JamesIlsley

A good rule of thumb is 5-10 degrees per hour. I have found about 6-8 degrees per hour is the norm for a hot tub that size. Your milage will vary :-)

You mentioned that you ordered Dichlor? Are you planning on using either a Dichlor or a Dichlor then bleach method? If so you may be in a bit of trouble. The Spa Frog is Bromine and minerals. From my understanding once you have bromine in your water, you have a bromine spa. The only way to go with a chlorine system would be to drain and flush and start all over. You may want to return the DiChlor and go with bromine if you don't want to start over. Also- it is a bit dangerous to just "put a little bleach" in and use the tub. Your water needs to be balanced and you need appropriate sanitizer levels at all times. I understand you are waiting for your test kit- a good test kit is important but in a pinch while you are waiting, test strips from WalMart are a lot better then exposing your spa to unbalanced unsanitized water. In a 14 yr old tub I would also want to decontaminate before starting. 100-104 degree water is a great place for bacteria and viruses to take hold. Do yourself a big favor and read up on all the great information the chem geniuses here have written: Nitro's Approach To Water Maintenance http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13634 A guide to Water Balance and Sanitation using Chlorine Lowering Total Alkalinity http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19149 How to lower TA, without lowering pH Chlorine Demand (CD) http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18706 What is it, and why you should care Decontamination http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19115 How to Super Shock your Tub Do a search for bromine or spa frog to learn how to use it, but just know that it cannot be used in a chlorine spa.

NEVER use bleach it is very high in cya and has a hi PH check your phosphates if they are to hi it can mess with your sanitizers That is not correct. DiChlor adds to your tub's CYA but Clorox Bleach does not contribute CYA at all. (Hence the point of the DiChlor/Bleach method that is working so well for so many on this board) The high PH issue can be mitigated by keeping alk at the right level and using 50 ppm borates to stabablize. I personally add bleach daily to my tub and do not have PH drift and my CYA is stable - hasn't increased since startup using DiChlor to establish the CYA bank.

Sounds like your electrician either needs a serious update on Code, or something more. GFCI breakers are required. Plus, GFCI breakers really only trip for a couple reasons: 1) Improper wiring or electrical short (causing power to ground) or 2) Bad GFCI breaker. 3) Pulling to much amperage through the breaker. So if this electrician is getting call backs for "nuisance" trips, there's probably something wrong with the wiring. Make sure the wire size is correct for 60amp service. Not only from the disconnect to the spa, but also from the main power source to the disconnect. If the wire for instance is too small, pushing 60 amps through it could cause a electrical/fire hazard. ++++++1 Everyone else has touched on the necessity of the GFCI, but pay attention to this post. Double check all the wiring to ensure it is the proper size and type for your installation. If the electrician screwed up the breaker sizing, he could just as easily screwed up the ampacity of ALL the wiring. John Got it. Had it all checked by a 3rd party electrician and then checked it all again myself. I trust no one but myself anymore :-)

neither would I. That is why I fixed it. :-)

Well, the good (?) news is that my date of manufacture is 9/08 which looks like it is before this issues. Will keep an eye on it though.

So an update: I just finished making everything right. When I opened the box, I noticed that not only did he not use a gfci, but he used a 50 amp breaker on a 60 amp spa! I called the manufacturer (who were awesome) and they connected me with their tech guy who confirmed that the model tub I have NEEDs a 60 amp as it pulls close to 50 amps. Doh! I found out that Square D doesn't make a 60 amp gfci, so I got a auxiliary spa box with a built in 60 amp gfci breaker at Home Depot and a Square D regular 60 amp breaker for the main box. I mounted the aux spa box right next to the main box, ran the power through a very stable conduit and wired everything up verbatim to the manufacturer's instructions. Lots of work but it wasn't hard. Not sure why the "electrician" couldn't do it right the first time. So long story short, everything is connected, tested and working great. The new tub is filling right now! Thank you all for your help. I knew something was not right but it is always good to have others confirm what you already know. :-) Hope everyone has a great weekend!

