Chas

Which doesn't matter if you have a small circ pump running 24/7 anyway. And you get other benefits from that pump, so the net is a savings. In a spa which uses the jet pump on low speed intermitantly, there would be a savings if the heater worked faster - but oops, then you have to run on high speed for a couple of filter cycles each day to make up for the missing constant filtration. Darn. Then, of course, there's the problem of in-rush current: some motors will consume more power at start up than they will to run for another - what, half hour? I don't know. It's been a long day. But some systems have the motor starting randomly as needed, and that can eat up power. Others heat at set times, so the pump starts once, gets the tub back to temp, and then sits idle till the next scheduled time. Too many variables.

How does that figure? There is no flue, no lost heat - the heaters may give off a very small amount of heat that doesn't get into the water, but they are pretty close to 100% efficient, and I don't understand how that would change by changing the voltage.

I would make sure the sprinklers are adjusted to not hit the tub. You will soon see a pattern from the water. The good news is that the grass around the tub may be able to get by with less water due to the shade. Oviously, your mileage may vary on that part...

I think there is no best design. There are systems which work slightly better than others, but there are trade-offs and compromises in all of them.

It may very well last another 11 years. I have sold them as old as 16 years - to my next door neighbor - and it is still bubbling along. We put all new seals and gaskets in the jet pump, and a new circ pump before delivery - come to think of it, I think it had a good (newer) circ pump already. That was about 9 years ago. Since then he has put in a heater. He bought the part, I sent my son over to help him install it. His net cost has been less than some folks have paid for electricity. He is past due for a cover - this will be his second one in nine years - he has a cheap canopy over the tub which has helped his first cover go the nine years. Most don't go that long in sun.

Easy guys - we're friendly board here.... I have a hard and fast rule about discussing FF vs. TP and it's this: There are no hard and fast rules. The Arctic system may very well last two weeks at -20 but look at it, it has close to four inches on the inside of the cabinet, full foam up around the lip of the spa, and I bet it's got close to 6" at the base. That, my friends, is Full Foam. Yes, they have left a gap for the plumbing, and yes, the motors are in that gap. That means that the motors will stay warm. But - getting back to the 'hard and fast' bit, not all TP spas have that much foam. Many of them have FAR less foam, so when the power dies, the heat loss is much faster. It, as was said above, is common sense that a tub with very little insulation will cool faster when the power is off. As to the heat bleeding or transfering or whatever, again, there are no hard and fast rules. Some tubs have designs which allow the tub to keep the motor compartment safely warm in a power outage even though there is some insulation between the motor compartment and the spa shell - HotSpring is one of those - while others purposely leave off any and all insulation on the spa shell right in the motor area. Caldera is one of those. But those two makers are lumped into the FF camp - so again I say - Be nice. And allow for the fact that not all FF tubs are created equal, and not all TP tubs are created equal. BTW - I would politely ask that people refrain from making disparaging remarks about a spa that somebody just plunked down money on. They have worked through a tough process, and taken the big step. If you have a personal story to tell (I had one and it was nothing but trouble, or I had one and it was great) that's fine, but otherwise where is the value in telling them that 'you chose the worst...' OK?

It is unique.

Other than sales rhetoric, I don't know where that idea comes from. I know dealers who sell FF tubs of various brands in some of the coldest parts of this country, and in other icy countries around the globe. When the power goes down, the things stay warm as long or longer than TP. The heat bleeds into the motor compartment on the ones I am most familiar with - through areas around the light lens and by virtue of the fact that the wall between the motor compartment and spa is not usually as thick as the rest of the tub. This latter point will vary greatly from maker to maker. Again, on the ones I handle, the sides, bottom and top of the motor compartment are all insulated well. But the tubs I sell also have an optional insulation kit for the equipment compartment door, and I have spoken to dealers in cold climates who put them on every spa without a thought. Here in Southern Cal, I have only seen these add-ons in the books. If the power is going to be off for a week or more, the tub can be drained, or a very samll generator could power a simple worklight in the motor compartment. I guess I am just not ready to accept that FF could be as popular as it is, sold around the globe the way it is, and be a consistant source of trouble in cases of frozen tubs. I realize that there are going to be special cases where no tub could survive, and if that happens to you, it is a major deal.

Notice that the groups have been 'realigned,' so you no longer automatically are listed as 'Moderator' simply by attaining a preset number of posts. So - Stevie is not listed as a Moderator anymore. No offense to any of you who have given freely of your time and posted a lot. We appreciate it. But it seems to make more sense to only call the moderators by that name.

