gordholio99

Hey Roger: Yes, it does have the 4-wall system with the spa pack residing externally, under a step. It has 27 jets in all, which is way more than enough for us. Moreover, none of them are of the pin-prick directional variety where you feel like you're getting an accupuncture treatment. They're all big and wide and most if not all of them rotate. Can't tell you the number of times we wet tested spas with 50-plus jets, many of them tiny and unidirectional (Coast Spas for one), only to find ourselves huddling in the middle of the tub to escape the feeling that we were being poked to death by needles. :-) It thankfully doesn't have a lot of bling. No waterfalls, no pop-up speakers or TVs, no aromatherapy. It does have an add-on lighting package (several LEDs across the top, above the waterline) that looks real nice at night. We're taking delivery today. Got the same company to deliver our tub that delivers for Beachcomber throughout the greater Vancouver area. I replaced the 10-gauge cable we had for our old tub with 6-gauge cable yesterday, trenching it where it had to be trenched. (Whee!) We hired an electrician who will come by today to install a 50-amp breaker in the panel and a Square D GFI and box outside, near the tub. One other thing - we'd advertised our old tub (for free) for two months in the local craigslist with not one taker. So, on the advice of a few people here, I bought a sawzall and chopped it up. Hate to add to the landfill, but what are you gonna do? Cost me $20 to take it to the dump in two loads inside my minivan. A nice saving over the $400 we'd been quoted by local moving compaines to get rid of it. gordo

Hey everyone: So...I finally bought myself a new hot tub. I've been hanging around here for a couple months, asking questions and, as I gained a little knowhow, replying to other's questions. I found a lot of good advice here, and in particular want to thank Roger, SpaTech, Hot_Water, and The Spa Guy. You guys are all knowledgable and willing to share that knowledge. In the end, I opted to go with a used Beachcomber 580. It's two years old, and has been owned since new by a Beachcomber employee who lives just five minutes away from me and is very definitely a good guy. It's in pristine condition, and I even get the remainder of the Beachcomber warranty (through the one-time Beachcomber warranty transfer plan). My last hot tub was a Beachhcomber, and it lasted 23 years, which I figure is pretty darned good. I personally liked the idea of a non-foam-filled tub because I would have better access to the guts of the tub in case of leaks/repairs, but Beachcomber has obviously been great for me in the past, and there are very few Beachcomber complaints online. And, it doesn't hurt that the tubs are built just a half hour from where I live. So once again, thanks to all who took time out of their day to give me advice. So much appreciated. gordo

Thanks again everyone. Some of you guys are real comedians. NOT! :-) JBuck, no, it's a Beachcomber. And the enitre spa pack (heater, motor, pump) is already history.

Thanks guys. Yeah, I've already tried at $500 and at $300 before I reduced it to zero. Looks like a sawzall is in my immediate future. I've always thought they looked pretty cool anyway, and I'm sure I could use it for a variety of other stuff around the house too.

A poster by the name of "north of boston" mentioned something in another thread that interested me, so rather than hijacking that thread, I thought I'd ask about it here instead. The short question: Can a "sawzall" be used to cut up an old hot tub? I have a very old hot tub (23 years) that I've had advertised (for free) for about a month in my local craigslist. I've tried my best to recycle/reuse it, but nobody is biting. So it's now come to the point where I really need to get rid of it. If I *could* cut it up with a sawzall, I could package the pieces up in my minivan and take them to the dump in two loads. It would save me a lot of money over the $400 I've been quoted by local spa-moving companies to take it away. So...will a sawzall really do the trick? Will it really cut through a shell, etc without breaking on me? Has anyone done this?

But isn't it the duty of the manufacturer to service anything under warranty, even if there isn't a dealer in the area? I realize the service *may" be slower, but is it not the responsibility of *any* manufacturer to make sure you're handled properly, even if that means contracting jobs out to local spa techs?