Oh, and yes the breaker box solution does meet code as long as it is in the right position (no closer than 5 feet and in line of sight): "A way to remove power from utilization equipment for swimming pools is required. A maintenance disconnecting means is required for all utilization equipment except lighting. The disconnect must simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors, and it must be accessible and within sight of the equipment. Each disconnecting means must also be located no closer than 5 ft. horizontally from the inside walls of the pool, spa or hot tub. The disconnect can be closer than 5 ft. to the inside walls of the pool, spa or hot tub if there is a barrier installed that would require 5 ft. of travel to reach the disconnect. Other electrical equipment around swimming pools, spas and hot tubs are required to maintain horizontal distances from the edge of the water. Receptacles for pool-pump motors and general use receptacles must be no closer than 6 ft. from the water. Luminaires and paddle fans cannot be installed overhead within 5 ft. of the edge of the pool. Switching devices must be located at least 5 ft. horizontally from the inside walls of a pool, unless a barrier is installed. "

Perfect answer. I will get the proper breaker and install it asap. Good call on double checking that the white and green are not tied. I will check that too. Crazy that this guy is actually a licensed electrician and has been in spa sales for 20 years. (He works for my dealer) I wonder how many people are taking a risk and do not even know it. I am glad I knew enough to immediately do my research. Don't ya hate it when you pay a professional and then end up having to redo the work? So I guess I paid him several hundred dollars to bury a 10 foot piece of pipe.

The GFCI is required in many states, and while I am not an electrician, I was required to have my spa on a dedicated circuit, 240V, 50a, with a GFCI breaker. I am supposed to test the breaker every month. When this new tub was installed, I had a ***licensed master electrician*** (and insured) who has installed hundreds of tubs do the job. As far as I know, the GFCI is mandated by code, at least here in Massachusetts. If you purchased your spa from a dealer -- ASK THE DEALER about code. And -- the GFCI is there for a reason. SAFETY. While I am a slightly educated consumer and nothing more, I would have gone with the GFCI. And, no, given my scope of knowledge on the subject, I don't agree with the installer. Yes, I agree with you. I am changing it out for a GFCI breaker. That is why I am here :-) So the question, does just a regular, properly sized GFCI breaker work for everyone or is there a "special" one that is better at avoiding trips. I would hate to have it trip while out of town in the winter and end up with an frozen situation.

That is what I thought. (He definitely knows it isnt up to code, he just doesn't agree with the code) So I guess the second part of my question is whether there is a 'special' breaker that works better with spas?

Ok, so took delivery of my first spa today. The electrician/installer wired the spa to my outdoor main breaker box about 10 feet from the spa (in sight). Here is the issue: I let him talk me into not using a GFCI breaker. He told me that it was my choice (since I paid for parts separately it didn't make a difference to him either way) but he advised that when he installs GFCI breakers "after about six months people get sick of them nuisance tipping all the time and usually call him back out to put in a regular breaker" He said he had been installing electrical for spas for 20 years and never had a problem and that the regular breaker was safe. So anyway... I am having major second thoughts. I am considering picking up the GFCI breaker and putting it. My question: does anyone agree with what this guy told me? Is the "nuisance" tripping something that happens often? I have seen special "spa friendly" boxes that are supposed to help the false trips but they are all in disconnects (which I dont need since my breaker box is positioned properly as the disconnect.) Is there a special breaker that I should get? Sorry to have so many questions, but before I fill this puppy up I want to be sure I am making good choices :-)

I don't know Four Winds and maybe this is an issue they've gotten behind them but you might want to know this going in and see what their response is. http://nashville.bizjournals.com/nashville...ml?surround=lfn Very interesting article, thanks for posting it. As a 4W owner (July 09 tub) I'll keep my eye on this. The suit alleges formula changes in 2009, and there were already 160 warranty claims, so it sounds like the issues are appearing quickly. If it is a formula problem, I wonder what the impact will be on the rest of the spa industry- 4W isn't the only outfit to use this shell bonding technique. $10M is a lot of jack to be asking for, they must anticipate a landslide of claims. I've been at the factory- several times. They seem to move a lot of product. Much of it appears to go to Europe. FABULOUS! Guess what I took delivery of today....

