Chris H

Hotsprings>Sundance-better insulation (probably 15-20% less to run), I’m not denying the Hotspring is more efficient than the Sundance, but I think you could relate the difference in cost in a few ways and it would be quite immaterial. When comparing an Envoy to the Cameo, the Cameo has a 1.5hp airblower and additional horsepower on the jet pumps. Both of which will increase the cost of ownership. Going by your numbers of 10-15%, and assuming the Envoy costs $30 bucks a month you are talking a whopping $4.50 a month. Not a big deal when everything is considered. better jets (hot springs gives you different types of jets in every seat compared to 2 types of jets in entire spa) I think the massage that is derived from Sundance is better. That was an opinion, was your statement an opinion? I can change the way each of the jets move water and it gives me a different massage just by moving the jet. I don’t have that flexibility with the Hotspring, and I can turn off the jets individually in the Sundance. Try doing that in the Hotspring. One more thing, Sundance utilizes more than 2 types of jets in the Cameo. I count at least 4 different types. I never see hot springs leak compared to sundance which I see leak all the time (I started first 5 years of spas with Sundance, I like em alot but lately so many problems). Be specific when discussing these leaks especially these recent problems. If you have no facts, don’t just spew things on web forums as that is quite inappropriate. No one else discusses these leaks, but you apparently have information that no one else has seen. I hear tons of people discussing Hotspring’s failures with their auxiliary controls and it was a known problem from Hotspring. Can I discuss that? Same can be said about the MicroII filter, when it first came out they were averaging about 2 months before they broke, now I have heard they are averaging about 7-10 months not the 12 months sundance says. Most dealers charge 110 dollars for that filter and you change it more then once a year? Not to mention not one drop of the water that comes from the jets finds that filter to begin with. I can say the same thing with the Tri-X filter from Hotspring. I have seen the original ones collapse and they are designed to last 5+ years. The statement that not one "drop of the water" from the jets finds that filter is false. I would recommend rephrasing that statement and doing some research on the Sundance product. Let’s put it this way, if Sundance did what you say they would not be ETL listed. Hotsprings also uses a better mixing system with ozone, I have seen the sundance pillows almost evaporate within a years time when the larger cd ozone is installed because sundance doesnt mix the ozone but with the mazzai injector which every company using ozone has. What makes Hotspring's sytem better? I have seen Hotspring pillows start to disintegrate in less than a year.

A competitive price for the Cameo is around $9,500. Give or take $500 with the regular options included. The Optima and Cameo are priced exactly the same when the dealer purchases from Sundance.

IM the largest cal dealer in the united states and have been for 30 years Any way we can prove you are the largest Cal dealer in the United States? Also, I went to your website, it said you were in business since 1987. Do I have the wrong business, I was looking at Graham Crackers Backyard & Patio's website? One other thing, Cal Spas was started in 1979.

Then there was the leaker I fix a couple of years ago, when I was removing the foam I found they put cardboard boxes to take up space so they did not have to use as much foam. Is this a joke? New style of thermopane, I guess.

The manufacturing costs are at least 185% more, because of the fact that most of the spa is made from petroleum. Copper has gone up 4 or 400% times since 1988. Steel at least double. You think about it. Go look at a 1988 Sundance, then look at a 2007 and tell me what you see? As much as it has to do with increased costs you seem to forget that in the late 1980’s the retail margins for the Sundance line were usually over 300%. The retail margin has drastically decreased since that time and you know that. Please stop stating that it is because of them using cheap parts. There are a few other reasons as well, improved efficiency in the manufacturing process and increased production both lead to lower manufacturing costs as well.

I posted this on WTBHT and am posting it here. It is the middle of the year so I thought I would bring some attention to this topic. ETL is a testing company that tests spas to make sure they follow certain guidelines. I would recommend any future purchaser to verify their spa and manufacturer is ETL listed. This is for the safety of the actual users of your hottub. For potential customers, if the spa isn’t listed I would think again on purchasing that brand of hottubs. Here is where you can search for your ETL listing: http://etlwhidirectory.etlsemko.com/WebClients/ITS/DLP/products.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm If you find out that someone is stating their spas are ETL listed, but cannot find that manufacturer or brand you can even request a field investigation. Here is where you can find this: http://www.intertek-etlsemko.com/portal/page/cust_portal/ITK_PGR/DOCUMENTS_PROD_PG/Field_Investigation_Request.pdf Chris

From what I have read and understood, the margin on the Sundance line was between 300% and 400% in the late 1980’s. This would mean a spa that cost the dealer $3,000 would retail in the area of $10,000. Those were the good old days. Trust me; the margins are no where near that now.

I think this is a case of comparing apples to oranges. The 300 series Jacuzzi is on the same level of quality and features as the 700 Series Sundance. This would be the main reason for your price difference. I would either look at the 460 Jacuzzi to bring it on line with the price of the Altamar or take a look at the Sundance Certa to make a comparison to the Jacuzzi 355. BTW, I think the Sundance filtration is better than Jacuzzi's.

Rust happens on above ground pools. You can replace the liner, but make sure the installer utilizes a product called polyfoam between the liner and wall. This will protect the liner from little pokes from the wall. Where are you located and who is the dealer that told you that?

This topic should go to the beating the dead horse area. Now.

