n1oty
-
Posts
462 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by n1oty
-
-
Hi, I am new to this forum and was hoping someone could help me out. I just bought a used Caldera Spa Kauai. I had an electrician hook it up, and it fired up on the first try. The jets turned on and I set the temp to 104. After about 10 mins, the spa shut off and started blinking 4 dashed lines. The manual indicated that this means there is a high limit sensor issue and to turn off power and restart after 30 seconds. I did this and the dashing lines came back on and the jets would no longer work. I then turned off power and disconnected the heater at the circuit board. Turned the spa back on and the jets were running and the water was circulating. I then reconnected the heater and the TEMP indicator began to flash. I adjusted the pressure switch and the heater kicked on and the water appeared to be cirulating. Everything seemed to be ok, but then the spa shut off again after about 10 mins and the 4 flashing lines showed up again indicating a high limit sensor issue. I am lost at this point. Could the heater be bad or the high limit switch? Any help is appreciated.
The watchdog error on this tub is usually a result of inadequate water flow through the heater circuit. It needs about 10 to 12 GPM. If it ran fine with the heater disconnected, I doubt you have a bad sensor.
John
-
i think you have that backwards n1oty. the j1000 has been virtually trouble free. 06-09 boards had bad capacitors from the supplier in them, jacuzzi has since fixed that problem.
I will mention that warranties are non-transferable.
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Jacuzzi does not have a J-1000 here in the US. Maybe this is something they sell outside the US. And I stand by my statement. We are seeing significantly higher failure rates of boards from the higher tier tubs for model years 2010 and 2011. Between the dealer's in-house techs and myself, we have changed out over 30 boards out of 60-odd high tier tubs sold in this time frame. It may be a fluke and we are not sure what the issue is, but it has been happening. In a couple of cases, replacement boards have failed also.
John
-
It sounds like you have the older Balboa controller that Caldera used up until 2001. The fuse location is dependent on tub model and board, but it is either on the board or in a separate fuse holder mounted within the box. It should be plain as day. My question is, why do you have to replace a fuse that you haven't even found yet?? You don't even know if it is bad.
John
-
I've run into this one a dozen or so times the last 15-20 years. It always ends the same (bad electrical run)
Here's a quick check if it's "low voltage," vs "improper electrical run"
Check the voltage at the spa with the heater off, main pump off, just the circ pump running. You'll probably be hovering around 120 volts with a small load.
Then, turn the heat up, until the heater is energized. Any voltage drop more than 6 volts, you're asking for trouble. If you're going down to 103 with the pump energized, yet are around 120 with little load, it's a problem with the electrical run.
Either the wire is undersized, there is a poor connection, or the breaker has an issue.
It's very simple to troubleshoot. As long as the wire is not undersized for the length of the run, typically a very inexpensive, easy fix.
+1 on this info and I would add a max'd out house panel as another possibility. For instance, a 100 amp house panel and a lot of simultaneous loads. Resistive loads, such as heaters, react OK to severe voltage drops by simply folding back output. Inductive loads, such as motors, react poorly to severe voltage drops. The low voltage indicated in the original post is barely sufficient to get a jet motor going. The voltage may even vary over time, so it is entirely possible that the voltage is dropping below the 103 volts indicated. That is probably when the motor fails to start.
I'll add this. You better fix your power problem to the tub before you do some serious damage.
John
-
The "watchdog" error simply means that the electronics have detected a dangerous condition and shut down. This can be due to a LOT of different problems, but the most common and cheapest is a bad temp sensor. It's cheap enough that it is well worth simply replacing. And next time, don't hire that boob you had the first time. He is beyond ignorant.
John
Thanks John. I called Sundance and they gave me a price of $40.00 for a temp sensor. He said if was in the least bit handy I could put it in myself and save some money. Ill give it a shot.
Oh, and while I'm at it, I might as well explain watchdog errors a bit further. 90 percent of the time it is simply a bad temp sensor. Technically, there are two sensors in the tub, the temp sensor and the hi-limit sensor, but the hi-limit rarely fails on the Sundance. In the field, I determine which sensor is bad by ohm'ing out both sensors and comparing the resistance value to the water temperature. The failed sensor is usually dramatically lower than the other sensor, assuming good water flow through the heater.
The other 10 percent of watchdog errors can be a hodge-podge such as reduced water flow through the heater, a bad board and a bad hi-limit.
