n1oty
-
Posts
462 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by n1oty
-
-
The really good technician's do NOT accept such low numbers from manufacturers. Any work that I do for brands that pay so little, I contract directly with the customer for payment of the entire invoice on the spot and let the customer get reimbursed by the manufacturer. Strong is not the only brand in this industry with a pathetic warranty reimbursement for techs. I routinely get called twice a year by tech support at Premium Leisure (the old Hydro Spas) asking if I'll service their tubs. My answer is always no, unless the customer wants to call me direct and contract specifically with me on my terms. This policy has proved very lucrative for me.
Oh, and not all tech's are simply parts changers. Some of us are highly skilled, trained and experienced with electronic repair.
John
Why in the world would a repairman agree to to business with Strong if he would only get paid $80 for a job that he would normally charge $300+ for?
Also, I would think to some extent, the job of Spa repairing (at least of the electronic components) has gone the way of most other electronic repairs...even of high end equipment, they are probably not doing much true, high skill repairs anymore...just remove and replace the broken component, rather than actually fix it.
-
I've been in the repair side of this business since 1984 when my father and I had an appliance/refrigeration repair shop and Jacuzzi Whirlpool Bath walked through our door seeking competent service in the eastern Massachusetts area. They were having trouble with their prior servicer's inability to properly and promptly diagnose electrical issues on their most recent hot tubs, like the Avanza, which featured multiple DC coil relays, bridge rectifiers and reed switches for on/off control of functions.
Back in the 80's, the larger bath and hot tub manufacturers made generally more robust products and paid a bit better in order to get service from technician's who actually had formal schooling in electrical/electronic troubleshooting.
The mid-90's brought a sea change to the bath and hot tub industry with a number of start up manufacturers developing the low end section of this business. With the low end, low cost tubs came the need from manufacturers and dealers to trim warranty costs. That included selecting technicians based on hourly rate, not necessarily on formal training, experience and skill. We even have one pool/spa dealer in Rhode Island who advertises in the Providence Journal every spring for a hot tub tech. His ad always specifies "No Experience Necessary, We Will Train".
I have actually carved out a lucrative niche for myself in this current environment by being heavily skilled and formally trained in electrical/electronic matters. The general skill level in this trade has deteriorated so badly over the past 20 years that long term pro's with a savvy skill set make very good money repairing the problems created by incompetent servicers. I also make very good money consulting with insurance firms on home losses due to electrician or technician ineptitude. Ineptitude abounds, believe me. Apollo217, who has posted previously in this thread, is one of many local dealers that call on me when needed and can attest to the bizarre things that happen when homeowners, electricians or "techs" do strange, non-code compliant things, use improper parts or use improper materials.
So much for industry background, let's get back to the case at hand. Other experienced tech's have pointed out in this thread (and others) how they handle the initial interaction with the customer. I make it very plain that the customer pays all charges not covered by the manufacturer. In some cases, I will not contract directly with the manufacturer and I inform the customer they must pay me when I come out and they will have to chase the manufacturer.
Finally, I refer you back to Strong Spa's own warranty:
http://www.strongspas.com/assets/files/strong_warranty.pdf
Misuse or failure to operate the equipment according to the instructions in the manual is specifically excluded from any coverage. If something was left turned on that should have been turned off before being covered would be misuse. Even if Strong decided to cover this "repair", their warranty does NOT cover travel and/or service call charges. It only covers a maximum of $80 for labor time.
Locally, I get $150 for a service call, which includes the first half hour of on-site diagnostic time. I get $110 per hour after that. If I had two hours on your tub and discerned a non-warrantable condition, you'd have my bill for $315. At best, Strong might cover $80 of that.
John
Have a bit of a problem with 2 of your comments:
"/1/ Reading arf's comments about feeling no obligation to pay the repairman is typical of consumer attitude, which is why it is the repairman's responsibility to make perfectly clear to the consumer what warranty does and does not cover.
/2/ The only way the repairman is going to get $220 out of Strong is to claim on an invoice to have repaired a significant leak - commit a fraudulent act."
/1/ since my contractual relationship is with Strong, I'm not necessarily opposed to paying Strong, or possibly even the repair man if they request it
/2/ I don't know how you (or me) could possibly know for certain what type of contract or obiligation is between Strong and Mr. Repairman. As Strong is a large company, and I live in a major metro area, it would seem likely they had some sort of arrangement with a repair man here, as opposed to just trying to find someone when I called a month ago. Though I have zero experience with this industry, I've never before heard of a repairman who didn't have a set minimum truck or trip charge. UNlike a repairman who is servicing a product his store sells, and has no choice, why in the world a repairman would agree to a job (or even doing any business for Strong) without a minimum payment is just beyond me. I can't imagine all repairmen are that stupid?
