NotWetYet

Hey new2spa, Do yourself a favor and use your own judgement to find a reputable dealer with a tub you like in your price range. I just checked this forum after two years since buying a Master Spa and the same slap heads are still here bad-mouthing that brand (for whatever personal reasons). Guess what - they're dead wrong. It is a well built spa and a good value for the features you get. There may be better deals out there, but all the talk about poor quality, lack of insulation, excessive power usage, and non existant dealer support is nonsense. These guys have nothing to back up the Master-bashing and it is a shame they steer people away from their own better judgement. They need to get a life. Ciao, Wet & Warm, 2+years in a Master Spa LS750 P.S. I referred two friends to the Master Spa dealer and they love theirs too. By the way, how does such a crappy manufacturer stay in business? REFERRALS.

Despite my better judgement, I'm going to beat this dead horse one last time. I've had my Master spa tub for almost a month now. We've had a cold snap that has put overnight temps into the low 30's. I have yet to see a drop of over 5 degrees from the spa's temp over an eight hour period. I have the spa heater set to 102 and it cuts off at 4:30 pm. When we get in it around 7:30 pm, it's 101 like we like it. The spa is easily heating up to set temp on the filter cycle and staying there until we get in. Does this sound like a spa with poor insulating qualities? These are facts - all your statements are backed up by nothing. Master spa has a history of skirting problems? Where is this history written - or is it just tribal knowledge (aka hearsay). Please point out where the consumer complaints are located so we can all be cut in on this history. I've had some of the skirting panels off a couple times now. I don't have any problem with them. This is a fact (for me). You may not like the way they look, but for me they are doing the job and look like every other skirting panel. I would also like to see your engineering data on "thin" steel frame vs. wood frame relative strength. What is "thin" anyway? Do you have any data on the thickness of steel framed spas on the market? If you do, let's see it. You ask me for data - I have real world use and facts, that's all. I don't know anything about Sundance other than it's features and I don't argue with the fact that it is likely a good tub too. The only factor to argue over is quality and only time will tell on that. So far, I've had no quality issues with my spa at all. I have two friends who were not so lucky with their Hotsprings spa.

I know you like your spa. Can you tell me why you think its superior in QUALITY? Can you reasobaly tell me from a QUALITY standpoint what mistakes I've made in my above statements? I know you liked the idea of prefilters (which actually can damage the spa by restricting flow to the pumps). I know you are concerned about rodents in you tub. These are FEATURES (that I belive you've bought into on hype). But can you point out where Master is better in QUALITY (failurre rates, BBB reports, dealer issues, engineering? Thanks. ******* The point is I never said it was superior in QUALITY or that any other tub is INFERIOR. What I listed was the features I LIKED and thought they make the tub a decent VALUE. What I call features, you call market hype to disguise Master Spa's cost cutting measures. My, they ARE insidious! I take umbrage at the implication. I don't like wood framed, full foamed tubs for a variety of personal reasons; you do, it's matter of opinion and clearly we'll never agree on it. Why do I think my tub has good quality? It's rock solid, all components are easily accessible, the pumps can blow you out of your seat, the circ pump is quiet. Yes, the skirting is plastic - but easily removeable. I have the tub set up in economy mode (heats during only during filter cycle). The tub was 103 when we got out last night at 8:30pm, and it was 99 at the start of the first filter cycle at 4:30 am. Temps were in the low 40's and breezy. That's 4 degrees in 8 hours - I'm very happy with that. The skirting is cool to the touch and I feel no heat escape. I'm on a time of use meter - that means I pay about 1.4 cents per kilowatt hour for off-peak energy and 14 cents for on peak energy. The Balboa control pack combined with the tub's heat retention capability allows me to program all the spa's heating and filtering during off-peak energy hours. The tub is set up for low-maintenance all the way around. I don't know what else to tell you. Based on what I've seen - I don't buy any of your arguements. You seem pretty shrill in your attempt to shout me down as the only one waiving the B.S. flag on this forum. In the final analysis, I encourage people to not listen to either of us and employ their own common sense. I think most people know a good value when they see one, and too much debate on specious quality issues, i.e. which skirting is the best, etc., is just a distraction from the cold hard facts. You generally get what you pay for despite your claims of marketing smoke and mirrors. You just need to determine what you want in the first place!

I don't know how they sell them. High price, they pretty much have no middleman such as a dealer network, and you can't see or touch before you buy. If you're not going to get a local dealer you may be better off saving the money and going to Costco. I guess some people live way out in the middle of nowhere have nothing else around to pick from.

