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I think you've understood my question, and I guess the good news is how very well spas are insulated these days. We're still debating between the Caldera C45 and the Geneva, so I didn't realize how little heat they lose. It seems that my question is pretty much moot, which I think is a good thing for all of us, in the long run. Thanks, everybody. Ron

I think you've understood my question, and I guess the good news is how very well spas are insulated these days. We're still debating between the Caldera C45 and the Geneva, so I didn't realize how little heat they lose. It seems that my question is pretty much moot, which I think is a good thing for all of us, in the long run. Thanks, everybody. Ron

We are shopping ourselves. As the Consumer Reports (I mean "leading consumer magazine") reading-types, we look at features, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah. But the thing you'll see over and over in this forum is the importance of wet-testing: put on your suit, and get in the water. You'll discover that you like some jets, some configurations, etc. My wife started out thinking lumbar jets were very important to her, but discovered that it's the big foot jets that she really likes. Price is important, but if you enjoy it more, you'll be happier with your purchase. Ron

Well, since I plan on being in it every night, it shouldn't ever have a chance to get that cold! I haven't heard anybody estimate the costs yet, but it still seems to me that letting it drift down to no lower than say, 75,(80, whatever you want) during the day, and then heating it up to 100 in the evening would use less energy that trying to keep it at 100 for 24/7. Ron

That looks like exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! I didn't see the kind of remote that could be controlled via the computer, when I was looking on their website, but I thought I'd try to call them. Unfortunately, as you said, the prices are not cheap. Do you know of anyone who offers something simpler (ie cheaper) that would just offer me the kind of functionality I get from my $40 home programmable thermostat, without the remote accessability? Also thanks for the heating info. We knew that our local HS shop had been able to heat up a tub from room temp (say 70) to 100 between the time we called at 10, and 5, so 5 degrees per hour seems reasonable. Thanks again. Ron

Insulation is important, but here in Nevada, every tub has an estimated electrical usage sticker on the side (CA laws mandate it, and we're 10 miles from CA), so it's easy to estimate the energy usage for comparison purposes. But like anyone on this forum would say, never buy a tub without wet testing. Jets look impressive, but there's no way to know how they feel, how they hit the places you need relief in most until you feel the bubbles. Ron

Unfortunately, that doesn't account for the insulation, whose job it is to protect my precious hot water from the cold world outside. And now that I think about it, I guess my question also comes out of ignorance of how long it takes to heat up a spa from a given temperature. How long for most tubs to go from 90 to 100? 95 to 100? 80 to 100? Ron

That's the argument you hear, but I know I saved money when I put a timer on my electric hot water heater, when I had one of those, which is obviously somewhat relevant. In the case of your house furnace, you can fairly quickly heat up a house full of air fairly quickly. Water doesn't heat up as quickly, I know. But in say the summer, if the spa thermostat shut down at midnight, I wonder how much it would cool down by 6pm the next night, given the state of insulation today. Suppose, for the sake of argument, it got down to 90. With a smart thermostat, (not the dumb programmable ones we have today), it could say, "hmm, I'm supposed to be at 101 at 7pm. Time to fire up!" But if it had only gone down to 95, it would start heating at 6:30 (or whenever, I obviously don't know how long it takes to heat). Also, I assume you could set it to hold at 92 all day, and then go up to 101 from 6-12, etc. I've heard people say there wouldn't be much in the way of savings, but I've never seen anything remotely quantitative about it. I'm hoping someone can either A. Tell me of someone who's doing this now or selling an aftermarket kit, or B. Point me to some hard numbers that convince me that the savings would be trivial. BTW, sorry there accidentally ended up with two of these postings. If anyone knows how to get rid of the second one, please do it or tell me how. Thanks.

Accidentally started thread twice, and couldn't figure out how to delete this one. If anyone can delete this thread, that'd be great. Thanks, Ron

Everyone seems to agree that if you want your house to be 70 when you come home in the winter, the most efficient way is to have a programmable thermostat that keeps the house cool during the day and then heats it up by 5:30 when you come home, and then cools it down while you sleep, etc. One thing a lot of people have said is that you want your tub hot all of the time, so you can get in it whenever you want, otherwise, you won't use it. Here's my question. Is there any way to get my spa to not attempt to keep it hot all night long, or during the day. I'm going to use my spa mostly in the evening, so if it would keep it hot for 6 hours at night, and then just turn off the heater at midnight, it'd never interrupt my use. Given the price of fuel and rising concerns about energy consumption that in a few years we won't have spas with programmable thermostats that can keep them cool during the weekdays, and hot during weekend days. The geek in me would love to be able to remotely turn it up a few degrees from the comfort of my PC, and then go get in it. Thanks, Ron

