Richs100

As far as I am aware, there has not been a resolution for Atali Awa. You might want to re-read the recent posts.

But Jim-the-Jim is still going strong. Go Figure. I understand its a private forum and all that, but I think I'm done here. Take care, Rich

Let me know if he responds. Seems like a nice guy.

I saw that. Thanks

If true, that would be upsetting and unfortunate. Guess I will just concentrate on reading Jim-the-Jim threads from here on out.... Seems safe enough.

Atali: You can ignore my last post. The thread has been locked. I guess the issue has been resolved to the satisfaction of the manufacturer and dealer Good Luck, Rich

Hey Atali: These posts to multiple threads are very confusing. Why don't you try to limit your updates and responses to one of these. Just a suggestion. I think your main "jets" thread would be the most logical. Rich

In my opinion: Not You.

Boy, after reading that update, my stomach hurts. What a nightmare.

Hey Tom: Thank you for providing us with that additional information. I think it is important to know that. Also, be assured that I did not intend to insult or impune you personally. In my limited experience on this board you have always been upfront and helpful. It was just that the earlier communication made me think twice about what Artic's final position was in this. Hopefully, Artic is examining this situation and will take the appropriate steps to make the customer whole. (IMO, someone at Artic may also want to take a look at how the dealer may be responding to the BBB inquiry) Thanks, Rich

I can truly say that I've never heard of Apollo Spas. I don't think its considered one of the major players. What I meant was Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Sundance, Marquis and their sub-brands. Maybe Bullfrog and D1 (but I don't know much about the last two). I personally would stay away from Coleman and Master. (I have friends who have not had good experiences with them) There are tons of other manufacturers out there, but if your buying used (thus without a warranty), I would be afraid to pick one of these. THIS IS JUST MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION.

Congratulations on the new spa! When you get it set up, post some pictures. Rich

dscam: For what its worth, I've owned two Hot Spring tubs. The first, a 1993 Prodigy, for 11 years and now a 2006 Envoy since last November. The Prodigy ran like a watch. The only repairs I ever had were, once for a tight diverter valve and then twice for a new thermostats. The Envoy has been perfect since I got it except for some difficulty with the stereo remote early on. I sure do love my tubs and would buy Hot Spring again if the need arose. I hear that the other major manufacturers are also very good in quality and reliability. So if your gonna buy a used tub, I think your safe if you stay with the majors. Just be aware that most warranties do not transfer to a second buyer. (I think Marquis may, but I am not sure). For this reason, I would stay away from any used tub with a lot of bells and whistles on it. Good Luck, Rich

Now, I'm really confused. Is Jim now saying that there has never been a side by side test of full foam and themally closed design? I thought that was the point of this alleged Tong & Rogers report. Why is it so hard for him to understand that both systems (if properly executed) work just fine in a hot tub? There are hundreds of thousand satisfied customers out there that prove it. I love that he claims he has a copy of this alleged report and that it proves everything he has been saying, but that he won't release it to anyone. That sure convinces me that he's correct. NOT. The hate and malevolence in his posts comes through so clearly. Someone has got to be pretty dumb not to see right through him. I can only imagine what he might accomplish if he could only channel this energy into something that really mattered.

Hey Spatech: I would like to think that Artic will take care of this, but in Tom's last post in this thread, it appeared that there was still the possibility that Artic was going to attempt to blame it on the consumer. He said "The dealer reports to us that his tests showed excessive biguanide levels in this customer's water. This is clearly a water issue, not a product issue." So, FWIW, Artic appears to be taking the position that their Chinese plastic is not the problem and therefore, they are not treating it as supplier issue. The consumer then disclosed that both he and the dealer had detailed records of the chem levels over the relatively short time this tub has been in use. According to him, they do not appear to indicate excessive dosing. We haven't heard back from Artic since then. The consumer now tells us that the dealer is now trying to blame the consumer in his response to the Better Business Bureau. (Fortunately, he says he has documentation to rebut the dealer) So, it doesn't appear we know what the outcome will be yet. It is an interesting situation, to say the least. Rich

Dr. Spa: Do you know why, if Baqua is well known, documented and proven to eat certain plastics, WHY OH WHY would anyone in the spa industry release such a product to the public. And if it does this, why havent the manufactures prohibited its use in their tubs. I look at my spa and it looks like different kinds of plastics comprise the majority of its structure. I really don't understand this. And I really don't understand how anyone can attempt to blame a consumer who bought a tub just a few months ago, from the manufacturer's dealer, who is the one who set him up with the Baqua. From the git-go with my new HS Envoy, Hot Spring was crystal clear that they prohibited the use of floating bromide sanitizer systems. Although I had used this system for over 11 years, I knew better than to question it, and learned to maintain my system with Dichlor. From what I can tell from the posts, This guy did exactly what his dealer told him to do. Its clearly the dealer and manufacturer that are at fault. Either for bad Chinese Plastic, a bad sanitizer system or both. Thanks, Rich

Chas: Sounds like you've been offered a free trip to North Korea! I'm jealous! I've never been to North Korea. Long Live Jim Il Jong!

