eastcoast

hey guys i notice there's an abundance of unsatisfied consumers on this forum (and other places too) --- so I have a question that has nagged the heck out of me for nearly two years. Hopefully someone can shed some light A little background: I own a swimming pool company. We're young and small. I love pools --- it is a passion. It is hard work too --- but is very rewarding (and the intangible rewards far outweigh the monetary gain, trust me). However, we lose SOOOO much business to a lot of these larger franchise companies (I call em the "McPool Builders). The comments I read in this forum are not abnormal nor are they shocking. I run into a lot of pool owners who were seriously upset with their builder, or had terrible experiences. I ran into a former prospect who had chosen a larger company, over mine --- and tell me they wish they had gone with mine (though we were in line at the grocery store and I think she was just trying to avoid the awkwardness of the moment). So my question is --- why do you all keep going to these companies?? What is it that makes you say "ah--- I like your company." I'm sure you all check references --- but do you think that anyone's ever going to give you a bad reference. Obviously, none of you are the first "victims" (if you will) of any of these McPool Companies. But everyone keeps going back!!! I do feel for your situations --- and feel frustrated for you. However, it frustrates me at the same time because many of these "horror stories" are really easy problems to deal with, and it's unfortunate that there are so called "builders" out there who cannot REALLY stand behind their work. So, does having a builder who actually CARES about their work mean anything to you, as a consumer? Or someone who is willing to accept responsibility for their actions?? Sorry for the venting ... feedback welcome

Baro and before I begin --- poollady, please feel free to slap me around (via cyber-slap haha) if i miss something here Filling from the river behind your house??? I guess it would work --- from the river though?? Did I read that right?? I agree with poollady on the heavier liner. If the hole is properly dug and the base is installed to the proper depth --- and the liner is properly sized --- there will be no problem stretching the heavy liner. Yeah, they get brittle (takes years) --- but so do the 20 mil. AND --- there is really not that much price difference (there is some, but not enough to make you nickle and dime things) AND --- as far as the liner stretching --- you'd be surprised how much they do stretch. electric work?? around here, permits (electrical permits) can only be pulled by licensed electricians. However, I know of builders in other areas who do their own electric work as well. Just ask em sand filter?? eh, do whatcha want ... it is not a "cement" walkway --- it's concrete. Don't worry, most people say this. Someone said it to me today and it made me tremble. I'm venting. They're filling from the river ???

oh yeah, "vermiculite day" enough to make ya wanna call in sick

ok, im confused the pool leaked ... so you're going to have it resurfaced?? how do you know the leak is not due to plumbing? how do you know the leak is not due to a structural crack? I'm still confused though --- give me more detail, I give you more answer

Gina in a professional capacity, im indifferent to any of them ... personally I prefer gunite (limitless design, durable, aesthetically pleasing). the first thing you need to do is set a budget. don't bother "googling" up "How much do Pools Cost" on the internet --- because prices vary from region-to-region. But try to talk to some friends and family that have had pools built/installed --- they'll have a good idea of the pricing (assuming their pools were built recently) so set a budget. Then decide on which type of pool you want. Do not bother calling a fiberglass company and asking "so are fiberglass pools good??" What kind of answer do you expect?? Likewise with a vinyl or gunite. In addition --- not to vent --- but do not be a tire-kicker and call somebody out to your house to take measurements for a pool when you have no idea what kind of pool you want yet. It takes actual WORK for us professionals to prepare FREE estimates for you .... You say you have family members with fiberglass, gunite and vinyl?? Well go see them!!! Structurally, when installed properly, any of them are as good as the other. You just need to find which one suits your taste. Really, it comes down to "which one do you like best???" So -- set a budget, and decide on the type of pool you want (vinyl, gunite, fiberglass). Allow yourself another couple thousand maybe for any options that you may want. Whew! That should get you started....

