Help With Water Balance Low Ta, High Ph.

[DerekJr]

I am using a brand new Taylor K2006. 6 person, 450 Gallon spa.

I have tried since yesterday to balance the water on a new fill.

New water was 130 CH, PH 8+, and TA 130 before any changes. 103 TEMP.

I have tried to lower the TA to get the PH to come down with dry acid. I had to go all the way to TA of 20PPM! On the way to that I would drop the PH and aerate and finally the PH would stabilize to 7.6 but at such a low TA of 20ppm! I then added baking soda to get the TA back up to 90 per The Pool Calculator.

Once I did that the PH sky rockets past 8 again!

No sanitizers yet as I have been trying to balance the water.

Right now the spa is at PH 8+, CH is still 130, TA 90PPM, Temp 103.

Any help on what I am doing wrong and what I should do to fix this?

[quantumchromodynamics]

I would use muriatic acid instead of dry acid. Just add enough acid to get your pH to about 7.5 to 7.7. If the pH keeps going too high, lower your pH to about 7.2 to 7.3 each time until it stays there. Your alkalinity will gradually come down and your pH will eventually stabilize. Keep your alkalinity at the point where the pH remains stable. It does not need to be at 90; it can be lower. Don't deliberately aerate unless you need to raise the pH.

You could also add some boric acid (borates) (about 50 ppm) to help balance your water. Adding 20 to 30 ppm of cyanuric acid will also be helpful.

Note: If the hot tub has any plaster or grout then you do need to balance the CSI to prevent dissolution of the cement.

Tip: For safety, buy muriatic acid in the quart size, not the gallon. Open the container outside and pour the correct amount into a disposable plastic (Not Styrofoam or paper) cup. Then bring the acid inside and pour it into the tub.

[DerekJr]

I would use muriatic acid instead of dry acid. Just add enough acid to get your pH to about 7.5 to 7.7. If the pH keeps going too high, lower your pH to about 7.2 to 7.3 each time until it stays there. Your alkalinity will gradually come down and your pH will eventually stabilize. Keep your alkalinity at the point where the pH remains stable. It does not need to be at 90; it can be lower. Don't deliberately aerate unless you need to raise the pH.

You could also add some boric acid (borates) (about 50 ppm) to help balance your water. Adding 20 to 30 ppm of cyanuric acid will also be helpful.

Note: If the hot tub has any plaster or grout then you do need to balance the CSI to prevent dissolution of the cement.

Tip: For safety, buy muriatic acid in the quart size, not the gallon. Open the container outside and pour the correct amount into a disposable plastic (Not Styrofoam or paper) cup. Then bring the acid inside and pour it into the tub.

That's kind of what I was doing. Bringing my TA down until the PH stabilized. Everything I have read about water balance seems to point to 20PPM TA being way too low, but at 20PPM likes I said I get 7.6 PH.

When I say aerate, I mean I am running my jets on full power for 30 min to let the dry acid mix in. Shouldn't I be running my jets for awhile when adding dry acid?

How long should I wait in between adding dry acid for a correct reading? When I added baking soda to get my TA up to where the pool calculator said it needed to be, it takes like 2 min for an accurate reading, running jets. I was under the impression to give the acid around 30 min with your jet's running. Then I check PH and TA.

My spa is acrylic, no cement.

With the CYA, Ithought that when I sanitized after my water balance is complete, it will be introduced with the dichlor.

Sorry this is so frustrating and it seems odd to have such a low needed TA and PH so high.

[quantumchromodynamics]

I feel like you're trying to move things too fast. I would just pour in some muriatic acid and wait for an hour or so. You can run the jets for a few minutes to help mix the acid. No air with the jets and no blower. I think that your pH will stabilize before your alkalinity hits 50 ppm.

Do an acid demand test after doing the pH test to determine how much acid to use.

Yes, the cyanuric will be added with the dichlor; you did not post cyanuric acid in your first post, so I wanted to make sure that you had some. As long as you're sure that the level is good, then that's fine.

