stl-rex
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Posts posted by stl-rex
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Don't panic about this statement either as 95 percent of all your leaks will be in the equipment area and it won't matter how the spa is insulated to fix these leaks.
I understand your perspective, but understand his and the fact he's in that 5% range. New tub, and they're digging wet foam out to repair. Personally it would bother me also. I think his concern lies more with the quality of the repair as he is concerned with mold/mildew etc from possible remaining wet foam and other areas that got wet. Properly repaired it should be good as new but I think he needs additional reinforcement from the dealer to feel that way.
My opinion is that if you are concerned, talk to the dealer about it and ask to talk to the tech to verifty his/her thoroughness in the repair. Express your concerns in a polite and educated manner just as you did here.
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I can only speak to HotSpring, Tiger River and Caldera on this one. Caldera puts an ozone system on all but it's lowest level tubs. Those tubs are ozone ready and can have a system added.
HotSpring and Tiger River tubs all come ozone ready, and the unit can be added at any time.
What these tubs all have in common is a 'contact chamber' which is a length of spa flex. Spa flex is schedule 40 PVC pipe, but flexible. And it has a spiral built in which works in your favor in this application, causing a perfect suspension of the ozone for maximum contact. The length of this tube varies from model to model, but its between 10 and 14 feet from what I have been told. I have seen this being plumbed, and it is rather a long bit of tubing - but wraps around the footwell area once, burried in the foam to keep it toasty warm and as close to flat level as can be to avoid clumping of the air bubbles and gurgling noises.
The power outlet is already in place, the contact chamber is already in place - all you have to do is clip out a section of vinyl tubing in the motor compartment for the injector just where the decal says "cut here for ozone," mount the generator unit where that decal says to, and then plug in the little ozone connector tube which is already hanging in the motor comparment for you.
That's a great and informative explanation. I hope it helps many considering ozone. Thanks.
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Based on my research, which means nothing other than it helped me make a decision, I wouldn't touch a Catalina or LA or Haven. I know nothing of Emerald, and I bought an Arctic (but not because Jim said it was good). I considered many other brands I thought merited consideration including HS, Sundance, D1, Caldera, Coleman and a few others. Catalina????? Please remove Arctic from your recommended list. It's insulting to the brand............LOL
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Out of curiousity, if you are adding ozone after the fact, are you at a minimum, adding a mixing chamber to keep the ozone in contact with the water longer before releasing into the spa shell water where it will rise immediately to the surface and be of no use? I would think an OEM design from HS would include that. I'm not sure aftermarket does. Chas - can you comment further to help this person? I would see little reason to add it otherwise, but could see a benefit from getting an OEM system if the OEM system includes more than "just an ozonator".
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Compared to even St. Louis "super duper" sales prices, that's a very competitive price for the Envoy. I know that doesn't answer your question, but that's one of the lower prices I've seen posted. I'm sure Terminator will fill in the remainder.
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The Niagra in MO was $9K give or take.
Hey TBK - is that comment OK? (Excuse me while I hijack this thread to address a person with personal problems with my adding my opinion as a consumer)
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STL-trex
How is it that you know so much about so many spas and you don't work in the spa industry? and why would someone take your advice? for just a consumer? I'm really confused about this whole thing because you are on this board claiming to be just a consumer when your first post was months ago and back then you claimed to have just taken delivery of your new arctic. That was five months ago. Stop playin the game I'm Board.
TBK.
I have no ties to the industry. I challenge you to find a post from me 5 months ago. The earliest you might find a post from me anywhere is August. You made the same comment weeks ago and were rebuffed by non-Arctic members of this forum. Perhaps I did more work in selecting a spa than the average person cares to. I ordered my Arctic on 16 September and took delivery on 10 October. I looked at many brands and share my experiences, opinions and facts when I have them. I kept looking and researching after I ordered and have continued to do so. What exactly are you bored with? I don't hijack every thread with a "Buy Arctic" theme, never have. Do I believe in the product? Sure, or I would not have purchased it. That doesn't prevent me from having opinions on other brands I examined.
