Andrew61987
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Posts posted by Andrew61987
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Been having problems with my pool recently. pH was 6.8, ALK was ~120, and the pool was green with algae all over the sides, even though I cleaned it all off just a couple days before.
Chlorine stays at 5+ ppm always. Dichlor.
I added 4 boxes of Borax to bring pH at about 7.2 and 4 ounces of Super Algae Stop (which is algaecide w/o copper).
Algae was gone after 12 hours, but now the water is bluish white, I would almost call it "milky" although I can still see the bottom. The algaecide made the water smell rather bad and taste funny too. Will this go away soon? It's been a couple days. It also has a foaming problem now too when I kick around in the water. Is this the algaecide or Borax?
20,000 gal pool
temp: 82 degrees F
Remains covered except when in use.
Another question about borates:
I added 4 boxes several months ago, and I added another 4 ounces the last couple days. Do borates dissipate from the pool? Or am I getting close to the point where I should stop adding borax and use soda ash instead?
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Adding baking soda does not raise the pH very much. 6 pounds added to 20,000 gallons starting with a pH of 6.8, TA of 110, assumed CYA of 50, raises the pH only to 6.87, but the TA rises to 131. Baking Soda is NOT for raising pH, but for raising TA. If you added 20 pounds of baking soda to your pool, it would have raised the pH to 7.0 but the TA would rise to 181.
To raise the pH, you use either 20 Mule Team Borax or you use pH Up which is the same as Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda (sodium carbonate). Use The Pool Calculator to calculate amounts of the chemical you choose to use.
Richard
Thanks Richard...
I thought I Had to go back to Pool School
I stand corrected, sorry mumpelnc.
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Site20,000 in ground vinyl liner pool. Alk is about 110 - 120. I have been keeping the chlorine level fairly high, probably between about 5 - 10 ppm over the last 3 or 4 weeks or so to combat some algae. The pH is 6.8. I added a couple pounds of baking soda which was all I had and after 24 hours observed no change. Added a few pounds more and now it has been several days and the pH has not budged.
Any suggestions?
Baking Soda raises Alk, Borax raises Ph..
Baking soda will raise pH just fine.Something else must be up.
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20,000 in ground vinyl liner pool. Alk is about 110 - 120. I have been keeping the chlorine level fairly high, probably between about 5 - 10 ppm over the last 3 or 4 weeks or so to combat some algae. The pH is 6.8. I added a couple pounds of baking soda which was all I had and after 24 hours observed no change. Added a few pounds more and now it has been several days and the pH has not budged.
Any suggestions?
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Wow, and to think I was using it this whole time. Not sure how that happened so quick.
Is it possible the low pH was causing the sanitizing tablets to dissolve quicker than normal resulting in a high concentration of sanitizer?
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2 days ago I tested my spa water with the typical Taylor titration type alkalinity test. Upon adding the indicator solution the sample immediately turned red before I even added a drop of sulfuric acid. I took this as TA = 0. I then tested the pH and it was off the chart low. I sprinkled in some baking soda to remedy the problem and tested it an hour, as well as 12 hours later.
Testing the alkalinity after the baking soda resulted in a LIGHT BLUE (instead of the usual green) sample after adding the TA Indicator solution, and 8 drops of sulfuric it turned yellow (instead of the usual red). I took this as TA = 80 which is acceptable, however I have never seen these weird colors in the alkalinity test before. What does this mean?
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My dad and I notice that when I clean out the cartridge filter the water seems to go cloudy for a little while. Does the dirt and oil contained in a slightly dirty filter aid in further cleaning of the water by effectively increasing the density of the mesh? Or is this the work of some other phenomenon?
(20,000 in ground vinyl lined pool, using dichlor)
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I notice the EXACT same thing. Sorry I don't have an answer, but I am interested in hearing one.
It's clear to me that bromine has the well known drawback of having a fishy smell. I just want some clarification however what specifically causes it, being that the smell it not always there, but there is always Br in the water.What I observe is:
After starting the spa, the smell is the strongest, over two weeks the smell will dissipate and will not return unless I add Boost [br] sometimes there is a hint of the smell. Sometimes you can go in the tub during this time and smell nothing until after an hour or so of soaking.
1. Is there a reaction that releases something?
2. Why isn't the smell always there?
Mostly I don't find the need for Boost since Br level is pretty well maintained using just the skimmer and shock.
3. Do I need to add Br Boost if my chemical balance is perfect?
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My 2003 used thrmospa manhattan deluxe is being delivered to me on May 23. It was a little neglected so it is prett filthy inside. Can anyone tell me the best way to clean the tub so it is like new.
Someone told me to wax it? What wax do I use.