ah, here i am giving awau more free advice again really, call an excavator --- most pool companies aren't gonna have time to fool with ya You'll need a Cat Loader to demolish the pool (and you'll find out why shotcrete/gunite is used in the first place) ... chances are, your jurisdiction won't allow concrete to be buried --- so you'll need to have that (among other debris -- plumbing, etc.) hauled away Next, you'll need decent fill dirt (you don't need 100% compaction in your yard --- so don't get too obsessive here) and then a backhoe or bobcat to re-grade the yard. Then, after your grade is complete, you'll be restoring the yard (not sure what ya'll do in Florida, but we use Kentucky Fescue up here) Really, it's pretty simple --- you're breaking concrete, hauling concrete, fillin a hole, grading, then restoring the yard.

hey don't forget about me Baro I'm gonna hafta stand my ground against poollady (even though she has 36 years more experience than i do in the industry) and say DE FILTER sorry poollady I will say this --- I hate - --- ABSOLUTELY HATE putting a DE filter back together after servicing one good luck Baro and please remember there are some honest builders out there who really do work their tails off everyday and truly earn each and every penny --- two or three times over, in most cases

Baro, Good questions --- You're lucky I'm single, cuz I got so much time on my hands to write all this, lol Difference between gunite and fiberglass??? I'll break it down like this: DESIGN - with gunite, your budget & imagination is your limit. With fiberglass, you are going to be limited to about 2 dozen shapes & designs. I am not aware of a fiberglass version of a Grecian True "L" STRUCTURAL - Ok, Gunite Pools contain reinforced steel (rebar) to provide tensile strength in the concrete (Concrete is weakened by tension in the same way a boxer is weakened by a kidney shot). Gunite is then "shot" over this to provide the shell. Because it is pneumatically applied, and contains little water, it reaches 5000 - 8000 psi in 28 days (your house foundation is about 2500 - 3000) how ya like dem apples?? By the way, Gunite is a method, not a material. It is the trade name for the "dry-mix" shotcrete. Shotcrete is the pneumatic application of concrete. In a "wet-mix" shotcrete job, concrete is delivered already mixed (with water already added). It is poured from a truck into a hopper, which is then pumped through a 3" (I think that's the size -- not sure) hose. Another (seperate & smaller) hose runs adjacent to this first one, and contains forced air from an air compressor. At the nozzle, both the wet shotcrete and forced air meet --- and voila! shotcrete. NOW -- that's the "wet-mix." In the "dry-mix" (which is called GUNITE), instead of wet concrete being pumped through a hose and applied by air, you have sand, portland cement, and aggregrate (NO WATER) being pumped through the large hose. Just like in the wet mix shotcrete, another hose is running adjacent to this --- only in dry-mix, this contains WATER. At the moment the DRY MIX leaves the nozzle, water is introduced to it. voila -- GUNITE!! Are you still awake?? Hahaha Fiberglass pools are, well, fiberglass vessels that are built in a factory. The manufacturers have "templates" for each of their designs (ever seen those Jello molds?? you know, like the hearts, the four-leaf clovers, etc??) Basically, similar to the way boats are built. COST - hmm ... if you can find a local fiberglass dealer, chances are you'll see lower prices on these than on the gunite. You're on the edge of your budget with both of them --- especially considering the shape that you have in mind. DELIVERY - Fiberglass can be installed & completed within 1-3 weeks. Gunite is 60-90 days. Would this make a difference to me?? Not at all. MAINTENANCE - I'll vacuum & brush a fiberglass pool over a gunite anyday. HOWEVER --- if you buy a cleaner (i.e. Polaris, etc.) you really won't need to vacuum much. The chemical maintenance of gunite pools is far more involved (and if you want me to explain this part, then BOTH of us will fall asleep) BASE MATERIALS - gunite; cement-based materials (concrete, marcite) ... fiberglass; well, fiberglass ANSWERS TO YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS -Not sure why you wouldn't think a Grecian L is a functional pool??? Please elaborate - DE Filter for sure?? YES !!!! - Liner mil?? 27 - What do you mean by "vacuum system" ... vacuums are nothing but extensions of a skimmer port (I'm too tired to explain this further) - Saltwater Systems effective? Yes. Easier? Eh, not really. Trendy as hell? Yes!!! -too tired to size up your heat pump, sorry, maybe later?? - Lighting --- hmm, consider LED lights Biggest thing is to narrow it down to what you want --- at least down to a gunite, vinyl or fiberglass. Pick a design (you already have I think) and size. Get a couple bids on it. Is it within your budget?? If so, see what options you can afford. Whew, tired, gotta get up early in the am nite nite