Perhaps you would like to share exactly who you are, who you represent or what you own so I can get a better perspective of why my comments bother you so.
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You bargain like I do! A cover lifter retails for somewhere around $150 - $200. Don't let it break the deal. I don't know about ozone. You technically don't need it, but anecdotally, it may make it easier to maintain your water. It's only an oxidization supplement. It's not a replacement for using a true sanitizer (bromine/chlorine or Baqua (if you live on the edge)). Good LucK/
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Moving to the Deluxe version of the coleman gets you two pumps on the 471 and two bigger pumps on the 481. Coleman is a fine brand and suddenly they are a lot more evenly matched. Where you are on all three tubs ($5K+ range), I'd say let the wet test guide you. Are the coleman's floor models or could you order at that price? Find out how much for ozone in the Colemans. Then you really are apples to apples with D1. If you like the coleman's best, go for it.
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Does anyone know where I can find the MSRP on the Sundance Bahia or Marin? I've searched all over but can't find a thing. I was offered the Bahia for 5000 or the Marin for 4400. Finding cost for them are harding than finding an honest politican. Could someone offer some help other than the standard, "Do a search"? thanks
So you're saying Bill Frist isn't an honest politician? (hailing from TN and all.........)
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HotSpring dealers only mark their spas up $10.
Terminator
HAHAHAHAHAH LOL HAHAHAHAHAA - Stop it you're killing me Termie. Is that before or after you pay Tammy?
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I have an Emerald 595 but, we have sold the house and need a new one at our new home. I have narrowes my search down to four choices. Any input would be very helpful, the good, the bad and indifferent. My "FINAL FOUR" are;
1) Dimension one Diplomat (clearance priced @5625)
2) Coleman 471, standard package (priced @5450)
3) Coleman 481, standard package (priced @5880)
4) Sundance Altamar, standard package, no price quote, yet.
I'm leaning towards the D1 as the price is very,very good for this model but, perhaps you could persuade me otherwise. Thanks in advance. I need answers soon, moving in less than 2 weeks.
As configured and against the others, the D1 is a steal. If the double lounge works for you, I'm not sure how you could walk away from it. If it works for you, my opinion is that it is more tub than either Coleman and I doubt the Altamar comparably equipped is going to be in that range. The D1 has a nice jet package, the adjustable neck jets make it useful for different height people and it's going to come standard with UV Ozone. It's a very respected brand. I doubt you'll regret it.
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Clay, when I was looking, the Geneva was running mid to high $8K. Earlier in the year a friend purchased it for $8500. I probably could have had it for the same price had I pursued it.
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That guide is pretty good. Just remember it was written by a company that promotes Sundance and as I read it could see that fact in what was written.
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Since the BBB has been brought up, lets lok at some other major spa companies.
Arctic Spas - 10 complaints files in the last 36 months
Where did you get the Arctic Spas number?
I looked here and saw the big zippo. (the link did not work - copy and add the 'h' at the beginning.
ttp://search.bbb.org/viewreport.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spock.usshurdman.com%2F%7Eedm%2Fcommonreport.html%3Fbid%3D106215&recordid=106215.0027&type=name
I know because I had already checked them out.
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Welcome to the world of spas. There are virtually no unbiased ratings or reports of spas-in-general. Consumer Guide (not Reports) ratings, PoolandSpa ratings and other publication ratings are bought, not earned. Your best bet is to avoid the hype, visit local dealers that will be around for you after the sale and wet test several brands and models within a brand if possible. A few "name" brands have bad raps for quality. There are many dealers on the forums happy to promote their brand. Most do so professionally. A few do not. If it seems like you are getting a lot of spa for the money, you probably are not. Some inferior brands like to throw in radios or TV's in the hopes of enticing the unknowing consumer wowed by gadgetry.
