dark rider

Very true based on what I've read as well... Historically, saltwater systems for hot tubs have had difficulty keeping up with the changing demands in a hot tub environment (heat, less water, more contaminants). I really liked the allure of the softer water, extended drain intervals, chemical savings, and automation though. The HotSpring product does appear to be unique in that it can generate more than just chlorine though. The 3 year test cycle that HotSpring underwent before releasing it, user testimonials, and my dealer's overwhelming support of the product convinced me that it was worth checking out, especially since the discount without it would have only been about $500. I plan to report my candid feedback after living with it for a while. I'm hopeful that it lives up to my expectations, but if it doesn't, the good news is that the tub can easily be converted to the standard chemical regimen.

Thanks Jayhawker, we're really looking forward to getting it! The temperature is finally starting to drop in the evenings here in Atlanta, and there have been a couple nights where my wife and I both agreed that it would have been a perfect night to be in the tub. Still probably about 2 - 4 weeks out at this point from the quoted 4 - 6 week delivery timeframe. I plan on calling the dealer next week to check on my subpanel, since I still need to get the electrician out. Did you go with the ACE Saltwater on your Grandee? Curious to hear other users impressions. I spoke with a couple of folks that my dealer had referred, and all seemed to really like it.

Well, for disclosure purposes, I can no longer claim that I'm unbiased, since I just purchased a new ACE equipped Grandee this past weekend (delivery in 4-6 weeks)! I am hopeful though that ACE will meet or exceed my expectations. My dealer pushes ACE pretty hard, even if he has to discount it pretty significantly, because it also makes their lives easier. He estimated up to 80% of their service calls were water related, and he has yet to have to make a single water relateed service call for an ACE equipped tub, with more than 20 in the field. I think we can all agree that $800 is at the extreme end of chemical savings, and that the average user would not see that kind of savings. However, it is possible that Silkbalance users would also gravitate toward the ACE system due to the softer water, which Silkbalance also relies on. When we wet tested both times at HotSpring, the ACE equipped Envoy was noticeably softer than their other tubs, which were traditional dichlor/chlorine. The water in it had not been changed since it hit the floor (8 months), and it looked and felt every bit as clean as the water in a new Grandee on the floor that had a fresh fill. Neither tub had a noticeable smell. Granted none of their tubs sees heavy volume, but I was still impressed after seeing the reports from those that can't maintain consistent readings for more than a few months at a time without refilling (most likely due to overdosing). ACE isn't magic, and it won't eliminate your need to test perform any maintenance (filters, salt, and electrodes), but it should make maintenance a lot easier, provide for softer water with fewer chemicals, and save some $$ in the process. Either way, I'll be sure to report back with my impressions based on my actual findings once I'm up and running for a while.

No worries gman! I've been having the same problems with the forum as everyone else. I never did get a chance to wet test a Vanguard, and although the thought of saving a few $$ was appealing, like jayhawker originally suggested, once you start reviewing all of the differences between the Grandee and the Vanguard, it's worth it to move up if you have the space. The $$ difference between them also wasn't nearly as much after I factored in the additional discounting I got on the Grandee, and little things like the Tri-X filters that don't come standard on the Vanguard. Once the tub is up and running, I'll be sure to post back with some pictures and impressions of the entire experience.