My research reveals that Tong and Rogers were actually two drunk Sigma Chi's who got locked out of their frat house one night. In order to stay warm, they jumped a fence into someone's backyard and spent the night in a hot tub. (Full Foam, no water feature, BTW) In the morning, they remembered that they had a report due in their Econ 101 class. Thus, the Tong and Rogers Report was created. They were both given D Pluses on the report, but flunked out of college later that semester. Rogers now works for the US Department of Energy. Tong's promising political career was nixed by an unfortunate run in with the "Boys Gone Wild" film crew in Cancun while on spring break later that year.

Not quite correct, Trigger. At this point, I think its safe to say that it is an ALLEGED University engineering study until its existence is actually proven.

Oh, I didn't catch that from the earlier messages. But, its still kinda funny that I was able to identify the sender even though his name had been redacted, huh?

Gee!.... I wonder who could be sending those e-mails? Who ever it is, he says "many of my customers are real doctors in many fields". There is someone on here who is always telling us how educated his customer base is, but I just can't remember who that might be. I think the theory is that his tubs must be the best tubs in the whole, wide world since smart people wouldn't buy a bad tub. (I, therefore, feel very stupid ,......twice. ) He must also be very smart, too, since we all know sending anonyomous, hate filled e-mails are what smart people always do.

Ok....let's recap so far: - Jim repeatedly cites this elusive energy "Report" that NO ONE ON THE PLANET seems to have a copy of except him. - Tom from Artic asks Jim to provide a copy of the elusive, alleged "Report". - Jim then says "I do have a copy of the darn thing, but like I told Tom, I don't know where it was filed". - Then Jim states that finding the Report would be "an arduous task, that I don't believe I really need to do, because of the proof in the actual spas". - Then Jim provides us with a "direct quote" from the Report. Someone's got a heck of a memory to be able to provide a direct quote from a report that can't be found. What's the "Proof"? (The semi-oval reasoning just kills me!) We are told "The proof is in the actual spas"! Kinda like: We don't need no stinking report! Maybe the proof is next to those "mice caves" in the full foam insulation that Jim keeps talking about. That's all for now from the exciting, continuing Spa Wars debates.

Awa: You have my sympathy with this mess. I can't imagine buying a top o' the line tub and then being caught like this between the dealer and the manufacturer. It's such a shame since I understand that Artic has a reputation for making a very nice tub. You are lucky that you have dealer verification of the levels of Baqua in your tub. In one of the early posts, I felt that Tom, the Artic Rep, seemed to be headed toward blaming you for overdosing your tub. So, hold on to those records. And I also agree that you have a very legitimate concern about the effect that the Baqua may have had on other components in your tub. I certainly would worry about it if it was me. I'm still asking myself why Baqua is still being sold if, as some here say, problems like this have been noted in the past. I know its expensive and I guess it generates a lot of profit, but now we may be seeing the downside of this chemical. I consider myself very lucky that I have well water. When I bought my new tub, we initially discussed using Baqua, but my Hot Spring dealer immediately steered me away from it after I told him about the well water. He does sell it, but said he did not recommend it for anyone on well water. Close call! In my own (uneducated and non-expert) opinion, it certainly looks more like a problem with Chinese plastics or the Baqua. Either way, it should not be your problem. I would love to hear that Artic is going to step forward and replace your tub. 80 jets replaced in a few months is a horrific start for you. Hot tubs are supposed to be for relaxing....not for aggravation, chemical research or science experiments! Good luck, Rich

Well, I've never had a problem with mice making "little foam caves" in my tubs. I had a 1993 Hot Spring Prodigy which sat on a wood platform for over 11 years. Since I live in the country, I have tons of little critters all around. I did have a couple of incidents where mice got into the equipment compartment since Hot Springs did not use the metal screen barriers back then, but never saw any evidence what so ever of mice or other vermin being attracted to the full foam insulation. (I learned I could keep them out of the equipment compartment with a few dryer sheets). When I moved the tub last year for my new Hot Spring Envoy, the underside was absolutely perfect. No rotting, disintergration, mice or vermin holes. Maybe the price for a foam mice condo is too high in my neck of the woods. Or maybe the mice hate the full foam as much as certain other people on this board do?

Oh, I think if I was a judge or juror on a case like this, I could think of a figure that might "make it all better". Maybe just a simple refund??? Let's not kid ourselves....It all comes down to money. (I think that is what the customer used to buy this tub, isn't it?)