Test for the 3F's. Fit/Float/Feel
Fit - is the seating comfortable and do the seats fit you, and others who will routinely use the spa, well?
Float - can you stay in the seats - tough because the body is buyont. Some designs make it easier than others. If you want "lounge", a wet test is even more recommended.
Feel - do you like the way the jets feel? Do they hit the right places?. Is there enough pressure? Are they comfortable for more than 60 seconds? When you get the spa home, you might find the spa that was really impressive for 60 seconds really isn't that great at 10 - 15 minutes.
From compiling forum notes or from direct wet testing, these are brands I would feel comfortable sending a friend to look at. Arctic, Caldera, Coleman, Dimension1, Hotsprings, Hydropool, Jacuzzi, Marquis, Sundance.
Because I feel so strongly about wet testing and having local dealer support, I would discourage anyone from trying to purchase one over the internet. I have purchased many things over the internet, electronics, golf clubs, etc. This was one purchase I wouldn't consider making over the internet. There is no way to tell if a spa is really going to work for you by looking at pictures.
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Yes they did name the too spas sundance and hot springs, we also tested a Cal-Spa in this study. The Cal-Spa was 5 years older than the other spas. Funny thing is they were all close to the same efficiency figures. The temperature was not 7 F. it was 47 F.
P.S. I would think that if the consumer is most important, would you or would you not wonder why Arctic uses questionable tactics.
TBK.
The Cost Comparison Study on the Arctic website has an unnamed "foam filled spa" and it is not represented as an independent study. I'd like to see more information but it's not there. Most people wouldn't view $17 and $21 dollars per month as being that different in the context of a big purchase like this. For me, the ARC study was more of a "it doesn't cost any more to run Arctic than any other high quality spa", and you have the advantage of accessibility if there ever are problems. All that would have meant nothing if they didn't win the wet test.
I still see it like this. At least in the states, Arctic is relatively new. You are competing against a bunch of folks who would love nothing more than to see you fail, including dealers on these forums. A HUGE percentage of people don't wet test. You better be able to differentiate your product. Arctic has nice pitch for those who choose not to get wet, and people buy on it. A fiberglass floor, thick cover and thick self supporting shell tell a nice story. So does "mine insulates just as well" AND you can get at all the parts. SOLD! (without a wet test) That just has to get under the skin of competing companies and dealers who can try to counter with "you don't really need that" "they suck" etc but then sound petty or negative. Do you need it? Well if they hadn't won the wet test, it would not have sold us......I would have purchased any of several other well known brands otherwise.
By the way, since you were there, why don't you post the results in their entirety. I'd sincerely like to see them.
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Well, I want to know what you got! I haven't purchased it yet. I just know I want someone accountable within driving distance! In my town there is a D1 dealer and Master Spa. I'm sure there are just a few more in RI, but if you are a satisfied tell us! The good manufacturers and dealers need props here too!
I don't think you have an Arctic dealer "close". Peabody, MA probably is the closest. Our wet test led us to conclude Arctic was the spa of choice. We chose the Tundra. www.goarctic.com is the corporate website if you want to see the footprints. IMO, the jets felt the best of anything we tested and the seat with 7-5" jets was unlike any other on the market. As a reference, we wet tested at dealers or friends, Sundance, HotSprings, Dimension1, Jacuzzi, Caldera and Master. Nothing wrong with any of the spas although we didn't care for the Master or Sundance dealer.
I worked with an excellent dealer and had several exchanges with Arctic corporate. There was nothing in any of my exchanges that would lead me to believe that they are nothing but a first class company. If you get the opportunity, I would highly recommend you visit an Arctic showroom. The Tundra is their best seller and from what I could determine, is so for good reason. Good Luck. Look around and have fun doing so. 'Test driving' can be fun!