Well, after countless hours of researching, wet testing, debating, etc., I finally made a decision! Heck, I don't think I spent this much time shopping for my house or any of my cars! Before I divulge what I bought, let me first say thanks to all of those who stepped up and offered advice and those who've just been regular posters and shared so much expertise! This forum has been a valuable resource in helping me research and make an informed decision. Had I not come here, I likely wood have bought a lesser tub in an effort to save money, and probably would not have been nearly as happy with my purchase decision. Some advice I would pass on to others who are in the shopping process. 1. First and foremost, wet test any tub you are seriously considering. The differences between brands varies GREATLY, and no two models, even from the same manufacturer, feel or fit exactly the same. Wet test your top two or three tubs on the same day if at all possible, so that differences are fresh in your mind. Don't be afraid to wet test multiple times either. We ended up wet testing our top choices twice. 2. The total number of jets doesn't mean a hill of beans when comparing tubs. The jet placement and design far outweigh the total quantity! 3. Stick to the reputable brands. They will be far more reliable overall, and easier to service when you do have any potential issues. 4. A good dealer relationship is key! When you purchase a tub, it isn't going to be the last time you see your dealer. Learn how he/she operates, how long they've been in business, and how happy their clientele is. You may be one of them. 5. Take time to learn what features are important to you and how you plan to use and care for the tub. Each manufacturer brings different things to the equation, based on their design and build philosophy. This will help you narrow down your search. 6. Price. Establish a budget based on #5, and include the total cost for installation as well (pad, electric, etc.). Use the forum to help you determine what similar pricing others have gotten for the same model(s). Let the wet test narrow down your top choices, and then figure out your likes and dislikes for each. Take into account all of the factors in making your final tradeoff decision, not just price! All that said, I ended up going with... *drumroll* a new 2010 Hot Spring Grandee in the Pearl/Espresso finish with the ACE Saltwater system, matching Everwood steps, Uprite coverlifter, booster seat for the Mrs., 6 months salt/startup chems, delivery and installation (includes decking buildout to accomodate slate, since the Grandee can't be shimmed). With the labor day special and some negotiating on my part, my pre-tax sales price was $10,395, and I'm quite happy with what I got for that price! I signed the paperwork on Saturday, and will take delivery in four to six weeks. For those wondering, what sold us on the Grandee versus the Optima, which was a very close runner up... Here were our considerations: Cost of ownership, both inital and long term and ease of maintenance with ACE and Tri-X filters were less than the Optima. The extra size is a nice bonus for entertaining. The ingenious arm wrests sculpted into the shell, which we only noticed during the second wet test, made the barrier free seating just as comfy without sacrificing the space. Dual Moto-Massage is wonderful, and we didn't notice it the first time, but those seats have different proportions for different sized users. The topside and auxillary controls are much better than the Optima. While a step down in power from the Optima, the Grandee still has excellent power and does not rely on bypass filtation to get it. We'll probably miss the foot dome a bit from the Optima, and maybe the Sunscents/air as well, but not enough to justify the added cost and maintenance.

Looks like you're right Spawn... I came across this link when doing a search, Autofresh, which has a diagram of the AutoFresh system. It's Baqua based, as you suspected. I'd still rather have the ACE system, which appears to have replaced it, as I no longer see it as an option. Maybe one of the Hot Spring dealers can clarify.

I think what you've described is just the Hot Spring's Nature 2 alternative and still requires MPS. ACE is the only system I'm aware of that needs no additional chemicals after the water is stabilized, besides the salt. Regardless of the dealer's unscrupulous tactics, I would think that the system would appeal to more than just those who don't want to deal with the hassles of a chlorine regimen. At even a modest $250 a year in chemical savings, the buy-in will more than pay for itself over the course of the spa's life. Not having to deal with the hassle is just an added bonus! I talked to one user (referred by my dealer) that has had the system for about a year. He travels a lot, and he said he was confident that he could leave it alone for a month or more at a time, and it would still test at ideal levels when he returned. I'm still shopping, so I'm not a Hot Spring zealot by any means, but if I do buy a Hot Spring's tub, it will have ACE. For those pricing, the difference at my dealer was only about $500 more with than without as well...