It is very hard to guess where '1/4' of a spa's volume would be. I have used 3" as about 25% when telling folks how to mix stuff. That means that the very top 3" is about 25% of the volume of the water. If I wanted to drain my spa, I would drain it. Once I have refilled it, I would check for airlock and deal with it. If it became a problem every time I drained, I would either find an easy way to bleed the pumps, or I would find the lowest level I could drain to and stop there. But then I would drain more often, knowing that I am not getting as much water out as I would like, while at the same time realizing that if all we are talking about is 6" in the bottom of the footwell it's not really much water. I suppose if you wanted to you could drain down to whatever point the dealer shows you, and then run the garden hose in as you drain water out - to sort of dilute the remaining water.

Not to take sides here, rather to focus on the concrete - I have always added steel one way or another. I can't say that one method has proven itself better than the other in my limited experience, but I have used rebar and welded wire mesh. The mesh I have used is usually 6" square stuff. My question is this: when using rebar, is there a real reason to put a complete grid? Or is it sufficient to run around the perimeter? If I put in a slab, it is usually just about 8' square or pretty close to it, and I put a couple inches of sand down first, form with 2x6, and drop in the ww mesh. From time to time, I have used rebar - I overlap the joints, bend the corners and make a loop about a foot in from the outside edge all the way 'round. Which would you use and why?

Yes, Dr. Spa and Chas are moderators here. We are both honored at the trust shown by Big Fish, and we plan to do our best. And yes, James is still a member and welcome to post. Like everyone else, he has a chance to show that he can abide by the rules.

No. I have painted gunite pools and spas, didn't work. Well, the pool worked fine for several years, but the spa flaked right away. I have painted fiberglas spas. Didn't work. I have painted acrylic spas - didn't work. Gel Coat has worked on fiberglas, but it always cobalts eventually. Let's see, am I leaving anything out?

Dr. Spa has already said so, and I know I am sure glad to be able to help. I will have to be gentle on the pro-HotSpring babble, and I invite you all to keep me on my toes in that regard. Either of us will be very glad to respond to emails - this is a community, we can now begin to enjoy it together.

Well, we have sold lots of tubs on 110 and the folks are happy with them.

Five degrees per hour is a lot of heat creep. I would call the service department and have them verify that the heater is not staying on due to a problem with the control system. If they will not check it, or are too inept, you do it yourself, or with the help of an electrician/friend. You should start with the spa at your chosen temperature. Then shut off power and open the control box. disconnect the wires to the heater - tape them off safely to be sure they can't touch anything - Close up the control box and spa. Repower the spa and take a soak. If the heat still climbs, then there's not much you can do: this is a problem with spas which do not isolate the heat of the jet pumps from the spa shell.

Actually, blisters don't usually leak. If you have a leak, that would be the structure and I would sure look closely at it before investing more time or money. But all you really need to do with blisters is cut out and sharp edges and sand them smooth. If they are really hard to get smooth, you can fill them with bondo, paint with acrylic and repeat in about five years. There are many good epoxy adhesives which will close up cracks - I guess it all depends upon how good you want the tub to look vs. making sure it functions well.

Me too. My oldest is moving out in a few days. He has an AA degree and several licenses for Networking and computer stuff, but Mom and I can't motivate him to a four-year college. So we are waiting and watching. He's our best employee, a real turn-around. And since he started making a budget and planning to launch on his own, I have noticed he's not stingy with overtime etc., but as you said Roger, he is about to embark on the true test of how well we raised him. Sigh. Dr. James Dobson once said, "A parent's true job is letting go." I guess I have watched my wife do that all through the lives of our kids, finally it's my turn.

You can't run jets and heat at the same time. In some spas that makes no difference at all - especially small, well-insulated tubs, more so if they recycle heat from the jet pumps. You will heat slower. This is not often a problem because most folks set the temp and leave it there, so you don't really wait to get in. Check with people who own the specific model to see of any of that matters to them. Then be sure to run a large enough conduit so if you want to change later it would be a matter of pulling in new wire.

No, not really. They have put in limiters on the new Spaudio II. I have yet to have anyone fry those. But the ones who did fry the earlier system were running extreme low-end stuff. Paul Oakenfold, to be precise. If you have a high-end stereo in the house, you stand the same chance there.

I was wating to see if others responded, but I'm afraid most shoppers have fled the scene around here. So, I will say this: the HotSpring system uses two transducers and two external speakers. The speakers can be mounted close to the spa, which makes it the best sounding system I have heard to date. But if you want, you can mount the external speakers in another part of your home or yard. Then you rely on the transducers only for the spa, and frankly they are good but not great. The sound quality is so subjective, of course, many people find the Transducers to be more than addequate - and it is so nice to have the whole system integrated into the tub, plus not having speakers to work around or worry about is a plus. I have had a few folks burn out Transducers by running bass-heavy music at high levels - but during the first year the warranty will cover that, and I haven't had many who do it twice. The external speakers are outdoor-rated, but not a name-brand. Of course if it matters to you, you could give them to your kid and make easy connections to a set of Bose, Sony, Yamaha, JBL, HarmonKarden, Klipsch or whatever you like. Give it a try at a HotSpring dealer near you. Bring your own CD, of course.