Adding 17 ounces of boric acid (50 ppm) will also help.

http://www.proteampoolcare.com/gesp_gentle.htm

http://www.chemistrystore.com/product.cgi?...7201&group=

I would also suggest that you keep the pH slightly higher than 7.6. About 7.7 to 7.8 would work better.

[DerekJr]

UPDATE:

Today I decided to drain and just try and start over. So I did that and filled the spa (by the way the filter is brand new) and the water temp was ~60 degrees.

PH - 7.6

TA - 125

CH - 130

That is fresh out of the hose city water from my house with no water softener.

The tub is now heating and I am going to heat to ~103 and then check again. However I may not be able to check until tomorrow morning if the tub is not heated before sundown. If that is the case I will post the next step of results.

Then depending on results I will attempt to balance from there. I am going to order some GENTLE SPA for the future as nobody local sells it.

Also my tub has an ozonator that was manufactured in 1997! It gives alot of bubbles in the spa, but no ozone. So I unplugged that. Do I need to do anything else, or is unplugging sufficient? Looks like a project to pull the line out.

[quantumchromodynamics]

The ozonator should be connected to a venturi by a plastic tube. Disconnect the tube from the ozonator and plug the tube so that the venturi does not keep pulling in air and aerating the water.

A note about chemical balancing: It is important to allow an introduced chemical time to mix and react. As an introduced chemical mixes and reacts, the water has to regain equilibrium.

Sometimes the best thing to do is add the chemical and walk away for a while. Give the water plenty of time to reach a new equilibrium before retesting or adding the next chemical.

[DerekJr]

ANOTHER UPDATE:

Decided to test the water where it is at now before dark.

Water is now at 86degrees and the PH is off the charts at 8+ from the K2006. I have had the cover on while it heats up.

Ta has gone done ~10PPM to ~115.

Nothing has been done to the spa except the water is cycling to heat the tub. The jets are not running just the cycling mode and low speed.

It seems as though the PH skyrockets with any sorta air. I am just wondering if something else could be wrong. Could it be METALS? Should I try and use a metal remover?

[DerekJr]

The ozonator should be connected to a venturi by a plastic tube. Disconnect the tube from the ozonator and plug the tube so that the venturi does not keep pulling in air and aerating the water.

A note about chemical balancing: It is important to allow an introduced chemical time to mix and react. As an introduced chemical mixes and reacts, the water has to regain equilibrium.

Sometimes the best thing to do is add the chemical and walk away for a while. Give the water plenty of time to reach a new equilibrium before retesting or adding the next chemical.

Agreed! Tomorrow morning if my stuff is way off like it is now, I plan to do an ACID DEMAND test with my K2006 and when I put the acid in, I am going to give it a couple of hours to see what I come up with. From what I have been reading, the ACID DEMAND test is pretty accurate.

Thanks for the helping out. I appreciate it a lot. Hopefully this will get solved.

[quantumchromodynamics]

Your initial numbers look good. I would add just enough acid to get the pH below 8.0 each time. As you add acid, the alkalinity will gradually come down and the pH will stop rising.

Don't be too concerned if the pH is a little high for short periods of time, it won't hurt anything. Go ahead and start adding some dichlor to get some chlorine in the water.

[DerekJr]

MORNING UPDATE:

TA - Dropped ever so slightly to 110

PH - Still reading 8+

Taylor k2006 acid demand test was 3 drops. So I added 9 teaspoons dry acid based on what the manual calculation says (No muriatic acid or borates available yet). I pre diluted the acid this time in a bucket of the spa water. I ran the jets on high for 30 seconds to mix.

The temp dropped a little in the spa so it is also heating (cycling) on low.

Is it okay to keep the cover closed so the spa doesn't lose so much heat after adding acid? I am going to test again in a couple of hours and see what happens after the spa get's closer to equilibrium.

[d1 wayfarer]

Sounds exactly like our problem with a brand new Dimension One Wayfarer.

Waiting to see what the others reply to you.