I would add the California Cooperage 103. I wet tested one of these a couple weeks ago and really liked it. It's 81 x 81 and feels pretty big. And just deep enough (I'm 5' 9"). I like that the seat backs are built such that you *don't* feel like you're sitting straight up. I daresay I almost felt like I was "lounging" in one of the seats. It even has a cute little waterfall. I compared it directly with the Jacuzzi round tub and liked it quite a bit better.

Okay, I'm a total newbie here - though not nearly as much of a newbie as repairit with his two posts. But these are the type of topics that really worry those of us who are getting ready to buy a new tub. Repairit questions the very integrity of D1 (and Hot Spring) by inferring that ABS-backed shells have a much greater tendency to crack. A cracked shell? Honestly, that's potentially worse than virtually anything that could happen to a hot tub. I've watched and posted to these boards many times over the past month, and I have respect for guys like Roger and Spatech, neither of whom seem to have an axe to grind or a manufacturer to boost. AND, they consistently take the time to advise us consumers when we ask questions. They think D1 and Hot Spring are two of the very best (if not THE best) brands you can buy, and most of my research seems to bear that out. Yet here comes a brand new poster, who in his very first post, along with a number of spelling and grammatical errors, says he has 20 years in the biz and then jumps all over D1 and at the same time builds up Maax. Is repairit an independent tech? Does he have an agenda? Who knows. At least guys like hot_water, who also doesn't like ABS-backed shells, puts forth a real argument based on his own engineering experience and findings. As I said, I'm a newbie, but repairit, can you please do more than magically materialize from seemingly nowhere and make rather broad, sweeping claims? Are they big cracks? Repairable cracks? Cracks due to owner abuse? Whereabouts are you? Do you see more D1 tubs simply because there ARE more D1 tubs? Can we know any more about you other than what we do now (which is nothing)?

I was recently looking at both Maax's "regular" line and the "Elite Spas by Maax" line during my search for a tub. If you're a fan of the Maax concept (metal substructure, thermal rather than full foam insulation, easily accessed plumbing, etc), I'm thinking the Elite Spas series is not a bad buy. It's cheaper than the regular Maax line, yet it really isn't very different. I called the Maax head office in Arizona, and they tell me it's virtually the same thing - including the nice big 56-frame pumps and ABS pan on the bottom. Though now that I'm thinking about it, the 3000 is a wood frame rather than metal. Whether that's a postive or a negative is up to you. The 5000 and above is a metal frame, methinks. gord

Thanks for your opinion, Roger. I know that no hot tub model is fool-proof, but a few educated opinions certainly don't hurt. Thanks again.

So...we've FINALLY narrowed our choices down to two tubs. Due to price points and local availability, and through much research and extensive wet testing, we're either going to go with a: Jacuzzi 300 series (J-335) or a D1 Reflections series (Aurora). I wrote a lengthy post the other day looking for the opinions of people who've worked on spas as to which of these two tubs are better built for the long haul, which are easier to work on, etc. I'm primarly interested in which tub will cause the least grief a decade and a half from now. I think I already know the answer but I guess I'm looking for a little verification from folks more knowledgeable than I before we pull the trigger this Friday. Anyway, I didn't exactly get a ton of responses the first time, so I figured I'd try again. And then I'll go away quietly. :-) Thanks very much to anyone who responds.

Hey Spawn. Thanks for the reply. We looked at the J-210 yesterday. The jetting placement, etc. looks nice for sure, but we liked the slightly (5 inches) larger diameter of the 103. I mean, even husband and wife need a little space now and then. :-) Having said that, they didn't have the J-210 filled with water. We couldn't wet test. How did you find the depth? Decent foot well? Water get over your shoulders?

