greenworks Posted January 7, 2008 Report Share Posted January 7, 2008 OK so I have had the tub for over two weeks and just got swimmers ear. I want to shock the heck out of it. I have my CYA levels at or around 20 should I go fro more bleach or more dichlor? I am in a cold climate and would rather not drain, I was figuring If I shocked it 2 days in a row and didn't use it I could save the water but what do I know I have simmers ear even keeping everything where it was supposed to be. Lastly it may not be the tub either swimmers ear can be caused from other things as well but just the same I have two young kids and do not want them t get the itch or waht i have it kills! Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenworks Posted January 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 well I went for dichlor and dosed it on a super shock, needed to try something soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Sorry to have missed your post earlier. I would have just used bleach, but it's OK you used Dichlor. By using Dichlor, you just added both chlorine and CYA to the water, that's all. You probably didn't add more than 10 ppm or so. Swimmer's Ear is described here. Do you have any idea what the chlorine level was in the water when you used your spa? Assuming you had some chlorine residual, the bacteria for the swimmer's ear was unlikely to have come from the spa water. As you can read from the above link, swimmer's ear occurs when water gets trapped in the ear canal, but the bacteria or fungi can come from anywhere, not just the water in the spa -- they could already be in your ear. All the spa may have done is gotten water trapped in your ear, either from splashed water from the jets or from dunking in the water (if you did that). I'm assuming that the water didn't get to zero chlorine. The only thing I would suggest is to make sure you don't get to zero chlorine so if you added chlorine when you got out of the spa and then didn't use it the next day or had near zero chlorine whenever the next time you got in, then you aren't adding enough chlorine and need to add more or add it more frequently (every day). If you forget and want to go into the spa even though the chlorine is too low, then add the chlorine before you get in (with the circulation pump running; the jets can be off) and wait about 5-10 minutes and then get in. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenworks Posted January 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I was going to dump in bleach but I decided to go dichlor just to ensure the the CYA levels are between 20 and 30 ppm which I believe they where before but they are for sure know. The FC probably at some times gets to 0 we have been putting in bleach after we use it but only recently as per your advise so this may have grabbed me last week. I have read though that swimmers ear and hot tub itch are the same pathogen and being no one has any itch in our house I believe it could be simply bad luck with a wet ear. Just the same I have it and if I have it then the tub probably has it as well from me. Anyway I am going to check the tub twice a day and add bleach to keep it at least 3-5 for a couple days (its over 10 right now) and that should kill everything right? I am in pain and I do not want my 4 year old with this. The one thing I did notice is the water has gotten cloudy in the last week...I was thinking of buying a water clarity product that bonds to the the organic and then the fliter is able to pick it all up better, then change the filter and clean the one in right know as i have two. My thought train good in this? I can't thank you enough Richard for the help in the last couple weeks on my new tub! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Jason, I'm sorry you are in pain. That's the worst part about all of this. I think that if you keep the FC at 3-5 ppm for a couple of days then with the CYA at 20-30 you're sure to kill virtually anything that can be readily killed with chlorine (the exceptions being Giardia and especially Cryptosporidium cysts, but I don't think you need to worry about those as they only come from other people who are contaminated with them -- they cause diarrhea). So your shock routine sounds fine, BUT keep reading on because... As for cloudiness, this sounds like something else is going on with the water and that's not good. With regular chlorine usage the water should be very clear. I'm betting that your addition of Dichlor only twice the first two weeks of using the spa isn't oxidizing organics quickly enough and/or you're getting an algae bloom which would be rare for a spa, but not unheard of. Given this, I think you should target a higher FC level for shocking -- 40% of the CYA level so let's say 12 ppm FC which is close to where you are now. That is, keep the FC high and run the circulation filter 24/7 and see if the tub clears up. You'll need to have the tub uncovered at least part of the time and I would not use the tub during this time. It is usually unnecessary to get extra products to improve the water clarity unless your filter isn't very good or the circulation is poor (as with vinyl pools without floor drains). Try the chlorine alone first and keep it's level up adding chlorine more than once per day as needed. Just run the circulation pump; not the jets. If the cloudiness doesn't dissipate in a day or two, then we can move on to clarifiers and the like, but I suspect algae as strange as it seems since it came on so soon after a fresh fill (and having the chlorine at zero at times). Algae just look like dull, then cloudy water at first before it turns into a green bloom. It's basically the reverse sequence of what is shown in this link. I wonder if there's something in the Beachcomber products that you used that might be causing the cloudiness. Finally, make sure you are using unscented bleach -- the best is Clorox Regular, but an off-brand unscented Ultra bleach should be OK. And yes, you can clean your filter now, if you like, as it might have junk in it already. Sometimes spa/tub filters are too small or inefficient. Did you ever get a Taylor K-2006 or TF-100 test kit? It would be good to know a fuller set of water parameters just to be safe. It's possible cloudy water may be from a combination of high TA, pH and CH if you filled the tub with well water, for example. By the way, when the FC level is high, above around 10 ppm, the pH test won't be very accurate, so don't worry about adjusting pH until after we let the chlorine drop after the water gets clear and the FC holds better. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenworks Posted January 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 unfortantly I haven't got a larger test kit yet as I am not in area I could buy and the links I have found in canada are three times what your link was.I tested my general hardness with my fish tank pro kit and it is 200 and it should be 100-130 I have read not sure if that nakes a large differnce.I put more bleach in this morning. With the taylor kit at what time is best to measure the colour with FC as after 10 sec after shaking it reads 1 if I walk way for 5 minutes it reads 5+ppm I have been using the later maybe that is where I am erroring. My tub doesn't have a circ pump it is a single pump system set for 4 hours a day On the bright side saw the doc yesterday and the drugs are making life MUCH easier to deal with, I have had broken bones and torn ligamnets from years of hockey but the ear pain I have had this week equals anything I have ever had...that was until the drugs kicked in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Glad to hear you've been given some drugs to manage the pain. As for the test kit, the TF-100 at tftestkits.com will ship to Canada and even with the extra import fee it's not three times $50, but has a $35 flat shipping fee plus an import fee of around $16 (see this link and this link. The main Taylor distributor in Canada is Lowry and Associates in Ontario (905-836-0505), but their prices are quite high. Another option is to use LaMotte test kits which might be less expensive and you can read this post for info on these kits -- the Kit 7514 FAS-DPD chlorine test kit being the most important (this is similar to the Taylor K-1515-A kit). Anyway, the main test you don't have is a good drop-based chlorine test so you're really guessing at chlorine levels, especially when you want to do shocking. What color is the chlorine test you are using? If it's shades of yellow, then that's an OTO test and is best for measuring total chlorine only, but at least won't bleach out at high chlorine levels. If it's shades of pink/red, then that's a DPD test which can bleach out above 10 ppm FC. As for a delay in the color showing up fully in the test kit, that probably means you've got low Free Chlorine and high Combined Chlorine. My guess is that you've got a lot of stuff to get rid of in the spa, be it algae or ammonia or other organics and will need to add more chlorine to get rid of it. Keep the spa/tub uncovered as long as you can. Yes, the total hardness of 200 is fine as the Calcium Hardness is probably around 125 ppm or so. As for the pump, it may have just one pump but I'll bet it has multiple speeds so that the jets aren't on all the time, right? So what I meant was to have the pump on without the jets running and set that to be 24/7 for now so circulation is continual. You don't want dead spots developing while trying to kill off the algae or whatever is growing in your tub. Since a tub/spa doesn't have a lot of water volume, you might consider dumping the water and starting over. It's up to you. If you had a FAS-DPD chlorine test kit, then I'd just hit the thing with bleach keeping the FC high, but without being able to know the real chlorine level and distinguishing FC from CC, this might not clear up as fast as we'd like. You can see how keeping the chlorine level up higher works -- add more chlorine so that it more quickly registers at least 5 ppm FC or more, but if it doesn't start clearing soon then I'd probably just drain the water and start over. I know you said you were in a cold climate so would rather not drain so for now keep up with the higher FC adding bleach. I wonder if any of those starter chemicals you used had phosphates in them (for pH buffering). If so, then that might explain a fast algae growth since without chlorine algae can grow very quickly when phosphate levels are higher (assuming nitrates and sunlight are not limited). Beachcomber Care Free appears to be a polymeric clarifier. Beachcomber Care Free Boost sounded like Dichlor from your earlier post here. Beachcomber Soft does sound like it might be phosphates as it softens water and stabilizes pH. Did you add any Beachcomber Soft to the water early on? Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenworks Posted January 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 the test I have for chlorine test pink it is a taylor 2 part reactant kit I have used Soft as required so there would be 3-4 oz of the product in the tub since filling, and it recommends soft as the first product you put in followed 20 minutes later by the dichlor the the carefree boost 20 min later again. Should I go and get a organic binding product then change the filter and keep the chlorine up at least the tub would clear up and help the chlorine do its job... or no am I wrong there I do have a hardware store in town that sells some spa products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 I'd wait on getting the clarifier. If this is algae forming, chlorine alone will break it down. If you got the clarifier now before the algae is all dead, it would just interfere with chlorine killing the algae. You only use a clarifier if the algae growth has stopped (by chlorine killing it) and the dead algae is not clearing fast enough (at this point, the FC won't be dropping as fast and the CC will be more stable or dropping). I don't think you are there yet since it appears that your Free Chlorine isn't holding at all. Hit this stuff hard with chlorine, adding it to ensure you get an FC reading right away, not only after minutes in the chlorine test. On the Beachcomber products web site here, I can't figure out which product they expected you to use every day for chlorine. I can see products for bromine that make sense, but was Care Free Boost something to be used only once a week or every day? If only once a week, then this is a very irresponsible disinfection program and after you get your spa all cleared up you should let them know what you went through so others don't go through this as well. The main point is that there should be either bromine or chlorine in the water at all times and it certainly should not be allowed to get to zero for days at a time. Also, their "Soft" product probably encourages algae growth so without chlorine to kill it (and without an alagecide), the water can get cloudy or green. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenworks Posted January 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 As luck would have it the store didn't have the clarifier so at lunch when I stopped at the house I put another 3 oz of bleach in, removed the old filter installed a brand new one I had anyway, the old one looked like it had cleaned a sewer line not sure why lots of crap in it for a 2 week use tub. The care free line is a ONCE A WEEK 1 oz of dichlor shock on my sheet that they gave me from the Dealer. This could be the whole source of the intial problem especially when a new tub is in as the highest use for a tub is the first 90 days after purchase. The water looked better today than a couple of days ago, I ran the jets on high with the foot wells on and air at max for 1/2 at lunch to promote the most gas exchange then shut the lid and will do the same tonight. I will test again and if I do not see a good colour for 5 ppm in 10 seconds I add more bleach Richard in 3oz doses until I see it? I have 2 oz of Dichlor and 9 oz of bleach (5.25% couldn't find any 6%) in the last 24 hours with no one using the tub obviously One thing I never mentioned but all this talk of algae got me thinking is we had some trouble with the air addition at some of the jets so the Beachcomer tech came out last week and cleaned the jets and blew compressed air through the air intake system afterwards there were lots of small pieces of browny/greeny looking material floating around. At the time I thought it was just dirt and junk but maybe there was some water at some point that got in those lines during testing and when blown out whent he FC was low caused the bloom and issues I am having?Probably also why the filter was dirty. OH well we will get it as it looks to be getting better SHould a person be able to say indentify sand at the bottom of a tub while no jets are running or is that a little to clear, at this point in my tub I would be hard pressed to see sand on the seats to give you an idea (the shell is blue however) of the clarity but again it is better than it was so we are on the right track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chem geek Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Thanks for the info. Yes, the once a week approach of the Care Free line for chlorine is irresponsible, IMHO. And yes, 3 fluid ounce doses of bleach (in 350 gallons) which is 4 ppm FC each sounds good (the 5.25% is fine and is close enough for our purposes) -- if the chlorine is near zero, do 3 such doses since you want to get to around 12 ppm (which you can only roughly estimate from your current test kit). You may need to add this chlorine several times a day, especially now during the algae killing phase. As long as we are making progress, I'd stick with this chlorine shock regimen. Remember that it probably took several days for the algae to develop so it will take at least a couple to make some significant progress and perhaps a day or two after that to get totally clear and it will take an amazingly large amount of chlorine so keep at it. I'm not sure what that junk was when the jets were cleaned out, but it doesn't sound good, especially being brown/green -- it does sound like algae. If it's slimy feeling, it is likely to be algae but it's also possible it was some sort of grease (though why that got inside the lines in such quantities is a mystery). I'm glad you cleaned the filter -- having it clean should also help clear things up a bit as well. When the water isn't running and when it's clear, you should be able to see the bottom of the tub clearly and be able to see things like sand -- though it's easiest to feel since it's gritty. If you've got decent circulation and your filter is clean, then any sand should get swept up and get caught in the filter. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenworks Posted January 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 WOW I can see the jets at the bottom of the tub this afternoon, came home after work and check the chlorine and it was above 5 but not by much so I gave it 6 oz to take it up in the 12ppm mark as mentioned. My only question is now if the tub gets clean in a day and I have keep the FC at 12 ppm for the entire time +- when is it safe to use the tub?and should I be adding bleach 5 minutes before we get in based on the trouble we have had instead off after we get out for a few days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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