John
-
The "watchdog" error simply means that the electronics have detected a dangerous condition and shut down. This can be due to a LOT of different problems, but the most common and cheapest is a bad temp sensor. It's cheap enough that it is well worth simply replacing. And next time, don't hire that boob you had the first time. He is beyond ignorant.
John
Thanks John. I called Sundance and they gave me a price of $40.00 for a temp sensor. He said if was in the least bit handy I could put it in myself and save some money. Ill give it a shot.
Only a couple of potential "gotcha's" with the temp sensor. First, although I have my tricks for changing sensors while the tub is full, I recommend that newbs at least drain the tub below the level of the sensor. Second, be very careful that you correctly orient the box end connectors into the sensor harness. Obviously, make sure the power is off.
You can usually re-use the sensor gasket or you can simply purchase a new one, your choice. In either event, I suggest lubricating the gasket with silicone lubricant (not sealant). Hand thread the sensor and give it just enough of a turn with the wrench to BARELY compress the gasket. Refill the tub and check for any leakage around the gasket. I doubt you'll have to snug it any further. If you do have a slight leak, tighten the sensor no more than a quarter turn and re-check for leaks. Overtightening will cause the gasket to bulge and lose seal.
John
-
The "watchdog" error simply means that the electronics have detected a dangerous condition and shut down. This can be due to a LOT of different problems, but the most common and cheapest is a bad temp sensor. It's cheap enough that it is well worth simply replacing. And next time, don't hire that boob you had the first time. He is beyond ignorant.
John
-
$780 in Texas for 120 feet of 6/3 + ground, 50 amp breakers, 50 amp GFCI. Most of the cable was run in the attic... about 20 feet had to be buried as it exited the attic on the far side of the house. GFCI was mounted on exterior wall about half-way through the wiring run. All to code.
Used Angie's List to find the electrician... generally pretty good info with recommendations (or not) along with some prices paid.
To code, huh??? What was the temperature rating of the installed conductors and what is the hottest temperature that your attic gets to??
John
The guy from Texas has a name. "To code" means the electrician was licensed/certified by the state and the city building inspector passed the install. End of story.
.
Really?? What specifically was used for conductors?? THHN/THWN-2?? One of the flavors of NM, such as NM-B??
John
-
I forgot to mention that your 20 foot length of flex is a violation of Article 680.42 of the NEC.
John
agreed - I believe only 6 ft of water tight flex is allowed.
Dave
This depends on the code version that this person's tub falls under. 2008 and earlier versions of the NEC were strict with the 6 foot rule. The 2011 code loosened the restriction a bit. It now allows for a maximum of 6 feet outside the cabinet plus the minimum amount necessary inside the cabinet to make it to the box. Somehow, I doubt he has a 14 foot wide hot tub. I could be wrong though!!
John
-
$780 in Texas for 120 feet of 6/3 + ground, 50 amp breakers, 50 amp GFCI. Most of the cable was run in the attic... about 20 feet had to be buried as it exited the attic on the far side of the house. GFCI was mounted on exterior wall about half-way through the wiring run. All to code.
Used Angie's List to find the electrician... generally pretty good info with recommendations (or not) along with some prices paid.
To code, huh??? What was the temperature rating of the installed conductors and what is the hottest temperature that your attic gets to??
John
I just had an install done - cost $1200. 30' run to outside of house, then another 20' flex conduit to the tub. Also included adding a new outside outlet. Had another estimate of $1,350 for just the tub run. Tub dealer told me to expect around $1,000. Your estimate seems high. I live on Long Island, so prices tend to be higher than other areas.
I forgot to mention that your 20 foot length of flex is a violation of Article 680.42 of the NEC.
John
-
$780 in Texas for 120 feet of 6/3 + ground, 50 amp breakers, 50 amp GFCI. Most of the cable was run in the attic... about 20 feet had to be buried as it exited the attic on the far side of the house. GFCI was mounted on exterior wall about half-way through the wiring run. All to code.
Used Angie's List to find the electrician... generally pretty good info with recommendations (or not) along with some prices paid.
To code, huh??? What was the temperature rating of the installed conductors and what is the hottest temperature that your attic gets to??
John
I just had an install done - cost $1200. 30' run to outside of house, then another 20' flex conduit to the tub. Also included adding a new outside outlet. Had another estimate of $1,350 for just the tub run. Tub dealer told me to expect around $1,000. Your estimate seems high. I live on Long Island, so prices tend to be higher than other areas.
