dlleno
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Posts posted by dlleno
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Nice! I can confirm that when purging with Ahh-Some that one needs to be very careful to do a complete rinse . I've actually done a partial fill and re rinse .
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I can confirm that Ahh-Some is vastly superior to SeaKlear (my test results here). I have also confirmed experimentally that a standard decon (50ppm for 1-2 hours) was not as effective as a purge with Ahh-Some in controlling biofilms.
I would highly recommend purging with Ahh-Some, and in your situation maybe even more than once (it took two purges for me). One additional step that many overlook is to purge the filters too. if you don't, they will add contaminants back into the spa, so I throw them into the vessel while it is dosed with Ahh-Some. In fact, after I cleaned my filters with a std filter degreaser, and with my spa dosed with Ahh-Some (for the third time) releasing no new material, I installed my (traditionally cleaned) filters into their normal positions and discovered that Ahh-Some released even more material from the filters themselves. Be careful when you do this -- there is a reason the label directions say to remove the filters when purging - it is because the amount of material released may be so high that the filters will clog up. in my case I knew I had a clean spa and "cleaned" filters so I installed them into their normal positions. I was able to wipe up the released material with a micro fiber cloth.
when you have a spa dosed with Ahh-Some, and with filters in the normal positions, and you see no new material release, THEN you know you have a clean spa. yes I'm a hopeless analytic about this
:DI have a corona discharge ozone generator and I can maintain a non-zero bromine level indefinitely with no bather load -- as long as a spider or bee doesn't get in there lol
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This perplexes me from time to time as well, and I'm on city water. the city maintains a network of wells, taking some on and off line from time to time and performing various maintenance activities which tends to disrupt the system in a way that adds turbidity to the water. I see it in the kitchen sink and I know that during this time is not a good time to refill the spa. I've also noticed that when I put a new filter cartridge (those rope wound sediment filters) into my whole house filter (installed prior to water softener) I have to run water through it for several minutes or the water will have foamy behavior to it. I have one of those same filters on the end of my hose as well, and same principle applies. I've actually abandoned a spa fill once when the city's well water was especially turbid. Sometimes those sediment filters help. Yes the city well water is centrally treated with chlorine.
I'm interested in your test results, as with a CA=150 I wouldn't expect a foaming problem. And I can confirm that if you purge a second time with ahh-some without releasing any new material, that you have a very clean spa. The only ideas that come to mind - and you may have already addressed these:
1. with your spa dosed with ahh-some and releasing no new material, did you happen to re-install your filters too? just to prove that your filters are not contributing anything...
2. I have performed a lot of purges with Ahh-Some, and the only time I detected an issue with foam (other than the well water issue above) was when I didn't rinse thoroughly. A small amount of Ahh-Some in the water is fine, but if you have an incomplete drain/rinse it might actually be ahh-some residue in the water that could be contributing.
Still, the fact that you observe foam from your outside spigots, suggests a water source issue... anxious to see your test results.
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Thanks - its very long but contains a lot of detail.. I fought the urge to appeal to those with short attention spans but I hope that the level of detail appreciated on this forum is consistent with the length of the post. Feel free to ask questions here and I will clarify whatever is needed
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nice info thanks. These are slower conversions than I thought. what is interesting is that near the beginning of the water life, the FC/CYA ratio is high (if you are adding straight dichlor. no tabs), such that the conversion to bromine would happen rapidly. About half way through the journey towards 50ppm CYA you will pass the point where the FC/CYA ratio is 10% (say, 3ppm FC and 30ppm CYA). From that point on the conversion will take more than 10 minutes and by the time you reach 50-60ppm CYA the conversion will take 20-ish minutes.
Even more interesting is that if the MPS conversion is even slower (lets assume twice as long) then those who are sensitive to MPS would not want to enter the spa for about an hour or so after dosing.
in my particular bromine plan (posted a long time ago) The calculator website told me that 7 oz of dichlor in 500 gallons would result in 53ppm CYA, so I set that much (or about 1 cup) dichlor aside when I drain and refill -- then, when that is all used up I switch to bleach.
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(sorry for the mis-fire this post was unintentional)
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so lower than 10% FC/CYA slows the conversion? why is that? what if you had no CYA present at all -- you oxidized with bleach on the first fill?
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great info! thats important to know that before 10 minutes elapses you have a partial chlorine and bromine spa. but if you switch to bleach at CYA=50ppm (or earlier) and you dose to FC of about 2-3ppm that would represent lower than 10% FC/CYA ratio right? would that tend to increase the rate of conversion?
also -- what can be said about speed of the MPS conversion -- is it like 2x or 3x or 10x that of chlorine?