Thanks for the response. The more I research, the more value I see in the 24hr circ pump, for clarity/filtration purposes. Thanks. Ron

We are currently shopping for our first spa, and the one thing I can say is that you should go to as many dealers and sit in as many tubs filled with hot water as possible. We visited our Caldera dealer first, and were impressed, and came back with our suits, and found it very comfortable. Then we wet-tested: Dimension 1, LA Spas, Sundance (2 models), Limelight, Hot Springs (2 models). Still like Caldera best, trying to decide between the Geneva and the C45. Some people think that broadening your search to more brands leads to "analysis paralysis" where you have so much information that you can't make a decision. I claim the opposite is true: you'll find one that you like best so far, and every time you get in a new one, you'll compare it to your favorite so far. Over time, you'll notice that you like the foot jets on this brand a little better, or whatever, and figure out what feels the best, and what is most important to you. Maybe you'll end up with Caldera, but if not, it's because you found something that fits you better. I was leaning toward the C45, because it's $1700 cheaper, but like the recirculating pump, and some of the other features. Neither one is exactly cheap, (I mean really, does anyone absolutely have to spend $7000 to sit in hot water?), but way cheaper than the $14,000 Sundance we sat in, and we found Caldera much more comfortable. But if we do spend more, we're going to be using it for at least 10 years, so you don't want to spend 10 years wishing you'd spent a little more for whatever it was. Good luck. Ron

We wet-tested Hot Springs and Limelight yesterday. The Limelight looks pretty when nobody's in it, because of all of the LEDs, but once the water's moving, you can't see them anyway. More importantly, it really didn't fit us well. I was very excited about the HS Moto-Massage jets, but really wasn't impressed with them. We were in a Grandee, and my favorite seat was the one with 10 "Directional Precision" jets. With kids, we like the idea of a bigger tub, for more room for them and friends to splash around, but my wife really likes a recliner, so we're going to go back to try the HS Vista. The HS salesman was very knowledgeable, stayed 45 min after closing while we tried it out, (we'd called ahead and were coming as early as we could get there), and was a very nice guy, so we'd kind of like to like his tubs the best. However, after wet testing D1, Caldera, LA Spas, Sundance (2), Hot Springs and Limelight, Caldera is the one to beat for us, so far. They have a floor model C45, so the price difference between it and the Geneva is even greater than usual. Ron

Interesting. Glad to hear you're pleased. We tested an LA Spa Tuscan maybe? It was too small, it seemed, for our family of 2 smallish kids who like to jump around, and 2 adults. We really like the Caldera C45, because it fits all of us very comfortably. We really noticed the amount of water issue in the LA Spa, as it rose it quite high. I thought the shoulder jets on LA looked great, but was disappointed in the way it fit me, that if I had my back against the lumbar jets, my shoulders were too high to go under the jets, and when I got them under there, they weren't what I was hoping for. Just goes to prove the value of wet-testing. The LA dealer was filling a larger tub, where the shoulder jets are in a deeper seat, and we might have gone back to test it again, but unfortunately, the owner of the store has only been selling spas of any kind for 4 years, and just doesn't seem to know squat about anything, and I'm sorry, but I just don't care to reward that kind of service with my business (and it makes me wonder how good his service is, though he says his techs are the most experienced in town). Ron

We looked at LA spas today, and the impression they give is that 100% of the water goes through the filters, and that that's not the case with most spas, so you're getting cleaner water. Is that true, and if so, is there really that big of a difference? Thanks, Ron

The C45 is the scaled-down version of the Geneva - 2 less jets, no colored light show, only one controller instead of two, and I think outside lighting. Assuming we like the wet test, those are all things I can live without, especially for a more than $1500 savings. The one thing I wondered about is that it doesn't have a recirculating pump, and from what I've read on the board, some people seemed surprised that you could have an O3 system without having a recirculating pump, but I don't understand enough about it to know whether that's a valid concern or not. Thanks. Ron

It seems like people generally like Caldera Spas on these boards. We are looking at a C45 floor model for $6977 (that price includes lid, lifter and steps). We haven't wet tested yet, but plan to do so today. This is our first spa, we wet tested several about 6 years ago. What should we be looking for? Any other brands or models we should look at in that general price range? We are in Northern Nevada - any specific suggestions or comments are welcome.