[DerekJr]

UPDATE:

Been a couple of hours and GOOD NEWS!

Ph dropped to around 7.2-7.3.

TA is still stable ~110.

TA didn't drop but my PH finally went down! Woot!

Now the question is should I follow Nitro's water balance and aerate for 30 min and then keep doing that until PH stabilizes around 7.4 - 7.6?

My concern here is when I start using the jets the PH is gonna skyrocket again. Maybe not and I just didn't give the spa enough time previously to come to equilibrium. I am also thinking that predisolving the acid may have helped. If the PH skyrockets when I use the tub from the jets will it go back down?

[Nitro]

Now the question is should I follow Nitro's water balance and aerate for 30 min and then keep doing that until PH stabilizes around 7.4 - 7.6?

Short answer, yes!

My concern here is when I start using the jets the PH is gonna skyrocket again. Maybe not and I just didn't give the spa enough time previously to come to equilibrium. I am also thinking that predisolving the acid may have helped. If the PH skyrockets when I use the tub from the jets will it go back down?

Yes, you need to get TA down, or your pH will rise as soon as you start using the tub.

[DerekJr]

Nitro > THANKS! Doing that now!

[DerekJr]

UPDATE:

After aerating for 30 min, as suspected the PH jumps over 8 again. TA is stable at 110.

I am going to add some more acid now. After adding should I aerate and then check again or do i need to let it come to equilibrium?

[DerekJr]

UPDATE:

Ok added some more acid and then did aeration for 30 more min. TA down to 100 and PH over 8.

I think I am going to wait a bit and let the spa sit and then see what happens. See if the acid continues to bring the TA down.

Should I be doing that in between each aeration?

[DerekJr]

UPDATE AGAIN (sorry just really want to figure this out):

TA down to ~85-90 after letting spa sit for awhile.

PH still over 8

It just seems like were on our way down to TA of 20PPM again.

The water was fine until I use the jets at all.

I guess Ill add a little more acid to see if I can get the PH to come down.

[DerekJr]

Same thing with aeration.

Got PH down to 7.0 and TA was ~70ppm.

Aerate for 30 min and PH right back over 8.

On our way down I guess. I just cant figure why my TA would need to be 20ppm for this PH to work!

I ordered Proteam supreme plus (gentle spa) but that won't be here for a week. Down we continue to go.

[quantumchromodynamics]

When you lower your pH, the water becomes carbonated, like a carbonated beverage. When the water becomes carbonated and you aerate it, the carbon dioxide will be forced out, just like shaking a carbonated drink. When the carbon dioxide is forced out, the pH will go up and the alkalinity will go down. (Edit)Actually, aeration does not lower the alkalinity by itself. Adding acid and then aerating, lowers the alkalinity.(Edit)

It is my opinion that you should not lower your pH below 7.8, and you should not aerate the water.

If your pH is over 8.0, then add only enough acid to bring it below 8.0. Keep your pH between 7.8 and 7.9.

Don't try to lower your alkalinity; it will come down on its own as you add acid to lower the pH.

Carbon + oxide exists in several forms in your water:

As CO₂ (Carbon dioxide)

As H₂CO₃ (Carbonic acid)

As HCO₃^- (Bicarbonate)

As CO₃^-2 (carbonate)

These are all in equilibrium. As Carbon dioxide is removed by aeration, the carbonates and bicarbonates begin to take hydrogen ions out of the water, which raises the pH and lowers the alkalinity.

Acid adds hydrogen ions. The hydrogen ions combine with the carbonates and bicarbonates to form excess carbon dioxide.

[DerekJr]

When you lower your pH, the water becomes carbonated, like a carbonated beverage. When the water becomes carbonated and you aerate it, the carbon dioxide will be forced out, just like shaking a carbonated drink. When the carbon dioxide is forced out, the pH will go up and the alkalinity will go down.

It is my opinion that you should not lower your pH below 7.8, and you should not aerate the water.

If your pH is over 8.0, then add only enough acid to bring it below 8.0. Keep your pH between 7.8 and 7.9.