Congrats on the Grandee jayhawker! The Grandee would be about $1600 higher with the same extras for us, around $10,500 pre-tax. With all of the options I listed, I think both are great prices, based on what I've seen, but the Vanguard appears to meet our needs better than the Grandee. With only 2 adults and 2 kids, the only time we'd miss the extra space is during parties (not often). The physical footprint of the Grandee isn't really a problem. It would be a little tight, but it would fit on our patio area. My wife has trouble reaching the footwell jets in the Grandee though, whereas the smaller footwell in the Vanguard makes it easier based on her small stature. The loss of the second DX Moto Massage is a minor concern, but I don't think a second DX is worth the extra $1600 to us. How does the single jet Moto Massage feel in comparison to the DX? It looks like it would target your spine, which may actually be nice to have some variation. The dealer also said they have an aftermarket jet/faceplate option as well that only fits the single/base Moto Massage that he could get for us as a 2nd option for little cost. The downgrade in water feature to the soothing creek is also probably a good thing, since we weren't terribly fond of the Bella Fontana... All of us, except the 6 year old anyway who got great joy from making it "pee on us!" The pumps are my biggest concern. I'm sure I'd be happy if the Vanguard can put out similar power as the Grandee with smaller pumps/fewer jets, but if it's not as strong, I'd probably have regrets about not going with either the Grandee or the Optima. Based on feel alone, I think the Optima would still be our winner. It's a darn good tub by it's own right, and minus the ACE and current deals would likely be an easy choice for us.

Is it true that the ACE system generates more than just chlorine? I was told that the diamond ionization process is unique in that it produces chlorine (not dichlor; ie no CYA), Hydrogen Peroxide, and MPS. I've read here that hydrogen peroxide and chlorine have somewhat offsetting effects, but I'm guessing since they can achieve effective sanitation levels from just the salt alone, this wouldn't matter, as neither is harmful. Thoughts? I love the idea of the ACE system, and simplicity of maintenance, but just wonder if there are any downsides other than the heavy equipment buy in cost up front, which doesn't even seem to be bad given the current pricing. The salt level monitoring by the control system and the fact that you can easily lower or raise dosage based on demand (parties and usage patterns) are also great ideas. I know that it still requires some monitoring and maintenance, but to never have to handle chorline or bleach, kudos to Hot Spring! The dealership is also saying they're seeing extended drain intervals between 6 and 12 months depending on usage and cleanliness of bathers. Any experienced users want to comment?

Is it true that the ACE system generates more than just chlorine? I was told that the diamond ionization process is unique in that it produces chlorine (not dichlor; ie no CYA), Hydrogen Peroxide, and MPS. I've read here that hydrogen peroxide and chlorine have somewhat offsetting effects, but I'm guessing since they can achieve effective sanitation levels from just the salt alone, this wouldn't matter, as neither is harmful. Thoughts? I love the idea of the ACE system, and simplicity of maintenance, but just wonder if there are any downsides other than the heavy equipment buy in cost up front, which doesn't even seem to be bad given the current pricing. The salt level monitoring by the control system and the fact that you can easily lower or raise dosage based on demand (parties and usage patterns) are also great ideas. I know that it still requires some monitoring and maintenance, but to never have to handle chorline or bleach, kudos to Hot Spring! The dealership is also saying they're seeing extended drain intervals between 6 and 12 months depending on usage and cleanliness of bathers.

gman, still on the fence here =) Did you by chance also wet test the Vanguard? I'm interested in your candid impressions. Others feel free to chime in as well. Hot Springs is running a very good Labor Day promotion, and I could get a new factory order Vanguard with ACE, Uprite cover lifter, matching Everwood steps, startup salt, Calcium softener pillow, PH balancer, test strips, a booster seat for the kids, and delivery installation at a steal of a price (just under $9K before tax). I'm still waiting until after this coming weekend to make a final decision, but Hot Springs is really fighting for my business! The Grandee is also heavily discounted, even more than I posted above, but the better half likes the sizing better for the Vanguard (both physical tub footprint and internal size). We dry tested a used one, but they don't have a new one to wet test. Specifically, I wanted to know if the two single speed pumps were strong enough and how they compared to the Grandee and Optima. I don't think we'd miss the extra jets from the Grandee if the remaining jets were as strong. I'd still miss the Optima foot dome and Air/Sunscents though, but the $1500 in initial savings and ongoing chemical and water savings over the life of the spa do add up, even over the least costly chemical alternatives. Factor in the ease of maintenance and it is certaily a compelling argument. Decisions... Decisions... I'll be sure to post up whatever we decide, and I thank you all for your feedback! This forum has been by far the best resource I've found in gathering information to make an informed buying decision.