Look, all of these "estimates" are not worth the paper they are printed on unless they specify EXACTLY the size, length and conductor type that the electrician plans to install. I have had 5 forensic examinations that I have performed in the past few months that involved hot tub failures caused by low bid electrician screw-ups, one of which involved the loss of the house due to fire. I asked the guy in Texas, who has stated he has #6 AWG conductors running through his attic, to inform us what the temperature rating of his #6 is. We haven't heard from him as yet, but if it is rated 60 C or 75 C, he may be screwed. It is reasonably safe to assume that his attic gets fairly hot in the summer, even if it is well ventilated. Any temperature above 86 Fahrenheit results in a de-rating of the ampacity of the conductors. The amount of the de-rating is dependent on the highest ambient temperature encountered, with very warm attics frequently requiring a halving of the conductors ampacity. It does you no good to have the low bidder install something like #6 NM-B with a 55 amp ampacity at 86F for your 50 amp tub, then have the attic lower the maximum ampacity of the conductors to 30 amps due to de-rating. Your 50 amp breaker will not trip in this instance, yet your conductors in the attic are likely to catch fire. For anyone who cares to read up on the information that I am talking about, I refer to Article 310 of the NEC.
John
-
I recently got a 01 Coast Spa, w/ Gecko control pack. It had a no heat problem, when everything else was working fine. After a little research I found out the 3 flashing dots on the display was a trouble code, how to test power to the heater element, and how the pressure switch relates to the heater. The heater element tested zero voltage between the 2 posts, so no power to the element was found. I could also see that the pressure switch was bad because it had a slight weeping leak, and it was all rusted out around the edge due to the leak. After learning a bad switch is also very common for no heat issues, I replaced and it works fine. I also called a Coast dealer/service center and they were helpful too.
Thanks for the responses. I just tested the voltage between the two heater element posts and got 0 volts. However, if I the indivuals post and to ground it was getting the correct voltage. I think I'm just going to replace the entire heater element and sensors as it seems to be not that much more money to do so. Hopefully, that will be the root cause...
That won't work. 0 volts across the cold pins does not mean the element is bad.
John
-
Thanks. Thats what I thought. Going to visit some local dealers. Some brands that they carry: Sundance, Baja, and Artesian. Any thoughts on these ?
Baha is an unknown in my area, so I cannot offer advice on it. The Sundance's are good. I think they've slipped a lit bit in the past couple of years, but very good anyway. Artesian is good, but you better make sure the dealer will solidly support you. Tech support from them can be thin.
John
-
$780 in Texas for 120 feet of 6/3 + ground, 50 amp breakers, 50 amp GFCI. Most of the cable was run in the attic... about 20 feet had to be buried as it exited the attic on the far side of the house. GFCI was mounted on exterior wall about half-way through the wiring run. All to code.
Used Angie's List to find the electrician... generally pretty good info with recommendations (or not) along with some prices paid.
To code, huh??? What was the temperature rating of the installed conductors and what is the hottest temperature that your attic gets to??
John
-
Vita is bankrupt. I know for a fact that Maax bought their jetted bath division and there is anecdotal evidence that Maax may have purchased the hot tub division as well.
John
-
The boards in 2010 and 2011 model years are having much higher failure rates. 2009 and earlier are rock solid.
John
-
Hi
I am new to the forum I have been surfing it for a while. I am wanting to buy a spa and have considered several makes Hotsprings Marquis and more recently Vita in particular the Chateau L700 series model. it seems the features and build quality are the same or similar to me although the insulation method in the vita did not appear as robust as others I wondered what you guys thought of Vita, I live in the UK and there is not as much feedback on them as some of the other makes. Thanks in advance
The last I heard, Vita went belly up. I have information that indicates Maax took over the Vita Baths division, which makes jetted bathtubs. I do not know whether Maax or anyone else bought up the spa division. If they have, then it will simply be a re-branded Maax.
John
-
Hello.
I have a 20 year old (1991) Freedom Spas (Master Spas I think) Concorde that I was able to resurrect. I am now having some problems and am having trouble finding a schematic for the controller. I replaced the pump/heater/ozonator. The controller is a
Brett Aqualine
Model EM-703
Catalog No 26-7366TWX-C-U-FT
It looks like somebody may have modified the controller as the thermostat is not very accurate and the tub can heat up well past 104 F . This has not been a problem. The pump would also not start when it should and just hum. Rotating the shaft a little and trying again or switching to high speed then low speed would usually get the pump going. Again this has not been a problem.
The problem that keeps us out of the tub now is that the pump tries to run on high and low speed at the same time. Also one relay coil is receiving 245 volts and another is closer to 90 volts.