This is me venting so I don’t know where this post really belongs or who I am responding to but I felt like venting. Sorry I used the wrong “waist” in a sentence. I changed it. I make mistakes. Sometimes that $100,000 education doesn’t work. Actually, many larger manufacturers are taking notes from Hotspring’s leadership position. I count 3 new manufacturers producing spas for the mass merchants in the last year. Take a look at Costco’s website, you will see spas manufactured by Jacuzzi, Cal, Hotspring, and Softub. This is not the end of the world, but a way for the manufacturers to gain market share and sell in a market that has very little effect on the dealers. Selling spas in markets that were previously untapped makes the parent companies much stronger. It also gives these manufacturers economic advantages as well. Think about it this way; let’s assume Hotspring sells 1000 spas from Costco. I think that is a conservative number and I don’t think they are selling that many. That is an average of 1 spa for each of their dealers. Are the dealers really going out of business because that one person did not purchase that one spa from them? Seriously, lets be real here. As we all know most large purchases are not made over the internet because most people don’t want to purchase something and not see it, feel it, or touch it. It is one thing if the purchase is $50 bucks, but not $5,000. That is a fact and it is not changing anytime soon. Dealers are here to stay if you like it or not.

The owner of rhtubs.com asked you to tell him why his covers were not as good as Ideal spa covers. He went onto explain the benefits of owning one of his covers versus owning one of Ideal’s covers. This was not a sales message and at no time did the owner of rhtubs.com put a link to his website. And don’t forget both of you are in violation of the guidelines of this message forum. Here is one of the guidelines: For obvious competitive reasons, individuals who operate forums or bulletin boards that compete with poolspaforum.com are not eligible to enroll. You agree to not leave signatures, URLs or text including blatant sales messages, solicitations, advertisements, derogatory comments about members, or self-promotion of any form encouraging members to visit a particular website or store. Poolspaforum.com editors will tend to error on the side of caution and delete questionable posts.

Thanks for the prescription, Doctor.

Before you waste your time going to the Hotspring store, Hotspring will have the thinnest shell. I am sure someone on here will tell you why it is thin and why it actually works. I don't know enough about it to explain.

Thanks egbert. Does it seem to be more appropriate to compare the Chelsee/Bahia to the D1 Sojourn? Given that the D1 dealer was quoting a $9500 for a new model Nautilus, that would explain the difference in price. I'm just trying to get a sense of what constitutes an apples/apples comparison. While we're on the subject, is the Chelsee/Bahia on the same level as the Tiger River Caspian, or is it closer to the Hot Springs Vanguard? Thanks for the info. I would say that the Sundance Optima would compare nicely to the D1 Nautilus at $9,500. The Hotspring Grandee, not the Vanguard, would compare to the Optima and the Nautilus. The Sundance Chelsee would compare to the Tiger River Caspian, but in my opinion the Chelsee is a much better spa than the Caspian. The Chelsee is larger and should cost around $500 bucks more than the Caspian. It is $500 bucks well spent in my opinion.

Anyone remember that "spa shopper" Hot Water Hank ?? Doc, I don't. Can you tell me about him? Thanks, Chris

Hello everyone I'm new to the forum but have been shopping for a Spa for some time. I'm ready to wet test the Jacuzzi J-230 and will likely purchase this model if I still like it after trying it. I have no idea what this should cost and what extras should come with it and be included in the price. Any insight would be appreciated on what a good deal would be and what exactly that would include. Thanks. I would not pay over $6,000 with steps, lift, and ozone. I would recommend you to look at the Sundance Burlington as well. It is the same spa.

Because I am an electrical engineer, I designed a 3 phase 380 V system and it is really great how it works. Jim the Jim, It is well known that you live in Colorado. So I visited the Colorado division of registrations website. On this website, it contains all licensed professionals including, but not limited to, engineers, accountants, and dentists. I did not see your name listed as a licensed professional engineer. Can you please provide me with this information? Here is the website I looked at: https://www.doradls.state.co.us/lic_database_req.php We would not want you to be misrepresenting yourself. Thanks for your time, Chris

Hi There, We are just putting in a new deck and have been looking at spas and think we have decided on the 2007 Sundance Hamilton Spa... Was not really able to find much info in terms of price online so I thought I would get opinions here! We are in the Seattle area and got quoted $8800 delivered, including cover, cover lifter, ozone, stereo, and starter chems. What do you think? Is this a pretty good price and a good tub? Seems like I could find info on most of the 800 series but not the 700. thanks! With stereo, it is a pretty decent price with the options you have listed. Quite frankly, I would try to get the Cameo around the same price without the stereo, but that is just my opinion. Usually the Cameo sells for around $9,500 without the stereo.

I have said this before: Tong and Rogers / Cheech and Chong: they're the same aren't they? Has anyone other than the almighty one seen this report? EDITED: there to they're

I’d like to know how the Master has double the horsepower and the same KW heater as the Sundance, but requires the same electrical requirements as the Sundance? Is there something fishy going on there? Could the HP number for the Master be incorrect or misleading?

"Too Oh" wrote: "I shall refrain from commenting. This one is just too easy." I must agree.

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...ory/factory.htm Photos of the Phoenix Spa factory. Should give your gut a better feeling.

At the price you are quoted, you should buy the Solana. The Adventine costs dealers more, but not $1,000 more. You are getting a better value with the Solana.

How come they haven't had a press release? It is not mentioned on GL's website. I did not check the Emerald site. Both were at the Atlantic City show.