Scottie_In_IA_1981

I appreciate the replies and welcome any further feedback. I was looking for a good place to order the boric acid from and found 'bulkapothecary.com'. They have 1 lb quantities for $5.40, so I ordered 2 lb...which should cover me for the next 3 spa refills. With shipping, the total was around $22. If using the boric acid allows me to add dry acid less frequently, then that will probably offset the cost somewhat (or perhaps entirely)...either way, the less frequent maintenance makes it worth the price.

I plan to use boric acid on my next spa refill. It is a plaster/tile spa that I estimate to be between 300 and 350 gallons. The figure I found says to add .0457 pounds per 10 ppm per 100 gallons. So, for 350 gallons I would need about .8 pounds to achieve 50 ppm. The recommended 'range' I believe is 30-50 ppm...so, if my spa is 'between 300 and 350 gallon', adding 2/3 of a pound (302.4 grams) would still land me at the 40-50 ppm range. Is my math correct here? I found a 340 gram package of pure 'cosmetic grade' boric acid on ebay...which sounds like a pretty ideal size. Does this sound like an acceptable source of boric acid? Also, am I correct that it only needs to be added once, even if I keep the spa water for 4-6 months? If it dissipates to a small extent, and/or if I lose some water to splash out...I figured I could use 300 grams upon refill and then maybe add the remaining 40 grams from the package after a few months. One last question that I have is how/when to add the boric acid after refilling the spa. I have a pretty high TA and it takes me that first day or so of gradually adding acid and aerating to get the PH to stabilize. I also add calcium since I have a plaster/tile spa and the well water runs through a water softener. So, can I add the boric acid AFTER I've finished adding all of the acid and the calcium?...or, would it be better to add at a different stage? And, am I right to guess that I can go ahead and just add all 300 grams of the boric acid at once, and that it won't have any drastic immediate effects on the PH or TA?

I can't really speak to this from experience, but I do have some thoughts. If it simply wipes away easily, then I wouldn't think that it is either a stain or a growth. From the picture, it looks like a dark reddish brown color...which, probably isn't too far off from what a rust stain might look like (again, I can't speak from experience), but if it was rust I wouldn't think it would just easily wipe away like that? The one thing that it actually reminds me of is pollen. The only reason that pops into my head is because of the time of year currently. Where I live, there is some kind of chalky dust like pollen that gets kicked up...it's very fine, and the only time I ever see it is when I walk through the grass this time of year, it's like it settles into the grass and coats it, you can't really see it just by looking at the grass but all it takes is a walk across the yard and when you come inside your shoes are covered with this fine reddish brown dust. You would think that your filter would remove pollen, but the kind of pollen I'm talking about is extremely fine and basically invisible until it 'collects' somewhere (like the grass, or on a pair of shoes)...so, the pollen I'm describing is obviously something that could easily be blowing around in the air, and even if your filter did a good job filtering it, a tiny bit could probably still get through and remain in the water. Did you notice it before draining the tub? If you're pretty sure that it wasn't there before you drained it, but then noticed it after draining and having some time to dry out...pollen would make sense, because before it was simply floating or suspended in the water and you wouldn't see it, and it wouldn't be until after the water drained and dried up that you were able to visually notice some areas where it had 'collected'. Also, those slight depressions in the surface around the jets look like a spot that it might more easily 'collect' like that. Anyway, I can't say that I'm correct, but that may be something to consider. And, if that's all it is (pollen) and it wipes away easily...then it's definitely nothing to worry about.

Did your calculations call for 14.5 oz dry acid by weight or by volume? If it was 14.5 oz by weight, that would convert to around 9.5 oz by volume. If you've only added a half cup (4 oz by volume), then you aren't even half way to 9.5 oz yet. So, at this point, your total alkalinity may have dropped somewhat...but your ph is still going to be rising back up fairly quickly (the higher the total alkalinity the faster the ph rise). Until you are done adding the necessary amount of dry acid, the ph will only be lowered for a short time after you add the dry acid and then it will quickly be rising back up...it is only after the total necessary amount of dry acid has been added that the ph will begin to stabilize. I would double check whether you needed 14.5 oz by weight or by volume. It could very well be either...it just depends on your water source. In my case, for a similar sized tub, I actually need around 16 oz by volume (which would be around 24 oz by weight). As far as adding the acid, you want to do it incrementally...but you can safely add slightly larger increments in the beginning. If you actually need only the 9.5 oz by volume (14.5 oz by weight), then I would do something like this: Add 3 oz dry acid (by volume), then let the pumps circulate 30 minutes... Then, add 2 oz dry acid, then let the pumps circulate another 30 minutes... Then, add another 2 oz, and let the pump circulate 45 minutes... Then, add 1.5 oz, and let the pump circulate another 45 minutes... Then, add 1 oz, and let the pump circulate for an hour... At this point you will have added the 9.5 oz total. If your total alkalinity isn't testing below 100 at that point, you probably need a little more dry acid...your target total alkalinity may vary a little bit, but 70-80 is what I shoot for. You definitely don't want to add the entire necessary amount of dry acid all at once, but if you are providing those periods of aeration by running the jets in between doses then you can get the total amount needed added (in an incremental fashion similar to how I described) and have it all done in a few hours. As far as the reason it is unsafe to add the total amount of dry acid all at once...the ph would actually drop too low...this would mean that it would be unsafe for you or anybody else to get into the tub, and it would be corrosive to your hot tub equipment... The total alkalinity AND the PH of the water are both lowered by adding dry acid. However, aeration (running the jets for a period of time) will raise the PH without raising the total alkalinity. So, gradual incremental additions of the acid coupled with periods of aeration will allow the total alkalinity to be lowered without running into the problem of lowering the PH too dramatically. Once the total alkalinity has been lowered to the target range, the ph should remain fairly stable. It will still be necessary to add small amounts of acid periodically, but the ph rise will have slowed to the point that you may only need to add a maintenance dose of dry acid (perhaps 1 to 2 tablespoons) once or twice a week. If you are using Dichlor or some other sanitizer that is acidic, you may need even less frequent maintenance doses of dry acid.