The four winds factory is local to me. I own one of their spas that I bought off of the floor in Smyrna. It's not perfect, but the guys that run the factory were straight up, and I felt good supporting them. $6k is not a steal but not a ripoff either. They advertise their spas as full foam, but I wouldn't call it the same kind of full foam as a HS or D1 (I've seen them with the cabinets off and there is a difference)- the 4w could be foamed much more. The 4W's are standard 2x2 frame construction, with off-the-shelf components. (waterway jets, balboa vs controller, aqualflo pumps). Overall energy usage hasn't been objectionable, but we had a cold jan, and that bill rang my bell a little (maybe $50-60 but we were in it a LOT with the cover off). Overall, I'd say costs to operate average in the $25/mo range year round. These spas aren't going to command the same respect as the topshelf brands this board favors, but I have been satisfied with my purchase. If you are going for absolute value, don't overlook good used spas. Values drop tremendously within a couple of years of ownership. Whether you spend $15k or 4k on a spa, either will prob be worth $1-2k in 5-7 yr tops. And I'd stay away from the electronic gadgets. Skip the built in stereo, and wire speakers to your home audio system. I bet the master doesn't cover that stereo for 5yr. Usually you'll see 90 days- 6 mo. there's a reason for that. Wow, Reeffreak! Great response. I have been looking out for used but there hasn't been much available in my area (Raleigh NC) 50-60 bucks as a bad month would be just fine with me! People have been telling me the MasterSpa would be 150-200 I am most concerned about the short warranty - i pulled the warranty from the web site and noticed it is Shell structure: 12 years, Shell surface: 5 years, Plumbing: 5 years, Equipment: 2 years, Labor: 1 year. That is kinda icky- the 1 year on labor part. But otherwise, I am likin it.' The 6k includes sales tax. (7.75%) so it is really more like $5575. It is the floor model and has a little chip in the corner (damaged during moving into the showroom) That is why there is the "deal." I am thinking about bartering a little bit and saying throw in a coverlifter and ozonator and call it a deal.

Anyone else have any thoughts before I pull the trigger? There is an old restaurant saying, eat where the truckers eat. If Master had a restaurant none of us would be eating there. If everyone on this website was asked to name their top 5 spa makers (not including the ones they represent but only competitors) I'd be shocked if Master was on anyone's list (unless the list was what brands NOT to purchase). Sorry, just being direct and honest. Nothing to be sorry about. I have visited a few more dealers and am having second thoughts about the Master. Not completely ruled out, but I am leaning towards one from another dealer, basically just giving up the radio and some warranty... Four Winds (Honolulu) Floor Model • 90" x 90" x 37.25" • Six Adult Therapy Positions • 70 Jets Air & Water • Venturi Type Air Injection • (2) 5.0 HP Pumps (No 24 hr circ) • Full Foam • No radio/CD • LED lighting • Vanishing Edge Waterfall • Watershow Fountains • Base Mounted Treated Runners • No Maintenance infinity Cabinet • 500 Gallons • Steps • NO Ozone (Ozone ready- $149 add on) • Delivery and Setup • Cover not as nice as the Master dealer- just a standard cover. • Only two year warranty • Really like the dealer/tech • $6000 including tax I visited another dealer in town (Sundance/Hot Springs) and of course loved everything but cannot justify the extra $3000-$4000 since I plan to move in 5-7 years and the tub will go with the house. I am doing my best to follow the wisdom of the pros on this site and get a well insulated, well built spa. I cannot afford to "eat where the truckers eat" at their gourmet restaurant, but I am doing my best to join them for a good hearty lunch at their favorite sandwich shop :-)