-
I had a similar situation three years ago, but while doing service for Master Spas. In this case, it was leaking and obviously chemical damage.........very bad chemical damage. Being the ultra-honest sort, I informed the customer that this fell outside the terms of warranty, that the factory probably wouldn't pay, but that I would at least call tech support at Master to see what they wanted to do. After all, it was a warranty between Master and their customer. The dealer, after selling a tub to a guy on Cape Cod, refused to travel that distance to service the tub.
Tech support authorized repair of the tub on their dime. I repaired the tub, submitted the invoice to Master Spas and they reneged. Thank God I always inform customers that they are responsible for any part of the bill NOT paid by the manufacturer. The customer wasn't happy, but understood my position and paid. I have continued to service this guy's tub for spring recommissioning and fall winterization ever since (the dealer still won't travel to service this guy and Master doesn't care).
I hope Strong doesn't pull on you and your tech what Master pulled in my situation. Good luck.
John
-
Be careful. If your current board has a load neutral connection, you'll be good to go with the standard Balboa board of that number. If your current board does NOT utilize a load neutral, you are out of luck. You'll have to change your entire control package.
John
-
Bad circuit board and/or bad topside are the most likely culprits. It's stuck on 988 because it is lighting up all the LED segments as part of the power-on-self-test. It is not progressing past this point in the boot up sequence. I always plug a known good topside in and repower for a test.
John
-
It sounds to me like the firmware chip got hosed. As such, a board rebuild will not help you. Powering down for awhile, then repowering might. Good luck.
John
-
If your board is wired with a neutral, you'll be able to retrofit a standard Balboa circuit board of the same type and firmware. If this is a 240 volt only Keys board, they were proprietary to Keys from Balboa. Balboa stopped making them when Keys went belly up. You may also get lucky finding someone with an NOS board on the shelf, but not likely.
John
-
Plus, if the outside breaker is your GFCI (not sure if it is), you do not want to bypass that. Better to wait until you get a replacement. Also, this would be a good time to remove the defective breaker and check for melting or charring, both in the panel and the base of the breaker. If there are signs of warping, melting or charring, replace the outside box as well as the breaker.
John
-
Test the amp draw at the breaker with a clamp-on ampmeter. A 50 amp tub should draw 40 amps or less with everything running, including the heat. If the breaker trips with less than 50 amps, then the breaker is bad. If you are drawing over 50 amps, you'll have to check individual tub circuits.
John
-
In addition to the good info from Dr Spa, check the manual and/or inside the control box to see if the tub manufacturer specifies a minimum conductor temperature rating. 90 Centigrade ratings are fairly common these days and I have seen the occasional requirement for 105 C. If the manufacturer specifies a minimum temperature rating, the ENTIRE run must meet or exceed that specification.
John
-
If you are willing to pay for quality, drop the D1 at home series and the Hot Spot from consideration. In the case of D1, the at home series is significantly cheapened compared to the Reflection and Bay series tubs. The same is true of the Hot Spot. It can't compare to the Pulse. The Pulse has much better electronics, etc.
John
-
Matt,
I agree with Roger in this case. Time and time again, we have seen tub manufacturers specifically make a line of tubs engineered to meet lower price points for sale through big box merchants, warehouse stores, etc. I recall many manufacturers over the years come out with cheapened product specifically geared to that market segment. Some examples:
Fort Wayne Pools (now Master Spas)- Had a line of significantly cheapened tubs sold through the now defunct Home Quarters back in the early to mid 1990's. This is the earliest known example that I know of with deliberately cheapened tubs through a mass merchant.
Jacuzzi Whirlpool Bath- Just about every tech has serviced the Jacuzzi "Echo Series" hot tubs sold through Home Depot in the late 90's and into the early 2000's. These tubs were really cheapened dramatically as compared to the standard lines sold through dealers in a move coldly calculated to get suckers to buy based solely on the reputation of the Jacuzzi name.
Savannah Spas- A creation of Maax Spas that pushed Jacuzzi out of Home Depot. I'd even suggest that the build quality was better than the Echo Series Jacuzzi tubs, but certainly below the quality of their regular tubs.