Oh and yes that is a dead thing floating. YUCK
Bail out as much of the water as you can, but don't tweak out trying to get every last puddle. Then go to a wet/dry vac and suck out the rest of the water and leaves and crap as you continue to rinse down the sides to make sure you get all the large heavy solids like dirt and sand. Fill it up all the way and run it for a couple days while you sanitize it to death. Maintain a high bromine level and shock the **** out of it. Clean the filter AT LEAST once, maybe more if you need to. Then drain it and get some GOOD spa cleaner from the pool store. When you drain it don't bother cleaning the filter a final time. Throw it out and buy a fresh one. Now it's time to start scrubbing your brains out. Scrub every inch of the shell with the cleaner while rinsing it. If you're having trouble getting motivated, just imagine what might have been done in the spa in the past!
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Once a spa runs out of bromine and gets cant-see-the-bottom-cloudy (FYI this is happening in a matter of hours, usually after it gets used while low on bromine) is there any easy way to clear that water up? Or is it just easier at that point to drain it and put fresh water?
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Any word on the quality of Waterways? I've actually already found their product online and was thinking of using it, but I don't want to end up buying the same crap I already have.
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Do most people who buy spa's get bored quick? I got mine for free but my wife and I were talking today and if we had to pay $10,000 for this thing we would be regretting it by now. Don't get me wrong we really like it but it has only been running for 2 weeks. I could totally see people getting a new hot tub and getting bored of it quick.
Had it 4 years. First year I wasn't really into it, but I've used it almost every day the last 3 and love it.
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I have a Pro-Form Storm hot tub that is about 4 years old. It's been a complete piece of garbage and a total waste of money with everything that's gone wrong with it and the lack of customer support. But, it's what I got and I'm trying to work with it.
The worst part about it is the jets. They constantly break. The inserts pop out of the housings, they seize up and stop spinning, they won't shut off when you twist them, they are disintegrating, etc etc etc. Every day I find more of these little plastic teeth in the bottom and I have no idea where they are coming from. I already had to hack the thing up and install a ghetto valve to shut off the neck jets so they didn't shoot fierce high pressure water from above the water line rendering pump #2 unusable.
I am interested in re-jetting the entire spa with a different brand or style of jets and housings. Any advice on good quality parts? I would like to be able to manually control each one by twisting it to shut it off and NOT have it fall apart in 6 months like every replacement jet ever sent to me from Pro Form.
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OK, since you actually want to increase the Borates, I understand what you are doing. Unfortunately, while this will work to increase borates, it won't work to decrease TA. The reason is that when you add a pure acid (such as Muriatic Acid which is 31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) it causes both the pH and the TA to drop. However, when you add a pure base (such as Lye which is Sodium Hydroxide) it raises both the pH and the TA by exactly that same amount so getting back to the same pH gets you back to exactly the same TA where you started. Using Borax as a base has the pH and TA go up like Lye PLUS a small amount more for TA, though that small increase in TA is borate ion and not carbonates. When posts say that Borax doesn't raise the TA very much the way that pH Up (sodium carbonate) does, this is referring to the change in TA from both going to the SAME pH. So while pH Up will have the TA rise about twice as much as Borax will for the same pH increase, the Borax will nevertheless have the TA rise by slightly more than acid makes it drop -- it's a yo-yo effect.
So unfortunately the acid and base yo-yo won't reduce the TA very much. You may find, however, that the TA does drop some anyway since when your pool water is at low pH it will outgas carbon dioxide faster so is similar to greater aeration. A lower pH has the pool be more out of equilibrium with carbon dioxide in the air (i.e. low pH has more of the carbonates shift towards carbon dioxide). In other words, if you do your procedure but just keep the pool at lower pH (near 7.0) for a longer period of time, then to the degree that it rises in pH on its own then you'll somewhat be lowering the TA. If you use Borax to raise the pH instead of having aeration or natural outgassing do so, then you could be doing this forever with no change in TA if there were no outgassing from the pool (if it were covered, for example).
Chemically, what is happening with this yo-yo is that a drop in pH from acid mostly shifts bicarbonate ion, HCO3- to carbon dioxide, CO2 and carbonic acid, H2CO3 where the former bicarbonate species is measured as TA. When you add a base, the shift is exactly the opposite in direction and is identical in quantity if you end up at the same pH. With Borates, this is also true, but you also add a small amount of extra TA in the form of borate ion, B(OH)4- (most of the Borax that is added becomes boric acid, B(OH)3 which does not count towards TA -- Borax in water becomes Boric Acid plus hydroxyl ions with the latter being what raises the pH).
