n1oty
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Posts posted by n1oty
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I want to make hot tub servicers aware of pending legislation on Beacon Hill, Senate Bill 85, which is a bill that licenses pool/spa installers and pool/spa servicers. This bill was first filed last year, but never made it into law. It has been re-introduced again this year with the full backing of the APSP. At the initial meeting in Framingham three weeks ago, I appeared to be the only pure hot tub servicer present. The remaining 99 percent of the audience were pool guys. A committee was formed to guide the formation of this legislation. I managed to get onto the committee. I suggest that any of you that are unaware of this legislation contact me directly. There are many flaws in it as it stands. Contact me directly for more info.
I am not against licensing this trade per se. It would be nice to get rid of the dangerous dolts that are out there. However, this legislation is written and directed by pool people without the serious technical training that some of us have and it shows. If you want a say in your business, you better get active on this. The APSP is pushing this hard this year because, if it does not pass again this year, they cannot re-introduce the bill for two years. I knew they were serious about passage when multiple APSP attorneys showed up at the meeting.
John
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You may wish to bring in a hot tub tech who has the ability to properly ground fault test the tub components with the use of a megohmmeter (most do not know how to do this, although it is simple to perform). Ground faults are rarely dead shorts to ground, which is why most standard meters don't always catch them. The megger, however, can readily track high impedance "shorts" to ground. I get about a dozen or so jobs a year with intermittent issues like this and the megger easily catches it. Other possibilities include a bad GFCI breaker or even a ground fault in the electrician's conductors to the tub.
It is important to understand that ground faults are not static conditions, they are dynamic. The "degree" of the fault can change based on many factors, but it has to worsen to the point that approximately 5 mA of current flows to ground. Anything less that this will not trip the GFCI.
John
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You may wish to re-think this if you live in a community with a mandatory electric code, especially as you may put your homeowners insurance at risk. What you are attempting to do is to field construct a hydromassage bathtub. Since this project is not an immersion type device, it apparently does not fall under Article 422.41 of the NEC. It is also not a medical facility or gymnasium, so it does not fall under the standards pertaining to such facilities. That means that whatever you construct must comply with applicable sections of Article 680 and the general provisions of the electric code.
One key section of the NEC that so many people completely overlook is Articles 110.1, 110.2 and 110.3. Generally speaking, any hydromassage bathtub must comply with UL Standard 1795 and the electrical inspector will want to see evidence that the tub as a whole complies with UL 1795. Most inspectors will want to see either a UL or an ETL certification that the tub as a whole is UL 1795 compliant. Obviously, that won't exist on your tub. The inspector CAN approve a field constructed hydromassage tub based on the use of UL 1795 recognized parts and construction methods, but it is exceptionally rare for an inspector to go out on a limb like that.
John
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1 speed. i switched the wires from pump 1 and 2 and pump 2 ran fine on pump 1's circuit so i know it's in the motor itself.
When i say the cap is on the inside i mean on the side of the motor to the inside of the tub where i can't reach it becuase there's stuff in the way. i'm doing fine with just one pump right now (the working one is for the captians chair/foot well which is pretty much the only one i use) so i'll just wait until it warms up in april and drain the tub. I'm seriously overdue for a water change anyway. (August).
Not necessarily. I believe pump 2 on that model is a single speed. If so, swapping pump 2 for pump 1 will NOT definitively test for a stuck relay, unless you happen to wire up to the stuck relay and cannot shut pump 2 off now. You must ascertain for sure whether BOTH motors are single speeds.
John
ETA: Checked the technical docs and that model is shown with single speed pumps, so your test should be valid.
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The issue with jumping the flow switch circuit is if the flow, in spite of your observations, is not what it should be, then you get heater damage.
The J-355 utilizes a Harwil flow switch that requires in excess of 8 to 9 GPM in order to push the magnet against the reed switch stem. If that is observed through the clear plastic body, there is no way that the heater can be energized without sufficient flow to prevent element damage.
John
John,
Thank you for the advice. I will test the connections of the flow switch and try the procedure you recommended. I just replaced the flow switch about a week ago. Is it possible I could have received a bad flow switch, or when inserting the flow switch into the T, can you make it too tight or doesn't that have an affect on it.
Again, I appreciate everyones feedback and support with this matter. I just can't wait to get the problem solved.