Don't try to lower your alkalinity; it will come down on its own as you add acid to lower the pH.

Carbon + oxide exists in several forms in your water:

As CO₂ (Carbon dioxide)

As H₂CO₃ (Carbonic acid)

As HCO₃^- (Bicarbonate)

As CO₃^-2 (carbonate)

These are all in equilibrium. As Carbon dioxide is removed by aeration, the carbonates and bicarbonates begin to take hydrogen ions out of the water, which raises the pH and lowers the alkalinity.

Acid adds hydrogen ions. The hydrogen ions combine with the carbonates and bicarbonates to form excess carbon dioxide.

What about when I am using the spa? If I run the jets the PH will go over 8.

The last test I did tonight after adding more acid a couple hours ago, the TA was ~50 and the ph 7.5. Which would work but if I use the jet's at all, kiss the PH goodbye.

I can get the TA and PH where I want it, I just can't keep the PH there. The only thing I can think of is to try the gentle spa when it comes next week and HOPE it can lock my PH in place.

[quantumchromodynamics]

7.5 is too low for your pH, it creates too much carbon dioxide. You are using too much acid. Keep your pH 7.8 to 7.9 and don't deliberately aerate.

Use the jets only when you use the tub, or for about 1 minute when adding acid to lower your pH. When using the jets to mix the acid, don't use air or the blower.

Also, I think that muriatic acid will work better than dry acid.

[quantumchromodynamics]

As far as a low alkalinity is concerned, I don't know that there is necessarily a problem with an alkalinity as low as 20 ppm, as long as the pH remains stable.

You couldn't have an alkalinity of zero. Because, by definition, the pH would have to be at, or below, 4.5 to have an alkalinity of zero.

Carbonates are just one possible component of total alkalinity. You could also have:

Cyanurates, from cyanuric acid (Dichlor, trichlor or cyanuric acid).

Borates, from Borax, boric acid or "Gentle spa".

Phosphates, from products such as Robarb's Perfect pH or pH anchor

Carbonate alkalinity is the only type of alkalinity that has a gas phase that can be lost due to aeration. Cyanurates, borates and phosphates are not lost due to aeration and avoid the pH rise and alkalinity loss that carbonates can experience.

Perfect pH msds

[d1 wayfarer]

Fellas,

He is having same issue I did with a new D1. I lowered TA, the acid to lower PH, then TA tanked, so Baking soda to raise it, then PH 8+, then more acid, pH always 8+, more acid... I went from 120TA to 40 to 100 to 40 again twice over two weeks. It did get very frustrating. I even thought I had a defectively manufacturered tub that would never be able to keep PH below 8.

Another message somewhere said to quit focusing on TA and worry about PH only. I did that and now have a PH that varies day to day between 7.7 and 7.8 and the TA is 40-50.

I even went out to try to raise the CH off the 150 I pegged it at to try to account for lower TA, but that didn't seem to do anything. CH now at 175.

After about week 3, I quit worrying about perfect water and the last week or so the tub has been at:

Bromine 3-6

Ch 175

TA 40-50

PH 7.8

Borates 44

I am calling that good, though I am looking forward to a first water change to try this all over again.

At least my water is crystal clear and no problems so quit worrying has been good for us since we are using it every other night now.

[DerekJr]

Thanks for the help guys.

This morning the PH was again over 8 (from sitting, only temp cycle through the night), and TA still ~50.

I think I am going to not worry so much about the TA for now and try to get the PH right (even if that means TA 20ppm). See what happens after I add sanitizer and give it some time. Next week I will receive the gentle spa and then experiment with that. I think Ill just drain the tub again and start over and try the borates to see if it will stabilize my PH at all. Ill see if I can find some muriatic acid as well even though that stuff is nasty!

[quantumchromodynamics]

d1 wayfarer, I think that is very good advice. A few questions, if you have time:

1) Do you use dry acid or muriatic acid?

2) What product did you use to add borates to your tub?

3) What test do you use to test your boron (borates) level?