who shows me my errors is my friend)
NOTE: I DO think that the effort to use different terms to distinguish 'bonding, grounding, and earthing' which was once all called 'grounding' to be very smart.
We should start talking of 'earthing rods' -- sounds clumsy, but may help limit some confusion. Of course, some confusion respects no limits.
-
Pathfinder may have the answer for you. Your deck and that wood fence may act like a drum. I have heard complaints that some of the noise abatement fences erected along US highways actually serve to amplify sound rather than deaden it.
I also recall a terrible racket coming from the apartment above us years ago. I went up to complain and discovered that the racket we heard downstairs was coming from a small electric fan on their bed stand that barely whispered. The bedstand was acting like a large drum amplifying that vibration and sending it through the wooden floor and was a WHUMP-WHUMP-WHUMP over our heads. I found it hard to believe the fan was doing it, and I had to get the neighbor to come down to convince him I wasn't a kook. They were comfortably sleeping next to a fan that made it impossible for us to sleep downstairs.
The solution? I gave him the Cincinnati Yellow Pages. He put it under the fan.
-
The issue here though is that the ground rod at your panel is NOT intended to, nor provides an actual ground for your home's electrical system. DIRT is a poor conductor of electricity (even though dirt is also called "ground"). The reason a main electrical panel is grounded through a grounding rod is to limit the voltage imposed on the entire electrical system (the incoming municipal electrical system) by lightning, unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines, or line surges.
Additionally, grounding through a grounding rod has its limitations. Grounding (earthing) of electrical equipment doesn't provide a low-impedance fault-current path to clear ground faults (translation: "lower" voltages don't travel well, or freely, through the surface of the earth). In fact, according to the NEC, code prohibits the use of the earth (a grounding rod) as the sole return path because it's a poor conductor of current at voltage levels below 600V [250.4(A)(5) and 250.45(
(4)]. In reality, a second grounding rod could potentially electrify the ground around it, and have the potential of ELECTROCUTING you.hot water, you're post is absolutely PERFECT. Would you mind if a repost just the first two paragraphs, and "pin" it to the top of the forum?
Sure, if you think it would be helpful, go ahead and put my post where it works best.
As for the grounding business.... Dr. Spa is right about the purpose of the earthing rod.
Ground fault currents (i.e., those that find their way into the green wire under a "something's wrong" condition) are taken back to the service entrance point (main house panel) where they tie to the neutral (white wire) bus. The white is the center tap of the power company transformer and thus the fault currents get back "home". This is the ONLY place the two (green and white)should connect. If you connect green to white anywhere else, you have just defeated the safety ground system and made the green effectively just another neutral in parallel. Not so good.
The separate structure does need that earthing rod per code. And it isn't a safety hazard as long as you still don't connect the green to the white at the subpanel... you still have to carry it back separately to the service entrance/main house panel.
There is a difference in the Code between the words "grounded", "grounding" and "bonded". Suffice it to say that it's all about safety and if you aren't *deadly* sure you understand the differences in these words and what they mean... don't attempt to do electrical work. On ANYTHING other than perhaps replacing a switch or outlet. Hire someone that knows. It's not about making it work... any number of hazardous practices will "work". That is, until some condition or fault occurs that you didn't understand or recognize - and you end up on the 11 oclock news.
Thank you for your response, hot water. But for all that, I don't see that you've weighed in on the question of a ground rod at the subpanel. Dr Spa says (it seems to me), that it's dangerous. A ground rod here might shock us? What say you? I say it's a judgment call. But I can learn.
-
Here's a dozen web page article on it :-)
Again, sorry to exercise you, Dr Spa, but when I click on this, I get a registration page. What is it in plain English?
-
A "ground to rebar" in the pad is NOT what's called for. What's called for is BONDING the rebar to the spas system. Grounding and bonding are two different things entirely!
Grounding is giving stray voltage a place to go, safely....if there's a short, the electricity simply flows away from the system through the ground wire.
Bonding is about equal potential, or equalizing voltage between metal components....so you can't touch one metal object with one hand, and another with the other (or a foot, as in the case of the pad) and receive a shock as there's more voltage in one than the other.