Baro sounds like you're really leaning towards a vinyl pool ... so, here's some more help again, i just love pools, and i love talkin bout em --- personally (again, ask 5 pool builders a question, and you will get 6 answers), I would go with a polymer system vs. a steel system. I'm not going to name any names (of brands) for fear of breaking some ad clause on this forum. A polymer/vinyl pool ought to be within your range. REMEMBER --- prices vary area-to-area and builder-to-builder. But you've got a realistic budget to work with I think. If your jurisdiction requires fencing, make sure to include this into your budget (check with your local building codes) Vermiculite is just one of several materials that can be used for a base. Some vinyl installers use sand and some use concrete. This is probably (wait, no --- it IS) the most intensive task involved in the entire installation process. GET A CLEANER (i.e. Polaris). GET A CLEANER GET A CLEANER GET A CLEANER You won't have to vacuum much (maybe MAYBE once/twice a summer). They are so necessary --- we don't even present them as options in our pools. We just include them in the standard package. Heat Pump vs. Heater ... save gas --- yes. Yeah, you'll pay more upfront --- but those that have them say they are well worth it. oh and for gosh sakes --- yes --- get a light!!

Baro ... sorry its lengthy --- but i love pools here's some professional advice (and since you live in PA and I can't bid on your pool, here's professional unbiased advice) hehe First, you're right --- there's a lot of information out there --- but simultaneously --- there is little information out there. It's a unique industry, I'll tell ya that. Having a low water table and stable soil is good --- won't save you any money though, so don't think you're special In fact, be prepared (key word here: PREPARED) in case your excavator hits rock in the soil. This is, for the most part, unpredictable, and will add cost to your project. Some reputable, honest builders (YES we are out here) may even "eat" this cost (that's contractor talk for "I'm not going to charge you for this --- even though I should) if it's not too high. But they do not have to, nor should you expect them to. As far as what type?? there's gunite (dry-mixed shotcrete), fiberglass, and vinyl. When PROPERLY built/installed, each three can provide a structure suitable for any soil condition. It really comes down to personal preference. I LOVE gunite because there is more freedom in the design (and construction). Personally, it suits my aesthetic tastes as well. but vinyl and fiberglass are great too --- when properly installed. As far as cost goes, please do not use "google" to answer this question. Cost will vary builder to builder and region to region. Cost differences between various companies within an area should be pretty tight. If they're not --- make sure you're always comparing apples to apples. I've lost out on bids because someone was comparing mine to another company's that were not even based on the same design!!! (didn't find this out till it was too late either ) hmm ... im not gonna bore you with whether or not to get a DE Filter or a Sand Filter (just get a DE Filter and thank me later)... don't worry about what type of pump to get. It's your builder's responsibility to provide you one that is properly sized. As for a heater ... hmm, this again is personal preference. Also --- saltwater systems are pretty cool !!! OH!! one other thing. Get a Polaris and some type of chlorine generator (whether a chlorinator or saltwater system). Alotta people are still in the "old school" thought that pools are hard to maintain. With the cleaners and chlorinators --- you really should not be spending more than 1 hour per week on the pool (that includes checking chemicals daily). Chemical adjustments can be intimidating -- but its not that bad once you learn. Your builder (hopefully) should show you how to operate and maintain it upon completion. last main thing is to read your contract. many people say that they "understand" --- when they have absolutely no clue in the world and they get pissed later. I can't speak for other companies, but my contracts are not intended to take advantage of my clients --- they are to protect me from my clients. In any event, if you're uncomfortable with the language, consult an attorney. whew, gotta go to bed --- its late!!! GOOD LUCK & Congrats!!!