Anyway I would love to keep the tub (as opposed to buying a new one) and limp along a little longer. If I can't get it going I'm afraid all the time and money I have sunk in it will be sunk. My hope is to obtain a schematic for the controller to trace the circuits and get this antique (with all 8 jets) functional once more.
Thanks for anything you can do.
Phil
The old Brett Aqualine controllers were quite robust, but it usually takes decent tech skills to service. Wannabe techs need not apply. Schematics may be available from Allied Innovations. Google them and give them a call. It sounds like your motor needs to be replaced anyway. The thermostat going over-temp is common with that style as they age. Replacement thermostats are readily available. If your pack used a CSC Sequencing Switch, a lot of these are no longer manufactured. If you don't have a Sequencer, everything else you may need should be available.
John
-
Thanks for the info. I figured that was the case. Ordered new pump online for 160.00. Everyone else wanted over 200.00 or more. Local places wanted 260.00 plus tax. Waiting for that to come in now to start working on the pool pump and little pressure. Next post will be there until I get the circ pump installed.
Make sure that you at least order from a reputable online source. There are a lot of cheap, Chinese-made knock-off's floating around now. I had a buddy in the business just get stung for two Waterway Exec 56 knockoffs. The pump connections didn't fit (metric) and he could not use the motor due to the difference in all the dimensions.
John
-
Ah! not experienced with HS but i'm impressed that they haven't used a pressure switch since the 80's. What spa control system did/do they use or is it an in house controller?
HS controls have always been proprietary to them as far back as I've worked on them (1984). Many of their older controllers had two high limits, one sensing tub temperature and the other sensing heater manifold temperature. In no-flow or low-flow conditions, it was the heater manifold hi-limit that would pop.
John
-
Ah! not experienced with HS but i'm impressed that they haven't used a pressure switch since the 80's. What spa control system did/do they use or is it an in house controller?
HS since way back in the late 70's has used a small circulation pump which sucks spa water past a mechanical thermostat, then pushes water thru the heater then back into the spa in a system technically separate from the jet pump. A mechanical high limit switch in the heater was the safeguard in the system and in the event water did not move thru the heater canister, it would trip and cut power to the heater system. Lots of years later, the system is similar, still separate from the jet pumps but with new style 24 hr run pumps and heaters and controls. There were a few years when a flow switch was used (95-96) but it was there to protect the cartridge style heater in a plastic heater housing. The replacement heater for the No-Fault 6000 actually had a pressure switch built into it but it wasn't servicable and that design didn't last very long. Now everything uses sensors and printed circuit boards to switch things on and off. It has been a long and interesting evolution for those of us old enough to watch.
Amen. Sometimes the flow was so difficult to detect that we simply listened for the sound of water starting to boil in the heater housing.
John
-
wow 3 hot springs in 25 years and no problems!!! Now that is a a miracle... Between the heater relay board on anything older than a couple years, and the spa side control heads breaking you should have had at least 10 issues in 25 years...
I service the Hot springs out here from a dealer that went bankrupt and i do a steady business fixing them.
The heater relay boards came into existence starting with the 2001 model year. Prior to that, separate relays were used that were not very problematic. For that matter, the heater relay board in the IQ2020 controller is not problematic on 115 Volt tubs. I can easily envision someone with a HS tub from the 80's and 90's not having any problems, if they did their chemistry properly.
John
-
Be sure that you compare apples to apples when evaluating quotes from electricians. Any electrician who gives a quote without reading the installation instructions is not likely to properly quote and perform the job. Various tubs require different conductors and/or wiring methods. Many electricians even low-ball their bids in order to obtain the job and then proceed to use sub-standard material, creating a hazardous condition. And don't expect the electrical inspector's to catch any shortcuts, as most of them are not fluent with Article 680 of the NEC. You really want to ensure that you use an electrician who is very familiar with hot tubs and their unique code requirements. Generally speaking, that usually means getting a referral from your hot tub dealer.
John
-
Nearly all of the HS tubs from the 80's and early 90's did not have any flow or pressure switches. Dan the Spa Man's advice is spot on.
John
Grounding Spa To Concrete Patio
in Portable Hot Tubs & Spas
Posted
I haven't had the opportunity to delve further into this particular piece of information since I received it a couple of weeks ago, but apparently the NFPA has relented somewhat on the equipotential bonding requirements for hot tubs. Whether your inspector will relent is another story.
http://aquamagazine.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid=2033&zoneid=17
It should be the top article.
John