As said earlier, "dirt" is a poor conductor of current at voltage levels below 600V. Imagine you're standing near the ground rod of your spa, your hand on a piece of metal that's "properly" grounded. A short causes electricity to flow through the ground rod. Dirt, being a poor conductor of current under 600V, doesn't transmit all the voltage to the earth. The ground around you is now electrified, and as you're touching something properly grounded, you get shocked.
Ok, now, moving to the front of your house :-) A lightening bold hits a telephone pole down the street from you sending 600,000 volts of electricity screaming through the wires towards your house. The ground rod by your main panel will reduce any damage that might be caused to the electrical companies system, and hopefully prevent the wiring in your house from causing a fire.
Sorry to get your dander up, Dr Spa. Still. what you say here is opaque to me. Except maybe I shouldn't stand next to a ground rod?
-
WOW, Dave, that is really impressive! Prompts me to wonder whether I might desalinate my spa water for the yard rather than dump it. I had just guessed it wasn't practical.
But I'm also wondering why rain water doesn't supply all your needs thereabouts. Seattle gets about 36" rain annually. You must be close by. On our roofs, house and garage, that would be over 40,000 gals. We get about 40% of that in Menlo Park, and we're toying with the idea of a large cistern that might handle all our needs (and give away the rain barrels).
-
The issue here though is that the ground rod at your panel is NOT intended to, nor provides an actual ground for your home's electrical system. DIRT is a poor conductor of electricity (even though dirt is also called "ground"). The reason a main electrical panel is grounded through a grounding rod is to limit the voltage imposed on the entire electrical system (the incoming municipal electrical system) by lightning, unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines, or line surges.
Additionally, grounding through a grounding rod has its limitations. Grounding (earthing) of electrical equipment doesn't provide a low-impedance fault-current path to clear ground faults (translation: "lower" voltages don't travel well, or freely, through the surface of the earth). In fact, according to the NEC, code prohibits the use of the earth (a grounding rod) as the sole return path because it's a poor conductor of current at voltage levels below 600V [250.4(A)(5) and 250.45(
(4)]. In reality, a second grounding rod could potentially electrify the ground around it, and have the potential of ELECTROCUTING you.hot water, you're post is absolutely PERFECT. Would you mind if a repost just the first two paragraphs, and "pin" it to the top of the forum?
I certainly agree that hot water's post is worth saving for all. Thanks, hot water!
But I'm troubled by Dr Spa's 'warning' that a ground rod at the subpanel endangers us. If so, why does NEC allow, in some cases codes require, a ground to rebar in the concrete pad under a spa? And as hot water says, a ground is required at a separate structure.
My 12' x 8', 1300 gallon swimspa (as big as many separate structures) is next to a tree and much closer to a chimney and utility pole than is the main service panel over 60' from the tub. Certainly standing next to any ground rod during a strike or spike can endanger you. That's one reason to put the subpanel away from the tub. And in my case the rod is 8' from the tub and on the opposite side of a block wall from the subpanel itself.
As Dr Spa says, the point is to protect the equipment [and your property and selves]. When solar panels were put on my roof, codes required a second ground rod near my main service. The system is both a big aluminum grid (lightning rod) up there and it's generating electricity. With two rods my main panel etc. is better protected than with one. More so with three, and in this case a rod at the subpanel serves to limit trouble coming to or from the spa.
Though I'd be happy to learn otherwise.
My best interpretation of Dr Spa's warning is "Don't stand next to a ground rod during a lightning storm"
-
WOW, hotwater has really given you your money's worth (while discounting internet advice!).
My comment: A ground to rebar in your concrete pad is REALLY smart. This is far superior to that ground rod at your main service box. If your upgrade includes a new pad, be sure to get this tie installed by the concrete guys.
In my case, I don't have the ground to rebar, and the main service panel is 60' away. Just like it's smart to have that GFCI in the subpanel close to the spa rather than back in your main panel, it's smart to have an effective ground there also. Ground rods are cheap, lightning is not.
[NOW, I hope hotwater has some suggestions for the timer I want for my 50amp spa -- see my Topic also here. Thanks!]