Thank you
Jacuzzi flow switches come with the flow switch already installed in a new clear plastic body. There is no need to unthread your old switch in order to thread in the new switch. You can either damage the switch this way or screw up the orientation of the switch which is critical. It is better to unclamp the hoses, remove the old assembly, replace it with the new assembly and reclamp. A further benefit to changing the entire assembly is that the plastic body can become brittle with age and over-threading a new switch can crack the body. A common rookie mistake is to overtighten and/or disorient the flow direction. There are arrows on the switch as well as the body that indicate proper flow direction.
John
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The issue with jumping the flow switch circuit is if the flow, in spite of your observations, is not what it should be, then you get heater damage.
The J-355 utilizes a Harwil flow switch that requires in excess of 8 to 9 GPM in order to push the magnet against the reed switch stem. If that is observed through the clear plastic body, there is no way that the heater can be energized without sufficient flow to prevent element damage.
John
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Disconnect the pressure switch connector from the circuit board with the tub powered down. Ohm out the two switch wires. There should be NO continuity. Power up the tub with the connector still off of the board. Once you observe the water flow and see the metal stem pressing against the vertical plastic stem in the pressure switch, ohm out the switch. If you have continuity now, the switch is good. Your problem must be with the board, although I personally like to take a circuit board jumper and jumper across the two board terminals for the flow switch to see if that energizes the heat circuit. Finally, if you have continuity (50 ohms or less) both powered and unpowered, the flow switch is bad, but you can test the rest of the heater circuit by fooling the board. To do this, power up the tub with the flow switch disconnected from the board. Power up the tub, wait for good flow through the flow switch, then re-attach the connector to the board
John
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The caps should be readily accessible. Does your meter have a capacitance function. If so, it is easy to check the caps for capacitance. Be sure to short caps out before working on them in case they still have some residual charge built up.
John
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The J-355 does not have a pressure switch. It has a flow switch and it has no adjustment (other than being sure the switch is not installed backwards). Check for proper water flow through the circ pump and heater. Water flow can generally be observed through the clear body of the flow switch.
John
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I thought the IQ2000 was used on 1999 and 2000 model years??? I'm thinking this is the older controller. Either way, I suspect a stuck heater relay.
John
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Master has been bad for a long time and getting worse, which I didn't think was possible.
John
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I have now also heard the same rumor about Jacuzzi (or it's parent) from a source in Rhode Island. A Sundance dealer here in Mass has mentioned the same thing to me. This rumor is either suddenly viral or it has some truth. This will be interesting to watch, if true. I'm not sure that I understood the Thermospas acquisition, other than the possibility of Jacuzzi branching into the direct market. Acquiring D1 makes no sense to me. What would Jacuzzi gain??? D1 is a good product, but I don't see the fit with Jacuzzi.
John
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Have you checked with the folks at Easy Spa Parts??? I do a fair amount of D1 repair work and find them reasonably knowledgeable. They are authorized D1 parts suppliers.
John
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Either a bad relay on the board or a sensor not signalling to pull in a relay. Balboa equipment of that vintage will have a pressure or flow switch. Check that first.
John
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I'm not familiar with the Marquis brand as they are not popular in my area. The Hot Springs is definitely the highest quality tub on your short list. I do service work for two HS dealers here in Mass, so I am very familiar with them. Great tubs. The Premium Leisure is junk in comparison to the HS tubs. Any merchant using the term "luxury" to describe PL's equipment is being outright dishonest. Understand that PL is simply the old Hydro Spa under a different name. I won't go into their bankruptcy shenanigans from a few years ago. That topic was beat to death on many forums a few years ago at the time of the bankruptcy and you can easily search for the info. You can start with the BBB, who still lists PL as buying up the "assets" of the old Hydro Spa. They burned a lot of customers when they got out from under their warranty obligations, yet it is the same cast of characters running the same company.
John
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If you have to pinch off one of the plumbing lines to the flow switch in order to generate sufficient flow through the switch, you still have serious problems, either a flow problem, a switch problem or both. If it is a flow problem and you are now closing the flow switch with an insufficient flow through the heater, you can permanently damage the heater or start a fire. Fix the tub right.
John
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You may or may not have a choice, depending on your jurisdiction. Many jurisdictions do NOT allow any conduit along the ground where it can be damaged. Check with your AHJ.