Since this thread has high entertainment value for many on this forum, I'm going to take one more crack at it and call it a day: What is blown vinyl? I don't know and Google thinks it's a textured wallpaper. Are you claiming Master skirts are textured wallpaper? If you knew anything at all about plastic thermoforming you'd know that about the only thing "blown" are plastic bags from polymer film and my mind from reading your posts. Now, I'm not claiming to be an expert either, but Master skirts are most likely a injection or roto molded polymer. I guess there's a way to blow mold something that thin and flat and that would be just fine in my book since all that dead air space should make the panels have great insulating properties. And if you knew anything about thermodynamics, you'd know most of the heat escapes the tub out of the top anyway, and not from all these elusive "gaps" I seemed to have missed noticing at all. Since your needle also seems to be stuck on warranty weasle words, let's take a look at Sundance's warranty shall we? "All other spa components, including but not limited to the cabinet (both wood and synthetic)...are warranted against malfunction due to defects in workmanship and materials for two years from the date of purchase." Okay, just how does a plastic panel malfunction? Just what does that mean?! Does it have to crack in half and fall off the tub? I guess this lets Sundance off the hook for cosmetic defects, because a plastic panel can have a lot of cosmetic blemishes, and probably some cracks and RIPS, and still get the job done! I'm so confused! Don't get me wrong here - for the amount of money I spent on a Master tub, if it is half as crappy as you think it is, my name will be the first one on the class action lawsuit. I'll run those bozos out of business, then I'll dig a hole in my backyard, throw in an aquarium pump, and jump in for a good long soak! Good Night, Good Grief, and Good Soaking

I think YOU don't understand. You say there are all these BIG differences and you keep harping on the skirting and the warranty for the skirting. I've seen it - it's flat, plastic, looks like wood, hangs on a metal track and is easlily removed with thumb screws. Looks like every other skirting panel, perhaps a bit more easier to remove than most - what else do you want from a plastic panel? If you have some more substantive differences between the two, let's hear them. Unlike you, I have an open mind and would love to find out about it. Forget the full-foam arguement - you've swallowed the marketing purple kool-aid on that one - oh, I forgot, when it's your opinion, it's not marketing! "It supports the plumbing and prevents leaks" - gee where have I heard that one? - oh yeah, the Hotsprings dealer. It also hides the leaks. By the way rip = to tear or split apart, or split along the grain. Obviously a reference to the spas with wood skirts. I guess Master Spa is still covering them.

Not to beat this to death but to clarify: There is quality and there are features. Quality is fit and finish, durability of components, overall design. Can be very subjective for people. FEATURES are what tub A has that tub B doesn't have - fairly objective. Obviously a loud, wobbly tub with a steel frame is not as good as a quiet, rock solid tub with a wood frame. You think features are marketing so I can't debate you on that point - except I bought my tub before I even got a brochure from the dealer. Some features were important to me regardless of marketing. I think you are doing a bit of reverse-marketing yourself when you say no features really matter. Some do matter, but not the same for everybody. It's why some people drive SUV's and some compact cars. A TV or cd player, LED lights, and waterfalls in a tub I will grant are a pure marketing features as they have nothing to do with the operation, longevity, maintenance or quality of the spa itself. Other features do effect operation, maintenance, etc., and should be carefully considered based on individual circumstances. Burrowing critters in the foam was not marketing, it was happenstance related to me by a person I know who owns a spa in my area. Take it for what it's worth. I've also heard bad stories from people with full foam spas needing leak repair. Again, you don't know these people and I do - take it for what it's worth. Stainless steel grills will not last forever, but they do require much less maintenance than regular, painted grills. You pay for that convenience which makes it a feature (or marketing). The ultimate maintenance free spa probably would have a stainless steel frame and pumps with magnetic couplings - but nobody could afford it. We all make choices and calling my choices marketing like I'm some sort of dimwit is condescending don't you think? I didn't call into question anyone else's choices, just pointed out my circumstances and reasoning that led me to a Master Spa tub. It just happened to be the best choice for me. Chances are the same sort of reasoning would lead any thinking person to a completely different tub and manufactuer.

Properly coated steel does not rust - and if you have problems with grills I would recommend you buy a stainless steel one like I have. But according to your reasoning, that would be a marketing gimmick and not worth the extra money. Wood rot and pre-filters may be marketing to you, but they are genuine concerns and desirable features to me and I stated MY reasoning, not just MY opinions. If my tub was going to be up on a deck, I probably wouldn't care about the framing material. Trying to repair a tub that's full of foam doesn't pass my common sense test so I wouldn't want one regardless - but that's me. You don't have my yard nor my likes and dislikes. Opinions are like a**holes, everybody's got one. By the way, passing up on a tub with a lot of value-added features because someone got a warped panel or had a bad experience at a tent sale seems pretty silly to me - and that is my opinion. You may think I have been "taken in" by clever marketing techniques, but the features I became stuck on the most were barely mentioned. I looked in the tub, under the tub and wet tested the tub. I recommend everyone do this and use their own judgement. I was looking for a good value that had specific features I liked, and was as maintenance and hassle free as possible. I didn't want to go the Costco route, but dollar for dollar they are probably the best value overall. Use your own common sense and you'll be all right.