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thanks for the pic of artic fox. its a great size for small outdoor space. what concerns me is the metal cabinet with a 5 year warrantee. i had an old sonoma for 20 years with a wood cabinet, no problem. also i am not sure but are artic spas FULLY foamed. i am not a fan and want to be able to get to pipes if they break. i live on long island new york and we still get very cold winters sometimes. also i love deep therapy jets so i want lots of power and from this site it seems artic spas deliver. i am off to look at LA spas today. i really loved the sundance spas i saw yesterday. also marquise, coleman, caldera but they are getting to expensive for me. i had hoped to stay in the 6500.00 range for a small tub.
The Fox is a very strong performer and provides exceptional therapy. But a wet test is must. The main therapy seat in the Fox (and a few other Arctic models) is unlike most others. Many spa mfrs use a seat full of directional jets for therapy or a mix of directional jets and a few rotating jets. The Arctic therapy seat has 7-5" rotating jets, large jets in comparison to other spa mfrs jets. It actually feels like a massage since it really moves the muscle rather than just poking/needling at it. You may or may not care for it, but nothing else I wet tested came close.
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(PS I scheduled my wet test at D1 today to "ease" my frustration).
After all you've been through, I hope you like the D1. You seem to favor it. I thought D1 made a fine spa, it just didn't fit us as well as what we chose. I highly doubt you would receive the same treatment from D1. Everything I've seen indicates they are a reliable spa and strong company that backs their product.
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What exactly is an "elaborate mixing chamber" A chunk of tubing?
I thought I remembered this sarcastic comment. It's clear your extreme bias just by that statement. But this the best description I could find and is from one of the managing owners of Arctic. Yea, it'a bit more than a chunk of tubing. Arctic has descriptive literature but not as detailed as this was.
"1) We use a corona discharge ozone generator that was designed for swimming pool applications. It produces 500mg/h of ozone at a concentration of 1400ppm.
2) Because we are producing so much ozone, we have to adequately mix it and then destroy any off-gas that has not dissolved into solution. To do that we require:
a) A special circulation pump that is capable of performing in a highly corrosive application. The pump we use costs more then a standard jet pump.
b ) We then need a mazzei injector to help break up the ozone so that in can more readily dissolve into solution.
c) From there we need a stainless steel static mixing column with ,high surface area Tri-pac in it, to further help mix the ozone into solution
d) Then it goes into another stainless steel off-gas chamber, which is designed to draw off any undissolved gas.
e) The undissolved gas is then drawn through a catalytic filter, which converts the ozone back to oxygen."
Does it work in practice? Is Ozone effective at all? I believe Ozone is a powerful oxidizer and it's use in water treatment plants suggests it can have an effect. I chose the upgrade in the hope of reducing chemical use (for comfort purposes) and making water maintenance as painless as possible. The local dealer indicated based on anticipated load/use that we really didn't need it and not to expect a payback in chemical costs (which did not enter into the decision).
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I was in Loveland when the independant study was done. It was done by a dealer. and the numbers changes by the time the factory posted the results. If I can recall its still on their web site.
There are two different tests. The Alberta Research Council test to which I refer and the "Cost Comparison Summary" to which you refer. Of the two, the CCS to me is suspect. It doens't even name the competing spa although another forum member told me it was a Sundance.
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You bought an Arctic based on the results of said test and your lenghty investigation, the last thing you want to do is admit that maybe you were blinded by the sales pitch and the tub is truely nothing more than as good as a bunch of others for more money. And noisier than most.
Actually, I wet tested about 8 other models/brands before deciding that Arctic fit the best and was the most comfortable. In fact, I had made it a personal mission to find something at least the equivalent and could not. Arcitc by far had the best feel to its therapy seat vs all others, in my opinion. Aside from HS Motomassage, which I did not care for, most company's solution for a therapy seat is cluster of directional jets, sometimes with a few spinners tossed in. With a seat full of 5" rotating jets, the Arctic seat actually works the muscles over a very large area instead of needling you. That is what sold me. So the conclusion I drew after wet testing against the competition was that for me, it was better.