Hey everyone: Okay, after a few weeks of shopping and wet testing and posting here (and realizing that many brands are not represented in our area), my wife and I have narrowed it down to: Jacuzzi J-335 HotSpring Envoy California Coopergage 103 We have *very* good prices on all three. I know this because I'm incredibly "thrifty" (cheap!) and check everywhere to make damn sure we're not overpaying. :-) The Jacuzzi is $1500 less than the HotSpring, which it should be given that it's not part of Jacuzzi's top line, and the little CC 103 is almost half the price of the HotSpring. I have two questions. The first concerns the reliability, serviceability, and properietary nature of the two "upscale" tubs, the HotSpring and the Jacuzzi. Basically, I'm looking beyond the warranty period and would like to know from anyone who has experience with both if one is substantially easier to fix and/or better designed. I'm aware that some tubs are tougher to repair because of the way they're put together, and some tubs use more proprietary parts than others. For example, the Jacuzzi uses an "Emerson" motor that I know nothing about and what to me appears to be an odd-looking heater element. But I know enough only to be dangerous. Haha. So...are there any experienced repair/service guys or general spa experts out there who can give me their impressions of these tubs in this respect? The second question: Obviously, the little, round Cooperage 103 is in an entirely different class. However, we gave it a wet test anyway because we're accustomed to a lack of jets in the ancient tub we currently own. And you know what? We found we didn't mind the lack of jets. Indeed, the gentle swirling this tub offers was in some ways preferable to the all-out jet craziness of the other two. So...given the much lower price tag, we are considering it. The question then: I'm looking for feedback from anyone who's opted to go with a smaller, simpler, round tub over a high-end jet-filled beast. Did you regret your decision over the long haul, or did you find yourself quite content with it? I don't need any info on anything else (ie foam-filled vs thermal pane, comfort level, etc.). I'm at peace with all of that. Just looking for specific opinions on those two questions. Thanks very much in advance to all who contribute. This forum has helped greatly in our decision-making process.

Hey Roger: Yeah, for sure. The price I mentioned - and ALL the prices I'm considering - factor things like tax, delivery, some setup, removal of my old tub (very expensive nowadays in my neck of the woods), etc. Sorry about that. gordo

Thanks guys. You know, I have a Beachcomber tub right now that's survived nearly 23 years. (!!) The *only* reason I'm moving on is that the motor/pump/heater assembly kicked the proverbial bucket after 13 years on the job. The tub itself hasn't caused me any grief. Not even a leak. But...it has just four (4) jets and a pneumatic control system that's a total pain to access. And yeah, it doesn't even have a working light, never mind some cool LEDs. :-) When I got into the search for a new model, I figured $5000 might get me something decent. Well, it doesn't. So maybe I'm just trying to justify parting with 9000 of my hard-earned dollars. But the concensus here is that I'm looking at some of the most reliable manufactueres on the market, and I've certainly done my research. I guess it's purely my decision now. Gulp. gordo

Yikes. 90 views and just one reply. Is it my breath? Hey Roger, maybe you're right. Maybe at this point it comes down to that.

Hi everyone: So, I need a new hot tub 'cause my old one died. :-( I've done a lot of research into the reliability of various manufacturers, have read tons of material online, and have visited every single hot tub shop in my area. I'm not looking for pop-up TVs or audio systems, and I don't neeed a kazillion jets. I want a good, solid tub (with a lounger) that'll last a long time and cost very little to service and operate. I'm really torn between full foam and non-full-foam cabinets. The former probably delivers better insulative qualities, but the latter is definitely easier to work on. The thing is - it's really tough to decide. Dealers will tell you what they want to tell you, and there doesn't appear to be any true, authorative studies of reliability or energy-efficiency. But I have gained a lot though reading this and other discussion forums. Anyway, after factoring limited local availability, cost, design, and personal viewing and wet testing (and dealer competency - there's at least one very good brand that I just won't buy locally because I don't like the dealer), I've whittled it down to these tubs: HotSpring Envoy, Jacuzzi J-335, Beachcomber 550, H2O Radium. The first two are manufactured by two of the long-time industry leaders who just about always appear when someone in these forums gives an opinion of the better tubs on the market. I am, however, a bit worried that they both seem to have more proprietary parts than the others. Might be a bit of a hassle or more pricey for after-warranty service. Beachcomber also rates highly, especially in my area (I don't live far from their manufacturing facility), but I do think they're a bit old school when it comes to designing tubs. The skirting, for instance, does not have easily-opened panels for servicing. H2O is a smaller outfit, but they use real high-end parts and I like their concept of using easily-removeable Roxul for insulation. I also had a chance to tour their plant yesterday and was impressed. Still, they're relatively new (though founded by people from Beachcomber and Pacific Spas) and smallish. In that sense, I would miss the relative security of one of the industry's giants. I've struck good deals on all of the above, so price doesn't really enter into it. I'm going mental without a tub, so I want to make a decision within the next few days. I definitely want to stick with one of those four, but if anyone more knowledgeable than I would care to offer an opinion, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance, and thanks to everyone who takes the time to help us non-professionals better make their decision.