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Thanks what kind of times are we talking about for the conversion? seconds, minutes?
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Just in case the readers of this thread are interested, here is my experiment with Ahh-Some and SeaKlear + three other purge products. In the blog post I recommend purging used spas more than once until you obtain a clean spa.
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thanks. I have posted my work here
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Ok thanks. here is the the results of my product comparison
Apologies in advance for typos and other errors. I will continue to clean this blog post up, especially if I have made any erroneous conclusions!
-Doug
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its interesting how some bathers are sensitive to CL but not to Bromine. i would only like to add here that the behavior of the oxidizer in the presence of sodium bromide is subtle. that is, and chem geek needs to chime in here with applicable additions and corrections, my understanding is that a relatively short time elapses from the time the oxidizer is added to the point in time when the bromine conversion is complete. This is assuming there is sufficient bromine bank of course. After that short period of time has elapsed, the bromine conversion is complete and all oxidizers are equal in the sense that they have performed their work to convert the bromide bank, which means they are no longer behaving natively as MPS, chlorine, etc.
The two step bromine plan is really quite good, and yes I have also used straight MPS as the oxidizer and like it alot, as during the conversion you don't have any chlorine smell at all; I just note that during or before the conversion is complete, there are some advantages to using chlorine, so I like to alternate. my primary oxidizer is dichlor which I like because of its downward pH influence, but then I use MPS from time to time like once per week.
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Hi all. as many of you know I performed an experiment a couple of years back, where I compared the performance of five different purge products. the effort took several weeks and thousands of gallons of water, and allowed me to make several important conclusions regarding the behavior of biofilms, the condition of new spas, and the need to perform regular purges.
I have written about my efforts here briefly but I have now compile the information with photos and all of my conclusions in narrative format in a couple of rather comprehensive blog posts. what I want to know is if it is acceptable to this site to post a link to my blog. I make or allow no advertizing -- the site itself is actually my hobby photography site (zenfolio), where you will see some of my photos -- the purge blog is hosted there because thats where my purge photos are located, as they are part of the blog but the site is configured NOT to allow purchasing anything.
I will provide the link to anyone who PMs me but wanted to check first before actually posting the link.
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I performed a 5 brand comparison and have a blog post about it. spaclean, cleanstart, natural chemistry, seaklear, and ahh-some. If I can obtain permission to post a link to it here I will. otherwise pm me and I'll give you the link
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If someone says you need "equal parts " of anything for a bromine spa i would turn around and leave.
The two step method described here works great. All you need is a sodium bromide bank and an oxidizer such as mps, dichlor, or bleach
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is you spa new? did you purge with ahh-some, and if so how much chlorine did you use along with it? by the way, Cyanuric acid will always be low at a fresh fill. it builds as you continue to use dichlor, and by itself is not that important until it gets above 50ppm.
is your water supply particularly turbid? for example have you installed a new sediment filter anywhere in the supply line? do you get frothy water out of the tap as well? I had an experience once with the ordinary sediment filters found at home depot -- the ones that are "rope wrapped" and supposed to be the better of that class of filters. I find that after installing a new one I have to let my tap water run for a while to remove the turbidity introduced by the filter itself.
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great to hear Sponge! like hearing purge success stories :-) my spa was delivered pre-contaminated with biofilms (which grew in transit after wet testing), and i am a firm believer not only in the ahh-some product, but in the practice of purging regularly. I now purge my tub EVERY drain. Once you have corrected a biofilm problem with Ahh-some and a good 50ppm decon, my recommendation for portable spas especially is to simply dose with ahh-some right before you drain. raise FC to some reasonable level to insure a good kill of whatever ahh-some releases, and then neutralize if needed with peroxide before draining.
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+ 1 on the surfactants. when I was evaluating purge products (I didn't look at leisure time) I found that one in particular (natural chemistry) appeared to be a combination of enzymes and surfactants -- so much so that the wildly impressive amounts of foam overshadowed the actual effectiveness of the product.
So yea, I can vouch for the surfactant theory from personal experience.
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arobbert thanks for posting your experience. I now realize that when my spa was delivered it was not only contaminated with biofilm it contained a small amount of the white flakes contamination. the interesting part is that I discovered the white flakes while successfully correcting the biofilm problem with a combination of ahh-some and chlorine. the white flakes were part of the material that the purge released - I didn't do any low-pH treatment though, but I had no where near the problem described here.
The only other comment I would add here is to clarify that the nature of contaminants we are discussing here are unique to the portable spa world, right? except perhaps for a new build, you wouldn't expect this kind of stuff in a pool or a gunnite spa, nor would you want to subject such a vessel to the low-pH treatment, am I right?