John
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You are supposed to use Schedule 40 cement, not the regular stuff.
John
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Good luck with quality and support. I finalized a repair for a customer today on a 2 1/2 year old Master Spa with a failed x400825 circ pump, also known as a Laing Thermotech E14 pump. It failed electrically, not due to chemical damage. The problem for the customer is that the pump I installed today is the 4th circ pump this tub has seen since birth. The tech for the dealership replaced the circ pump twice under warranty and the controller once. The customer is now out of warranty by a few months, so we both tried contacting Master Spa to see if they would at least help with the part. I did Master Spa authorized service as an independent for over 20 years, beginning in the pre-Master days when they were called Fort Wayne Pools and ending in 2009. Master basically told me to go pound sand. The customer called and emailed tech support and has never received a reply. I've advised this customer to consider filing a complaint with the Attorney General here in Mass. At least we have fairly strong consumer protections.
Count me with the techs that advise you to avoid this brand.
John
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And shut down the waterfall feature so you force more water through the heater.
John
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The breaker is NOT undersized.
Amp and ground fault tests must be performed.
John
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Great - thats in the owners manual? I'll let the electrician know to order a 60 amp instead of a 50 amp. Speaking with the local electrical store where most of the areas contractors buy their items, he said going from 50 to 60 amp would still use 6 ga wire.
Anyone else have a different answers or had theirs wired differently?
Thanks all -
Scott
There are some circuit board diagrams at the end of the owner's manual, which is where I found this info. Our electrician concurred that all that would be involved in upgrading to 60 amp would be replacing the breaker and moving the jumper on the control board. He added that it would *probably* work to merely move the jumper (leaving the 50 amp breaker in place), since according to the manual the max current draw when set up in 60 amp mode is only 45 amps.
You do not have a very bright electrician. Hot tubs must comply with the 125 percent rule.
John
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The J-330 is a so-so quality tub. It was replaced in the lineup by the J-335 somewhere around 2004 or 2005, so yours has to be at least 7 years old or more. I think the electronics are the weak link with these tubs. Look for the serial number tag which has the date on it.
John
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Time to make a decision and man up. If they blow up another box, it's on them. If you blow up a box, it's on you.
John
Massachusetts Hot Tub Servicers
in Portable Hot Tubs & Spas
Posted
I expect that hot tub owners will be shocked at the service rates if this bill passes in its current form. The rates around here are already high. The discussion thus far has revolved around patterning this after the CT structure, which is code for going after anyone who is unlicensed. The bill actually characterizes unlicensed service as a misdemeanor, so it will be a crime, albeit one with a fine and not jail time.
The part that I struggle with the most is the requirement to have the APSP training or "equivalent" before sitting for the state exam, yet they don't want to accept my professional training as equivalent. I spent time at the US Military Academy back in the 70's studying engineering. I did not stay to graduate, but was well along towards my degree. Furthermore, I have my certifications and licensing from a legitimate appliance and refrigeration school, training that encompassed over a year of full time appliance and refrigeration training. I have my federally required 40 CFR Part 82 licensing for handling refrigerants. The appliance training alone encompassed all phases of troubleshooting electrical/electronic controls of various pieces of equipment, along with full training in the repair of gas appliances. When I mention this background, let alone being in the hot tub repair business since 1984, they still insist that I should have some of their pool courses and their 3 1/2 day hot tub servicers course before sitting for the state exam. Really?? I'll bet I've forgotten more about electronic controls than their instructions will ever know. I'd be willing to bet that anyone who attended any technical school full time for more than a year will have more knowledge than someone taking a 3.5 day APSP course.
This lack of acceptance as to what would constitute "equivalent" training, and what I consider to be far superior training, leads me to believe that this is more a ploy to make money selling courses/training materials/memberships and to drive out competition. I am certainly not giving up what I have, so I will do whatever it takes to meet the adopted licensing requirements. I have a very lucrative business here that includes servicing equipment for some of the local professional sports teams. In addition, my daughter plans on ultimately taking over the business when I retire and she completes her BSEE (although she is considering going on for her MSEE). I guess I'll just have to raise the rates to compensate for wasted time and licensing costs. Those APSP courses and memberships are VERY expensive.
John