Hi Roger: Yes, you are right. I have a 23-year-old Beachcomber tub that is as leak-free today as it was when it was born. It is an energy pig at this point, but that has more to do with the decrepit 13-year-old motor/heater than anything else. I am considering Beachcomber, especially considering that I live within a half hour of Beachcomber's head office and plant. But I'm also looking at HotSpring (foam), Jacuzzi (foam), and Maax (thermal). I'd also be considering Arctic, but I get the distinct impression from the sheer number of complaints at virtually all the dominant hot tub discussion forums that Arctic quality control and finishing simply hasn't been up to snuff. (Also, there's no longer an Arctic dealer in my geographical area.) But yes, Beachcomber is definitely up there. Thanks for replying!

Hi James: Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm very aware that the complaints I see on the Internet aren't fully representative of the experience of ALL your customers. I mentioned that in my first post. As we all know, the Internet is a great place to get your bitch on. However, when you turn to all the popular forums and see page after page after page of generally angry complaints directed toward Arctic (and so many Arctic customers straight-up warning others away from the Arctic brand), that would seem to indicate a real trend. And that's sad because I know Arctic is Canadian (as am I) and I do like the easy access to under-shell plumbing your system delivers. I will check out the site you mentioned and I'll try to keep an open mind while doing so. But even if I magically reverse the opinion I've formed in the past few weeks of serious research, it seems I couldn't even see an Arctic in person unless I traveled somewhere outside the greater Vancouver area. And I don't want to go to Calgary or even Vancouver Island to buy a hot tub. Am I correct in thinking you currently don't have a Vancouver area dealer? Thanks.

Hi everyone: I'm getting very close to replacing my 25-year old (yep, 25!) Beachcomber hot tub. I've been thinking strongly about moving to a tub manufacturer that uses thermal insulation rather than full foam because it makes sense to me that future "interior" repair issues would be far easier if the serviceperson (probably me) could easily access the hoses and clamps and other bits and pieces rather than digging through tons of blown insulation. For that reason, and because brands are somewhat limited up here in B.C., I figured Arctic might be the answer. But, despite some who say Arctic is a top brand, there are simply so many highly dissatisfied Arctic customers at so many discussion forums all across the Internet that I have now ruled out Arctic as a possibility. I really had no other choice when considering where to spend my ten thousand dollars. Honestly, from jets that pop out (apparently now somewhat rectified) to FLO errors to sludge to pump problems to apparently poor customer service and oodles of other complaints, Arctic now has a bad 'Net rep. And yes, I realize the Internet is a great place for people to bitch and complain, but when I see this many pissed-off customers, many of whom have repeated, seemingly never-ending problems, I can only go with what I see. On top of all that, I can't even find an Arctic dealer here in the Vancouver area. So why am I even posting? I guess to let Arctic know that all the marketing in the world can't cover up what appears to be the grim reality of the situation. Granted, it looks like there are a few Arctic people on this forum who are trying to rectify some of the problems, but how did it get so bad in the first place? Moreover, NOBODY should have to get to the point where they feel their ONLY option is to air their valid gripes online. The manufacturing process should have been far, far better to begin with, and the customer service should have been far, far more responsive/helpful. Hard to believe Arctic didn't forsee that these days, word of mouth is no longer confined to private conversations between neighbours.