What I did was bargain down to a good deal, then asked about one year same as cash. I made it my "wavering decision factor" saying I was in no big hurry and could wait until Memorial Day when spas go on sale with financing deals. Actually, I wasn't in a big hurry but I did want a particular spa, however they weren't about to let me walk out the door over one year same as cash. Maybe I didn't bargain down hard enough!

HDK, You are right, choosing the correct tub for you is difficult and involves a lot more than asking for opinions on this forum. I'll tell you right up front I'm getting a Master Spa tub - it's getting delivered Friday, but more importantly, I'll tell you why I picked it from all the available tubs in my area: - Steel frame. Virginia is the fifth worst state for termites. Not to mention carpenter ants and carpenter bees and powder post beetles. All wood framed spas are off my list! - Enclosed bottom. My spa will be on a pad at ground level and I have lots of critters in my yard. Moles, voles, mice, etc., and I don't want to give them a nice warm home for the winter. - No full foam. Ditto the above for critters burrowing in and full foam tubs are harder to find and repair leaks in while not being any more energy efficient than the system Master spa uses. - Pre-filter. I have many trees in my yard and keeping all the assorted stuff they drop out of my tub will be impossible. Believe it or not, very few tubs offer a simple pre-filter to catch all this before it becomes entrapped in the pleats of the cartridge filters. Master spa tubs have a simple flat skimmer pre-filter you can hose off - this keeps your real filters working at peak efficiency. This convenience was a very big plus for me, but like I said I have a lot of trees. Right now my deck is covered with hulls from the leaf buds popping open (it's like the stuff that gets caught in your teeth when you eat popcorn). - Neck and shoulder jets. Not too many tubs have the reverse-molded shell feature which gives you the true neck and shoulder jets. We wanted more of therapy tub than a party tub. Mainly, it's just for my wife and myself. - Lots of power. 3 pumps plus a circ pump. Same reasoning for a therapy tub. Again, Master spa features and lay-out are really more for therapy and not that great as a party tub. I also like the remote controls which let you turn pumps on/off hi/low from where you're sitting. - Good dealer. This is always a crap shoot, but the dealer in my area has been around a good while, did not bash the other brands, answered my questions, was easy to deal with and even backed up the product by extending out the manufacturer's warranty. As for quality, I would look at the tub and if things seem put together well and designed well, chances are it's a quality tub. Many acutal components are the same or similar from tub to tub. I work for the Navy in ship maintenance, so I know a few things about pumps and motors. The Master spa tub seemed to have quality components in an easily accessable lay out for repair. I'll clue you in on something - anything with a pump and motor will require repair at some point. The Navy spends millions of your tax dollars on it every year. This was a long answer, but the previous answers to your post seemed more interested in bashing a certain brand than actually helping you decide how to pick the right spa for you. Price, quality, dealer rep are all factors, but only you will know what is the right tub for you. The decision I made was due to my circumstances and what I saw, heard and felt as I shopped around. Good Luck!

I have the same problem with the websites I run for my car club. I wish my web host could block overseas IP addresses totally. I've also had two hacker attacks, and the national car club website was recently hacked into and the forum there was totally lost.

Linda, good for you! I didn't get a chance to respond earlier - but I almost decided on the Cape Cod as well. My wife and I ultimately decided to spend the extra money on the Legend series version of the same tub (LS 750). I think you really got a great value spa that you will enjoy. Mine arrives this Friday - I hope to do a report on it once I live with it for a while and can talk about maintenance costs, power usage, etc.

Unbelievable! Maybe the dealer doesn't know that spas fall into the same big-ticket catagory as automobiles, home improvement, jewelry, furniture and a bunch of others where you typically bargain for the best price. Let's face it, spas are a want and not a need and if the dealer had said no to your last offer, you probably would have bought it anyway sinced you researched and determined exactly what you wanted. If the dealer had any kind of savvy at all he would have sensed this during the bargaining process. If anything, he should be mad at himself and not you. If he keeps up the lousy service you probably have only two options - complain to the manufacturer, or ask the dealer if he wants his tub back!

Yes, I think there are way too many opinions being expressed on "the best tub". Chances are "the best tub" for me will NOT be the best tub for you. I made my decision on the basis of value and dealer support in my area, combined with several features that I definitely wanted. By the way, I didn't mean to divert this thread - I just had a feeling that if I mentioned Master Spa, I would get a negative comment from one of the self-appointed experts on this forum. Thanks for not disappointing.

In my area the dealer wanted something like $12,400 for the Aria and $9,900 for the Vanguard. The dealer said he could give me up to $800 off if I applied it to "extras" like a cover. At prices like that, there should be no "extras" imho. I think the Aria has the sound system as a standard feature, hence the extra cost. I found Hot Springs to be overpriced for what you got, at least in my area. I went with a Master Spa tub - much cheaper, all the "extras" thrown in, more power, better design all the way around (again, imho).