-
pk, The barrels you see here (60 gal w/ screw tops) I paid $20 ea delivered. We have 32 of these. The same are now going locally for $40 you haul. Others with just bung holes on top I can get for as cheap as $10-20. We have 22 of these. You might check craigslist for sources.
As you can see in the photo, there are two downspouts on this side of the house, serving two barrels, the others are connected with hoses, all fill together. From these I pump to other barrels with closed tops.
I just went at to check the ppms. My rain barrels read 7-8 ppm. My tap water is 99 ppm, my recently filled spa is 148 ppm (half rain water/half tap plus some chems).
I suggest you test your roof water for ppm. I would think you were getting clean rain in Parker. After it sets awhile it may be quite low. But we do have tile roofs, not asphalt.
Note, we do NOT put the used spa water on plants. It goes down the drain. In 6 mos, it may be up to 1400 ppm with accumulation of added chems.
-
We have a 1300 gallon tub, MasterSpa H2X Crosstrainer2. The last two water changes, I've pumped about half the water from our rain barrels, through a sock filter.
Generally, we are saving water for our fruit trees. We get 15" from Oct-May, and zero May-Oct. Because our Time of Use billing for electric (PG&E California) is more expensive April 1 - Nov 1, we make our semi-annual water change late March, and early November. Heating 1300 gals is not cheap. (Yes, we also have solar electric -- it's California)
In November we have the first rain of October on hand and expect more, and in March we have full barrels and can expect a little more in April.
My experience is that in one day or two added chems bring the water up to par, as easily or better than with tap water.
My suggestions: Don't pump from the bottom of the barrel, keep the inlet hose a foot higher. Do use a filter on the end to the tub. Be patient, it may fill slower than from your garden hose. (That's why I've used on half rainwater!)
Any comments on rainwater chemistry welcome! You may want to check the Ph BEFORE you use any rainwater -- WE are not in Ohio anymore.
Link to rain barrel photo:
http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID..._NAME=snapfish/
-
That's great, michelle.
-
BigD, Giving any thought to evergreen plants along the fence line? A row of Italian cedars or a double row of tall lush hedge might look a lot better than a fence.
Hereabouts, fences at construction sites are often shrouded with black or dark green plastic screen. Could hide things until those plants are up to it.
ADDED: OR, maybe a pergola above the fence supporting an evergreen vine such as jasmine. See my pic here of a jasmine (smells great) completely the sign on the side of this truck.
http://www1.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID..._NAME=snapfish/
-
Thanks pauldee. Ours is a 1300 gal unit, and I think it's filtering much more than just a couple hours daily (nightly). I guess I also thought that a 'techie' fix here might be easy. (and not interrupt the Jon Stewart show!)
-
Thanks, JR. This is what the MasterSpa people recommended when I asked them. (They had no suggestions for timer system)
But this would require me to set the program twice a day, just what I want to try to avoid. (Unless there's something to the Econ mode I don't know about)
Hereabouts we don't need to worry much about the temp drop. It's mild and cover and insulation works so well that it drops only about 2 degrees with pwer off 12-24 hrs. (It got down to 28 degrees one night this winter)
-
Dr Spa has it right. My 50 amp service has paired 50 amp breakers. The switch from 20 to 50 will certainly require new line to the tub.
Let me add, I don't much like the pull out switches. It's easy for them be only half way in, arc, and burn up your switch box.
For a little more money you can get a box with a real switch. A box that's lockable, if you want to keep the unauthorized from the switch.
Also, a ground rod at the box may be smart too.
-
I've just posted info on building your own steps for a large/tall spa, but my picture there also shows our fence behind the spa. I topped our 57" block wall behind the spa with a 27" redwood topper. The wisteria on the fence has advanced another 8' along the topper since last Spring.
http://images1e.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ff...%3A595335nu0mrj
Arrrrrg!
in Portable Hot Tubs & Spas
Posted
Stryker, Please forgive me, but I think it's spelled with an 'h' or maybe several of them, as in 'Arrrggghhh!"! I do realize that pirate jokes often leave off the extra h's.
Sorry, but my real point is that your subject line doesn't signal to anyone what your problem is. I gather that it's you've been sucked down line and you'd like someone, anyone, to come turn of the switch? have I got this rif=ght>Hmmm?