I didn't find their pricing out of line with HS, Sundance or Master and none of those performed as well in the wet test. In fact, the second best wet test I had was Jacuzzi which was priced somewhat lower than Arctic. But in the end, we bought the best wet test. The lengthy investigation allowed me in good faith to purchase from a company about which I knew very little.
I, as a consumer, am the ultimate skeptic/cynic and ignore sales pitches probably more so than most. I really could care less about the test or its results from a purchasing perspective. To me it's like cars within 0.1 second in a 0-60 test and one claiming superiority. But they do get to make that claim and I still maintain from what I've seen in this industry, that is what drive people nuts.
By the way, you and I are not all that uncommon. I did work in procurement for about 5 years, but in the chemical industry (several years ago.)
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Lets not do this again Rex...it gets tiring. You are allowed your opinion of the test and it's legitimacy
Let me translate that for you. I don't have anything tangible regarding those "bunches of data" so I can't post it.
80 percent of the heat loss is from the top on all tubs and to give one brand a 60 percent advantage in this area and then to claim superiority over other brands because of these test results and not stating it in the test, crocked!! Plain and simple. Nothing more than a sales slight of hand, yes! All brands have upgraded covers available. And in Northern Minnesota it is standered on almost all brands to get an upgrade cover. I can explain it to you again why I feel it is unfair but apperantly the two of us will never agree so what's the point?One question, what would the test results have showed if all the covers were equal on top where 80 percent of the heat loss is? Remember I am not a fan of Hot Springs. Where would the brand that came out on top in the test be then? Speculate for me.
As the Arctic debate raged on other forums, there were those who questioned that the extra foam would even add any significant useful R value to the cover. Personally, I am not an insulation engineer, so I can't answer if one extra inch or inch and a half would bring everyone else up to or exceed Arctic's level. ( I could guess it would not). The test told me there are good and not so good methods to both. Sundance is full foam and it trailed HS by a significant margin as did Cal. Arctic's own Coyote trailed Arctic.
As for the test, Alberta, a Canadian company asked Arctic, a Canadian company for Hot Tubs to test for what appeared to be an energy research project. ARC is "down the block" from Arctic and my guess is they went to them for advice on who to test. Notice they tested some decent names. HS, Sundance, Beachcomber etc. Alberta bought the tubs with their own money, probably in Canada. If it's so routine to sell upgraded covers (at an additional cost), I would certainly think dealers in Canada would push the same if MN dealers do. It's every bit as cold in Canada as MN. Again, it was an energy research test that happened to reveal differences among spas, not FF/TP.
Again Rex you are allowed to view these "independent" test results however you feel will help you to make your decision. I on the other hand feel they are nothing more than a sales pitch with some shaded results that have skewed the whole thing to favor the manufacurer that is "paying" for it's independency.
I think the problem you have is it can be an effective sales pitch and is so because there is tangible data with it. I'm not a dealer so in some regards, I could care less. As a consumer I find the whole industry dynamic quite interesting. The same argument you make for why the test is unfair also makes another sales point for Arctic and that is they supply a better cover standard. Trust me it's not why I chose Arctic. An average consumer is going to find it much easier to point to numbers <5" - 4" taper> vs others, or read the ARC report, than listen to a competing sales person whine about why the test is unfair. That is the resentment I read into some of the anti-Arctic posts.
Alot of questions, Please help
in Portable Hot Tubs & Spas
Posted
If you're open to suggestions, perhaps you might like one of Arctic's designs. They have a dealer in Sacramento. Galleria Billiards and Spas is the place. For Arctic, frame is irrelevant as the shell will fully support the water without a frame. But as a side note, spas have been successfully manufactured with both wood and metal frames so regardless of the brand, I would put that far down on your list. I would focus on trying to wet test a few and let that be your guide. By wet testing several brands/models, you will find a spa in which you fit well and whose jets feel "right" to you. If you are considering a lounge, a wet test becomes more important and these often fit a narrow range of people or the design causes excessive floating. If you are wondering, I own the Tundra.