Aeration is pretty easy. Just turning the returns up so they disturb the water surface will help. This device can help aerate the water as can a water fountain or a shower connected to a pool cover pump, etc.
Richard
Ah, so I'm just making my problem worse. Thanks for clearing up that bit about Borax/sulfates and TA for me.
Anyway, with a pH of now 7.2, TA of 160, and crystal clear water should I even be messing with it? Sometimes I tend to want things too perfect for my own good, maybe I should just let it be.
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The correct procedure to follow to lower the TA is described here and is a combination of aeration at low pH with addition of acid to keep the pH low. You do not want to add Borax to raise the pH -- though it will raise the TA less, this will accumulate Borates that you may or may not want to do. Aeration increases the pH with no change in TA (it drives out carbon dioxide from the water -- think of stirring up or blowing bubbles in a carbonated beverage -- pools are intentionally over-carbonated and carbonates are the primary component of TA).
Richard
I've never added borates to the pool since the last time it was filled with quality city water. I've read that the recommended amount of borates for those who choose to add borates to their pool is 30-50 ppm. Based on the math here:
http://www.troublefreepool.com/sticky.php?s=4921
I would need something like 14 or 15 boxes of borax to reach those borate levels. Based on the pH change observed so far with the 4 boxes I've added, I wont need to add anywhere near 14 boxes to achieve what I'm trying to do. I figure another couple boxes of borax to get my pH up in the high 7s, then add acid to bring pH down a bit as well as TA. I'm obviously under the impression that acid will lower TA more than Borax will raise it for a given change in pH. Aeration just isn't practical for me right now.
I have a chemical background....if there is some reason that this just is NOT going to work by all means explain it to me
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The correct procedure to follow to lower the TA is described here and is a combination of aeration at low pH with addition of acid to keep the pH low. You do not want to add Borax to raise the pH -- though it will raise the TA less, this will accumulate Borates that you may or may not want to do. Aeration increases the pH with no change in TA (it drives out carbon dioxide from the water -- think of stirring up or blowing bubbles in a carbonated beverage -- pools are intentionally over-carbonated and carbonates are the primary component of TA).
Richard
I've never added borates to the pool since the last time it was filled with quality city water. I've read that the recommended amount of borates for those who choose to add borates to their pool is 30-50 ppm. Based on the math here:
http://www.troublefreepool.com/sticky.php?s=4921
I would need something like 14 or 15 boxes of borax to reach those borate levels. Based on the pH change observed so far with the 4 boxes I've added, I wont need to add anywhere near 14 boxes to achieve what I'm trying to do. I figure another couple boxes of borax to get my pH up in the high 7s, then add acid to bring pH down a bit as well as TA. I'm obviously under the impression that acid will lower TA more than Borax will raise it for a given change in pH. Aeration just isn't practical for me right now.
I have a chemical background....if there is some reason that this just is NOT going to work by all means explain it to me
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I've been battling a low pH / high TA problem in my 20,000 gallon in-ground vinyl lined pool. I've read that borax will raise pH without much effect on TA, so I've been trying to use borax to get by pH up over target value, then I hope to add some acid to bring them both down to target value. I've added 4 boxes of borax so far and I've got my pH up to about 7.2 (it was quite low). My TA is about 160. Is this going to work? What pH should I shoot for in order to bring my TA down (I'll be happy with 120).
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Hi
I have a 20,000 gallon vinyl lined pool. The problem I'm having is cloudy dull water with slight algae that is very difficult to brush off. A couple days ago my TA was was over 200 and pH was I think about 7.4. Messing around with it (mostly just adding HCl) I have gotten my TA down to about 160-170 but my pH is about 6.8.
Some other information:
CYA: 60ppm
TDS: 1000ppm
As it stands I'm trying to balance out the pH and TA by disconnecting my sweep and taking the hose for it out of the pool and shooting it back into the pool in an arc to try and aerate the water pulling CO2 out via concentration gradient to the air. How long does something like this take? I did it for about 8 hours yesterday and it's been going another 8 hours today and I haven't noticed much of a result with my drop based TA and pH test kit. Water is still cloudy and dull.
I have tried blue clarifier and shock to no avail. I am using granulated chlorine (Chlor-Brite I think?) to sanitize.
I don't know if I'll ever be able to get my pH and TA in check, and even if I do, I don't even know for sure if it will solve my dull cloudy water problem.
Non Copper Algaecide And Borox
in Swimming Pool Water Chemistry
Posted
The algae coincided with a whole bunch of dirt that went into the pool from some construction being done next door. Does that make sense? Do you anticipate the foaming and bad smells from algaecide to disapear?
Local pool store says my CYA is 35 but I don't necessarily trust them. Having lots of trouble finding a stand alone CYA test kit.