LOL, you saw the empty reply and thought it was going to be a Master Spa post didn't you? Your Texas Balloon race thread cracks me up!

Wow, good to hear that the entire experience at Premier Hot Tubs was excellent! I wasn't going to call them out by name, but that's obviously where I'm shopping at as well, since they're the only metro Atlanta Sundance dealer. Your thoughts/impressions mirror many of my own. When we wet tested, we didn't make any kind of appointment. We just stopped in not realizing that they have shorter hours on Saturday. Even though we got there about an hour before closing, we didn't feel rushed at all. Both James and Sherry stuck around with us for almost an hour after the store closed. They were by far the most customer oriented of the dealers we shopped!

Thanks for the info, it didn't shop up on the search when I tried multiple Atlanta zip codes. I may see if they have other models to wet test, but if I end up with a Hot Spring product, I'd likely go with the more local dealer. They have good technical knowledge, are very convenient to me, and had good pricing overall. gman, thanks for the info. It is very helpful! It seems like you got a good deal on your '09 Optima. I'd like to get pricing right around $10K similarly equipped. I will need to finance about half the cost, so I will likely take advantage of his 12 months same as cash financing. The owner of the dealership ballparked me in the Mid $10's without negotiation at the store (Ozonator, matching synthetic steps, cover lifter - I didn't specify, but the floor models all had hydraulic assist, and he said that's the one he includes, so I'm guessing it's a Covermate III?, startup chemicals and delivery. The exterior lighting would also be nice, since I'll be putting the tub on a patio under a deck. The Sunpurity and Suncents are relatively cheap, so I'm sure I can probably get him to include some. I've been into the store twice now. Once to see what he had, and a second time to wet test. Both times, the owner was present. He is an all around likeable guy, and was very knowledgable and helpful. He worked his way up through the ranks as a spa tech and eventually bought his own dealership, so he is more technically inclined than most, and you can tell he loves what he does. From a sales standpoint, he's not at all pushy. In fact, he came right out and told us that his best pricing would be at an event a couple of weeks from now, so that's why we're holding off on a written quote. In negotiating, we will also need to take into account one thing that wouldn't be part of a standard install. Our patio is slate over concrete and I measured the runoff slope to be 2" over 14'. The dealer said that he would require a pressure treated decking underlay with angle cut runners to level the pad and account for any unevenness in the slate itself. He also said it would spread the weight more evenly to prevent cracking of the slate if we ever got rid of the tub. I could likely mock one up pretty easily, but I'd prefer they do it to leave no question as to warranty.

No, unfortunately it's a single location, and they are the only Hot Spring brands dealer in the metro Atlanta area. They only had about 4 or 5 tubs on the floor, and the Grandee and Envoy were the only two filled. They have a pretty large warehouse area in the back though, which is filled with mainly refurb tubs. I got the feeling they move a lot of used/refurb inventory and most of their new tub sales are custom orders.

No I didn't get a chance to see the Limelight Pulse. The Hot Spring dealer can order it, but didn't have any Limelight tubs in stock to wet test. After wet testing a bunch of different spas, I don't think I'd order a tub without wet testing first.

I wet tested the Envoy as well, and they just put a new Grandee on the floor to wet test. $10,800 for the Grandee did not include tax and was after some negotiation... The original price quoted was $11,200. Keep in mind you can likely save more money if you don't want or need the Ace saltwater system. The Hot Springs tubs are very nice, but I'm still leaning toward ordering a new Sundance Optima at the moment though, as I got a really good feeling from the owner, and my entire family was unanimous in our vote after wet testing. I looked at the Caldera lineup today over at Rec Warehouse for kicks, which has some good deals on floor models, since they're relocating, but I would never use them for service. The salespeople had a strong used car vibe, and didn't have a clue what they were selling. They didn't have a Niagara, but did have the Tahitian for $7399 w/steps, lifter, startup chemicals, and delivery, which seemed like a good deal. Just my opinion, but I think build quality was a step down from Hot Spring and Sundance though.