I have a Mastertemp 125 natural gas heater that has been in use with my spa for around 4 or 5 years. The only problem that I'd had with it so far is that I needed to get a new control board kit, I swapped that part out when the original started to flake on me. Another problem that I have been noticing recently though, is that it will 'cycle' some days...and then on other days it will work just fine and it doesn't 'cycle'. So, when I turn the pump on and turn the temp up to where I want it (basically telling it to warm the water up about 10 degrees), I have been getting these 2 different responses randomly. The first response is that it works perfectly, the burner kicks on and it heats the water up 10 degrees in about 10 minutes, and it doesn't 'cycle' on and off at all during that time. The other response I've been getting is the 'cycling' -- where the burner kicks on for about a minute or so, and then shuts off, it seems to be triggering the high limit switch and the display shows this 'HLS error' for about a minute or so while the burner is off, and then the error goes away and the burner lights again and it runs fine for another minute or so, and then it continues to repeat this cycle. When it's 'cycling', obviously it's taking longer to warm the water up...it takes about 40 minutes instead of 10. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. It will work fine for weeks straight, and then it will return to this pattern of cycling for a week, and then it goes back to working fine. I know the cycling can happen when you're not getting adequate flow, but I wouldn't think it would be a flow problem because it's worked just fine for several years and the water has been kept pretty immaculate. Also, the pump is fairly new (about 1 or 2 years old) and it is the same model as the one I had before, and the heater operated just fine until recently. The one thing that I have noticed though...when I'm in the spa and the heater is 'cycling', the water pressure coming out of the the jets seems to be a bit lower...and then, when it is working fine and the burner is staying lit and not cycling, I seem to be getting noticeably stronger water pressure. From what I've seen, the 'cycling' can be caused by a number of different issues. These Mastertemp heaters though, all of the models seem to have pretty common complaints about their cheap parts and what I'd say qualifies as 'artifical obsolescence' -- they make cheap parts that don't last, so that they can sell people new heaters, or at the very least, new parts. Anyway, this has mostly just been a rant, but I was wondering if anybody else has had similar experiences. Also, I'm curious as to whether what I've described signals to anyone what specific part the problem is being caused by. Apparently, there is a cheaply designed plastic piece on the 'bypass valve' (a metal spring with plastic that attaches to it) and it's located inside the manifold. So, I've heard these are one of the parts that are pretty infamous for breaking, and have heard that this piece breaking can trigger the high limit switch error. Again, I know that it could be a number of other problems, but looking at this part might be my first step here. So, it could be the sensors also...and I'm debating whether or not I should just order a 'manifold kit' which would include all new sensors and a new bypass valve along with the new manifold housing itself. Probably a little more money, but I could be avoiding other future problems from happening quite as soon as they otherwise would (like, if the sensors decided to flake out on me in the next year or so). Pretty much just looking for anyone willing to comment here. I don't really want to go through the trouble of taking the existing manifold off just to look in there and see whether it is actually a broken bypass valve. I will probably just be opting for purchasing the full manifold kit and having it here before I go pulling off the original manifold. That way I can do it all at once, and worst case I'm replacing parts that weren't bad (or I should say, weren't bad yet) and keeping those original parts that were still good as spares.