Quantum, thank you!! Sounds totally reasonable. Just went back out there and noticed the motor itself is also leaking. Wonder if a rapid rise in temp had something to do with it. All I know is that this motor is loud as heck and has cost me a couple hundred dollars over the past couple of years. Methinks it's time to get a new one. BTW, would anyone know if a temp of 122 would destroy any of the seals within the hot tub insulation? I think I would cry out loud if I got a new motor, thinking it would give me a few more years of relatively maintenance free hot tub use, only to find out I have to spend a ton more money digging into the tub surround to repair another leak(s). gordo

Hey everyone: Okay, for some bizarre reason, my hot tub temperature suddenly (in the span of a day or two) increased from 104 degrees to 122 degrees. Yes, 122!! Does anyone know why something like that would happen? It's an old pump/motor (12 years or more), so having something go wrong was expected, but this seems very weird. Thanks very much in advance to anyone who replies. gord

Complete newbie to the forum and I hope someone has the time to respond to some pretty basic questions. I have a 20-year-old hot tub. It has a truly massive gazebo surrounding it (about the size of a small cabin and with a large, shingled roof). It's built of long 2x2 boards. The tub is fully sunken into the gazebo, and is, in fact, custom fitted to it. The fit is very tight – even the 2x4 braces that support the gazebo butt right up against the hot tub's cedar skirt. Anyhow, it's an old spa obviously. It has "air controls" on the topside to control the jet speed, but if I want to change the temperature, I have to access a rotary temperature dial that's located on the spa pack, underneath a very heavy trap door on the gazebo (and amongst a lot of spiders!). There really are no other controls with the exception of an on/off switch (again under that huge trap door), and certainly nothing as advanced as a timer or digital control. In addition, the 2 HP pump/heater unit is at least fifteen years old. It's noisy (bearings?), it's been taken out for service twice in the past three years, and I have no idea how it's survived this long. The tub itself is in excellent shape, having had a roof over it forever. And it certainly isn't cracked or anything, undoubtedly because it's on a cement pad and is basically wedged in there so it simply cannot shift. But it has just four (4) jets. Yes, it is old. So…I want to do one of two things. Option #1: Buy a new, more efficient, more modern spa pack with digital controls that can be mounted to the top of the hot tub, a timer, and all the other benefits of modern technology. Up here in Canada, this option would run me a bit more than $1200 installed. But I'd still be living with an old (but solid) tub with just four jets and ancient insulation. Option #2: Toss/recycle everything and buy a new tub, electronics, everything. Not only would this give me new electronics, but it would also give me a ton more jets, better energy efficiency, better convenience, a lifetime warranty on the tub itself (I've already decided to go with the locally-headquartered Beachcomber). This option would run me more than $6000 once I factor in the carpentry involved in removing the old tub, and fitting the new one into the gazebo. My questions for all you helpful veterans out there: 1) Would a totally new spa setup really be so much more energy efficient that I would notice a big difference in my hydro bill every month? 2) Over the long term, after the honeymoon period wears off, would a tub with 20-plus jets really feel that much better than the four I have now? In essence, is it the massaging action of the jets that's important, or the hydrotherapy of being in warm, moving water? Despite my current 4-jet setup, the water really does get moving in there. 3) Can older hot tub shells survive far beyond 20 years, especially if they're sheltered and supported in a cocoon-like gazebo, or should I feel lucky it's remained un-cracked and un-leaky this long? 4) If I go with Option #1 and just replace the spa pack, can anyone point me to a good brand and model? Who makes the best "guts"? I do not have unlimited wealth, so this is a big decision for me. Thanks very much in advance for your time!