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just a footnote on this procedure from my experience in a bromine spa with ozone: the decay rate is NOT linear. if it is, then you have bad guys growing. for healthy water, a good bromide bank and a strong, corona-discharge ozone generator, the sanitizer decay rate asymptotically approaches some very small non-zero number over some long period of time. I have personally measured decay rates of 10%, which implies a very long time before you can use the tub if you start at 10ppm FC equivalent!
My ozone generator runs continuously (I can't shut it off), so I'm very careful not to shock with anything, including MPS (which also produces bromine). Happily, if the water is that healthy then it doesn't need to be shocked :-)
My tub runs at about .5ppm continuously sustainable residual, with no bather load and healthy water - a very nice bonus for vacations and such. the only caveat is that with an outdoor tub, there are alot of things that can upset the perfection, such as a stray critter, some organic matter from nearby trees, or even a wind that kicks up some dust that gets through the crannies of your cover.
so in an odd twist, the consequences of very healthy water in a bromine spa with ozone is that you have to watch that upper limit very carefully!
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QUOTE (JPvZ @ Aug 8 2009, 04:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>To be more specific, I can't run spa flush and super chlorinate in the same water... and then drain?
No. You want to add Spa Flush by itself. Spa Flush is an enzyme that may be killed off by the high chlorine level.
just bringing this topic up again since many of us are using "Ahh-some" which is not an enzyme based purge product, but rather an compound with strong surfactant properties and also some tested ability to kill biofilms. its main properties of interest for the purge is that it breaks loose, releases, or dislodges biofilm contaminants like no other I have tested, and that it is compatible with chlorine. Accordingly, the practice of separating the purge from the decon is no longer applicable for the purpose of preserving the purge. Ahh-Some recommends dosing with CL at the same time; personally, I dose to FC=10 to 20ppm during the ahh-some purge, which saves me 500 gallons of water (I don't have to fill again and then super chlorinate).
I acknowledge that (especially with ahh-some) the purge process can release a fair amount of material which makes the resulting vessel contents an unsatisfactory source of fluid for wiping surfaces -- so I would suggest starting with FC=10 just to make the ahh-some kill more effective, and then you can evaluate your next step. In my experience -- the first purge released so much material I purged again with Ahh-some. When I reached the point where the ahh-some dosed spa had little new material release -- THATS the water that is good for wiping. so you can then raise FC to 50ppm or whatever, and wipe away with the combination of ahh-some and chlorine treated water.
Especially for those of us who purge regularly to avoid biofilm buildup, the practice of dosing your OLD water with 10-20ppm FC and ahh-some at the same time is a fine plan indeed, imho, with the elevated FC insuring a kill for the biofilm material that ahh-some releases. Just keep in mind how effective your water is at moderating chlorine, and to dose accordingly. If your objective is to reach FC=50ppm unmoderated, then a fresh fill is the only way to do that. I would only point out that if the objective is to wipe surfaces, then one can prepare a suitable solution external to the spa
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sorry for the confusion I've decided to give this more thought before posting
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how new is your spa, and have you discussed this with the manufacturer as well as the dealer?
Spa Purge Product Comparison
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
Congratulations! new spas are awesome.
As for the purge, I come down heavily in favor of "yes" on your question. I think there are more of us on this forum in favor of the Ahh-Some purge than not. the same is not true on other forums.
Some (including me) have operated a spa for decades without even one purge. however, I have changed my mind on that point, and now (after my new spa purchase experience) recommend that yes a purge is very wise thing to do. its not expensive; it takes only a little effort, and the benefits in terms of insuring a trouble free spa are just too attractive in my opinion to pass up. Spas are wet tested at the factory and undergo transportation and storage delays, during which contaminants such as biofilms can accumulate -- contaminants that a traditional shock treatment may not remove (and didn't, in my case). For me, my own personal experience and knowledge of biofilms, not to mention the potential for manufacturing side-effects (lubricants used in tubing mfg for example) makes the question a no-brainer, so I personally recommend the purge, yes.
just keep in mind that there are many spa owners who do not do this and are still successful and opine differently. its up to you to decide.
you will note that I came to the Ahh-some conclusion because I personally found it to be superior to the other products I tested. you can decide for yourself, of course, but I'd encourage you to read my story to at least familiarize yourself with the issues that I encountered and dealt with personally.
At the very least, if you do not choose to purge upon delivery of your new spa, you should at least shock it per normally recommended best practices. However, the decision to add a dose of Ahh-Some to that very shock procedure is a no-brainer in my opinion.
Bottom line: You can, as I did previously, choose to use the purge only as an emergency measure if you encounter water troubles, or you could (as I now recommend), purge before the first use and at regular intervals as a preventative step.