No idea on the Jacuzzi. I liked the tubs well enough, but wasn't terribly fond of the local dealer and it's a bit further than I'd like to travel for any service items. I just recently got pricing on the Hot Spring Vanguard in Atlanta area though. I was quoted $9,200 for the Vanguard with ACE, steps, cover lifter, and delivery/setup. Hope this helps.

I'll be making a purchase decision some time this month, and want to know what I should expect to pay for a new 2010 Sundance Optima versus a Hot Spring Grandee. I'm in Atlanta area and both dealers include steps and cover lifter in their pricing. The Atlanta Hot Spring dealer quoted me $10,800 for the Grandee with ACE, which based on what I've seen appears to be a very good price. I'm still awaiting best pricing on the Sundance, but I'm guessing it will be low to mid $10's with ozonator. I haven't seen that much pricing here on new Optimas, so I thought I'd see if anyone else has purchased and what they paid in their area? As much as I like the Grandee, I'm leaning toward the Optima based on our wet test. Both are wonderful spas though, and truthfully I'd be happy with either one! Here's my take on the pros and cons of each, in case any of you are interested. If you've shopped these recently, I'm interested in your feedback as well. Grandee Pros: ACE salt and Tri-X filters will likely save money overall in chemical and replacement costs. Very intuitive controls (best I came across in wet testing), and the auxillary controls made it easy when you're in the tub. Barrier free seating is nice for large parties or intimate affairs Moto massage works very well in conjunction with the neck jets. Standard versus optional Ozonator Excellent LED lighting Grandee Cons: Not terribly fond of the Bella Fontanta water feature. Is it just me, or does it feel/sound like someone is peeing into the hot tub? Was more annoying that soothing. Not enough foot jets (probably my biggest negative) Seating not as comfy due to "barrier free" design Pillows felt somewhat cheap and didn't look as nice, but I'm guessing they're durable No air jet option Optima Pros The foot dome is extremely good and well thought out! The jet customization and power were overall slightly better on the Optima than the Grandee, with the Moto Massage being Hot Spring's "Ace in the hole", which is undoubtedly tough to beat, but I might question the need for two of the exact same configuration. Wereas, every seat on the Optima feels distinctly different, and I liked and would use every one of them. Air and Sunscents are more than just a gimmick surprisingly. I really enjoy both the cool/tingly feel of the air jets and the smell of the Sunscents. It really adds to the experience. Formed seating is very comfy! Impeccable build quality, including the pillows Water feature is customizable and less intrusive/more soothing that distracting Optima Cons Slightly less room for entertaining, but does have one "couples seat" No Ace option and requires 6 month replacement of microfilter, which will obviously equate to more upkeep $$. Controls were not as intuitive, but still very usable. I like the ability to flip the LCD screen for in tub viewing, but still wish it had aux. controls on the opposite side. Ozonator optional There you have my .02 for what it's worth. Now I just need to figure out which makes the most sense from a practicality and price point of view.