I'm sure there are other examples, but these examples show that time in the business is not a guarantee of quality or anything else. It seems like all the manufacturers are willing to prostitute themselves in order to play in the low end segment.
John
-
In the gray, two-breaker panel that should have come with your tub.
John
-
I wouldn't use it. Your inspector is retarded.
-
Power problem from the 20 amp breaker or a bad heater relay board.
John
-
Not necessarily. You could still have something like a ground faulted heater. Removing the 0.3 amp fuse disables all board functionality, so none of the relays are pulling in. Therefore, the loads are not exposed to line voltage. Check all of the loads with a megger.
John
-
Be careful. The conduit fill percentage is altered for hot tubs and I doubt that 3/4 inch will make the grade.
John
-
I feel your pain. I just had a roofing contractor in this week to put a new roof on my house. The city permit fee alone was $700, but I have the paperwork which lets me formally update my home owners insurance to reflect the new roof (they do track that). Meanwhile, a friend up the street re-roofed without a permit and is having trouble getting his insurance company to reflect the new roof on his policy.
I had no problem with the permitting process or its aftermath (other than the exorbitant cost). Frankly, the operation that you just described sounds more like keystone cops than professional building inspectors. I think California must be in its own bizarre world.
Any headway with your electrician???
John
-
I'm glad this worked out. I've worked on a LOT of the IQ2020 (Hot Springs) and Advent (Caldera) controllers that have this heater relay board. In the twelve years that this controller has been on the market (2001 for HS and 2002 for Caldera), you are only the second instance that I know of with a failed board out of the box. It is that rare.
John
-
Your latest testing would indicate that it is most likely relay problems, but as Spokanespas said, someone really needs to check out the wiring in the back of the motor as well, since problems there can mimic this issue. I'm leaning AGAINST the probability of motor wiring issues though since this problem occurred with your original motor as well.
John
-
The talk of a stuck relay is just speculative at this point. Someone needs to actually determine with a meter if this is so. Also, if a relay is stuck, I would expect that the high speed would be running 24/7, and you are not reporting this. Your problem could also be a severe voltage drop, wrong HP motor or another defective motor.
John
-
Oh, and I just connected the dots are realized you are the OP in the "60 amp" posting. Already, your "electrician" is making me nervous.
John
-
My problem with getting a permit is not the cost or the inconvenience, but the fact that a lot of their stipulations are just plain stupid. For example, I would need to have both my backyard gates open outwards instead of inwards (in case a wayward child stumbles into my yard through this gate and drowns himself in the spa). My gate doors face the "wrong" way and I may need to change this if I pull a permit. The spa cannot be a certain distance from the fence in case a child hurls himself over the fence and drowns in my spa. This last provision is especially retarded since I am compelled by the permit to have a cover with a latch! I also need to have an unbroken fence all around the perimeter of at least 5 feet (I think I can comply with this one). I need to have an alarm installed over the French doors that lead into the yard in case a child goes through these doors and drowns himself in my spa. I was told by the electrician that they have one portable alarm that they simply move from job to job to comply with this provision. There may be other required imbecilities that I'm not even aware of at this time but would surely find out to my great detriment. I have no problem complying with reasonable requests but this stuff does not merit my compliance. I have hired a team that does tons of spas, are licensed for electricity and will do the job without a permit.
Sorry to hear about that. Your area apparently has adopted many additional regulations beyond the national model code. If you actually do install without the permit or permits, be especially careful about who you hire to do the work. I agree with Dr Spa and have observed more screwed up electrical installations from electricians than anyone else.
John
-
One of the main points about Article 110.3 of the NEC is the REQUIREMENT to wire and fuse in accordance with the directions supplied by the equipment manufacturer. In this case, Watkins requires separate 20 and 30 amp circuits be delivered to the tub, as designed by their engineers. You do not necessarily have to use their box and breakers, but you must supply one separate 20 amp GFCI protected circuit and one separate 30 amp circuit. In addition, you cannot use 60C rated conductors and the load neutral MUST be connected to the designated GFCI. Neither you or the electrician can simply connect the tub to power however you want. Watkins wants a 50 amp breaker feeding the sub-panel with the two GFCI breakers. It's really not that difficult to follow Watkins directions.
John
Sovereign Circa 2000 Instantly Trips Breaker
in Portable Hot Tubs & Spas
Posted
A 20 and a 50 amp breaker???
John