Thanks for the prompt replies!...this forum is grade A. I figured borates were part of my answer here. I will see how things go once I've addressed adding the boric acid, as that seems to be a smaller/easier part of my solution. As far as me shooting too low on the PH though...although I'm sure your answer is correct, I guess I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it a bit. So, as far as 'the higher the TA the faster the PH rise' and 'the more aeration the faster the PH rise'...these already made pretty good sense to me...but I guess maybe I wasn't taking into account or completely understanding that it's also 'the lower the PH the faster the PH rise'. Now, could one safely say that the reverse to all of these is also true?...that 'the lower the TA or amount of aeration the slower the PH rise' (both of these would make sense to me) and also 'the higher the PH the slower the PH rise'? Or, if the TA is 'too low' (which I've never had an issue with), would that mean that the PH would not only be 'rising slower' but could also be lowering in the other direction, in which case you would be having to chase the ph back up with a 'PH Up' product? The ideal situation would be to achieve a TA where there is some longer term PH stability...like, a sweet spot where the PH is hovering closely around that ideal 7.8 range. Obviously that PH isn't going to last forever, even in the summer...but the stability is going to largely depend on those 2 things (the TA level that is maintained, and the amount of aeration), correct? What I'm curious about, is whether any amount of longer term 'stability' is even achievable with the constant aeration that I'm getting...in other words, even if you took out the variable of the higher TA water that I'm adding because of evaporation, would there ever be a 'sweet spot' where I could sustain a good PH for more than a couple days with all that aeration? Or, would that aeration just continue driving up the PH past what is ideal regardless of where the TA is at? I apologize if I'm missing something that seems blatantly obvious or if I've overthought this more than I need to. And, just speculating for now...but instead of adding the acid along with the X gallons of water that have evaporated 'every other day', it's sounding like I need to add that smaller amount of each that would be necessary EVERY day. That was sort of what I was looking to avoid if at all possible, having that chore out in the cold every day instead of every 2 or 3 days. And, again, I will see how things go with the borates and not shooting so low on the PH. If I'm thinking about this correctly, what you're saying is that I've been overshooting that sweet spot by lowering the PH too far? So then, it just bounces back up quicker...kinda like putting more force on a yo-yo. I suppose, if I continued doing so, that's not really buying me any longer term stability huh? Thanks for any and all of the help here, I'm sure things will click and I'll figure out the best strategy eventually...I probably just haven't let the knowledge of these replies completely soak in yet. Worst case, I just accept the fact that the hot tub absolutely needs daily attention over the winter months.

I can't say that this seems that strange or unreasonable to me, but I'm adding at least 2 tbsp of dry acid to the tub every other day it seems. I am maintaining a 300-ish gallon custom tile/plaster hot tub all year long and have noticed the need for a very altered strategy when the dead of winter hits. With the freeze protection, the filter pump and the jets pump will start kicking on automatically. When temps outside fall below 20 degrees Fahrenheit or so, both pumps will run 24/7. I was just curious what others might be experiencing as far as water evaporation in these temps. There doesn't seem to be hardly any need to add water over the summer, the half gallon or so I use to dilute the bleach every time I add it (every 1-2 days) seems to be plenty to keep the water level where it needs to be. In the winter however, negative or just above zero degree temps are pretty typical here for about a month or two. Obviously you can 'see' the steam rising off at these temps...even with the lid on you can see the little bit of steam leaking out. So, I am betting that the dry colder air (in contrast with the 104 degree water) will cause a lot more evaporation than the warmer temps of summer (during which I actually have the hot tub water set around 89 degrees). So, at these low temps, I seem to be adding about 5-10 gallons of water every few days at least. My question here is mostly centered on the TA/PH impact of these altered conditions. The water I add comes from a well and runs through a whole house filter and a water softener...so, although I'm not really adding hardness to the water when topping it off, this water has a pretty high TA initially (probably around 300 ppm or more). So, adding roughly 20 gallons of that water to a roughly 300 gallon tub every week...even if the tub had a perfect TA/PH, I'm going to have to constantly chase it back down because of the added high TA water used to top it off. Does this sound right, or should I be having better luck being able to stabalize the PH without having to add this amount of acid every 2 days? In the summer, once the TA/PH is stable, I can get away with keeping an eye on it maybe once a week. In the winter, it seems to need constant attention. I use the Dichlor then Bleach method, so I have got accustomed to having to test and add the sanitizer every day or every other day...and so, not a huge inconvenience to also just top off the evaporated water and add acid. Also, it seems I have little choice here, the ph is constantly going to be jumping between 7 and 8. I knock the ph down to 7, the pumps run 24/7, I add high TA water to top off evaporated water, and even within that 2 day span the ph is going to be back up to 8 or above. Since there was an initial level of calcium increaser added upon filling because of having the plaster tub, is this constant fluctuation of the calcium saturation index due to the constantly fluctuating ph going to invite problems with scaling? I suppose if the CSI is fluctuating between just below zero and just above...then the long term issues of having it positive and causing scaling could probably be avoided for the most part? So, again, is there a better way to stabalize here?...I have never added borates, but don't know that doing so would lend itself to this issue very substantially...? Or, perhaps this is just a common winter issue for people living in these colder areas?