We're wrapping up our shopping now, and looked at both new and used. A word of warning. If you buy private sale used, you're not getting any kind of manufacturer warranty whatsoever (none are transferable regardless of what the seller says!), so you better be darn sure of either your own knowledge or have a professional look the spa over to ensure it's the deal that it's made out to be. Not to say good deals can't be had off of craigslist, but it can also be a big gamble as well, so at least find a tech who is willing to inspect the spa for a reasonable cost. If you buy from a dealer used, you'll likely get at least some type of minimal dealer warranty, and the reputable dealers typically won't peddle junk, but expect to pay a premium for a well gone through used tub. On average, I found used pricing for tubs 5 years or less old from dealers to be between 50% - 70% of new pricing (highly dependent on specific age and model changes). That's still a pretty significant difference over new, so if you can find exactly what you want used from a dealer, and still get reasonable warranty terms (make sure the dealer has been around for a while and will continue to be around), than I'd definitely say go for it. Several of the reputable dealers in my area sell a significant amount of dealer refurbished tubs. One of those dealers went as far as saying he had yet to see a tub that he took in trade or bought used for purposes of resale that didn't need some servicing, regardless of how new, clean or well kept they were. I'd speculate that the dealers costs on average come nowhere close to making up the depreciation hit, but if you're particular about colors, features, and maximizing life, and enjoying a full warranty than buying new isn't a bad deal either, once you get past the sticker shock at least

We just got done going through the process of wet testing, and I couldn't agree more. Make the effort to wet test any spa you are seriously considering buying, and bring the usual suspects with you when you do! You'll not only get a good feel for the tubs and what works or doesn't work for you, but also the dealerships (sales experience and technical expertise) as well. My kids were more than eager to come along, but I had a hard time convincing my wife to wet test. I got every excuse under the sun, but I finally told her that it was important to me to make sure she likes whatever we buy, because of the $$'s associated with the purchase and the length of time it will likely be with us. She finally reluctantly agreed, and we were both happy she did. It wasn't at all uncomfortable (not a lot of foot traffic), and the wet models were very clean. Each of the dealers will try to convince you that there tub is superior. Some of the sales pitch will be legit differences between brands, technology, and specific models, and some of it may just be hype. If you stick to the better brands, you should end up with a good tub regardless of what you buy. However, my personal recommendation would be go with the tub that fits and feels the best to the majority of those who are going to spend the most time in it. If it's too close to call between the tubs you like, let the dealership be the deciding factor, followed closely by price. I'm still waiting to seal my final deal, but I'm leaning toward a Sundance Optima at the moment FWIW. We went in undecided about whether or not we'd want a lounger, and both the kids and wife both found them uncomfortable in actual use, and I wasn't about to take up two seats unless it was worth fighting over!

Any thoughts on how the salt will impact the components long term?

Thanks Dennis! I definitely plan to check out D1 as well. I was impressed by several of your models, including the Lotus Bay (probably out of my price range), Nautilus, Nautique, and Sojourn. I had already looked up the dealer in Marietta and was planning to stop in during the next couple of weeks. I'm probably a month or 2 out from buying at this point, unless I find an unusually good deal, but you can certainly forward my information and let them know what I'm interested in. Craig

Hey James, I didn't even realize you guys were right around the corner. I'll certainly stop in and check out the Sundance line. I just looked on-line, and the Optima, Chelsee, and Hartford look to be the type of configuration I am after. I'll send you an email. Craig

First time hot tub shopper here who has just started gathering dealer/brand information. We're located in Alpharetta (North Atlanta) and just completed a new deck/patio renovation and are looking to compliment the patio section with a hot tub. I've been reading a lot on this forum, and it seems like there is a great wealth of knowledge here... dealers, techs, and users. My wife and I have always wanted a hot tub, but never had the perfect space for one in the past. Budget wise, we'd like to keep it below $7500 if possible. As far as size, I'd like something that could accomodate at least 5 or 6 people, since we're a family of 4, and it's always nice to have a bit of extra space for parties and such. The patio should have enough space to accomodate an 8'x8' or larger... but I'm sure price will be more of a driver. My preference is for more seating and fewer loungers. I see we have several dealers/brands to choose from in the area and most likely will shop them all. The ones I've picked out so afar are Hot Spring, D1, and Marquis. I guess my realtive order of preference for features is as follows: bang for the buck, reliability, size in that order. I'm looking for any and all recommendations, including specific dealers, models, or even other brands I should be looking at. Any help is appreciated, and thanks in advance. Craig