TinyBubbles

Hi Richard. That post was 13 days into my bleach usage. I was operating under the assumption that I was ok getting the FC reading of 3-5 15 minutes after adding the bleach and that I did not need a residual. I think it was waterbear that posted somewhere about needing a higher residual even with N2 and was in the camp that didn't think it was needed. I changed my mind about needing the residual after my water went south. I have always tested the FC, I've never guessed that I added enough. In fact, I'm an "over-tester" and use test strips and a test kit. No matter which sanitizer I'm using, I've always gone for the 3-5 ppm FC after adding the product. I was bumping it up at the end with bleach once I realized how quickly I was losing my residual. I've always tested 24 hours later and just assumed it had only recently disappeared. I tried dichlor to discover if it was an increased demand, but it wasn't. I really need to refill my tub and start over with dichlor to make more accurate comparisons, but it's just too soon. When you mention a high level or ammonia/urea and chlorine combining with it, wouldn't this show up as CC? I've never had an issue with CC, I've always assumed it was my ozonator doing it's job. As far as the instant demand, why would it use up bleach but not dichlor? I experimented with both and only lost bleach, not dichlor. Like I said, my next refill should help answer alot of questions. At this point, I don't know if high CYA levels from 3 months of using dichlor will cause problems. So far, no sensitivity with adding a little bit of mps 24 hours before soaking. I'm only adding 1/2 tsp at this point. I'm not really interested in a residual of MPS. Originally I wondered if it could boost my bleach somehow. That led me to wonder if it would boost my dichlor. Sometimes I wonder if I wonder too much!

If you've been away from your spa and came back to find it without sanitizer, you might have killed something in the water when you added the chlorine. You could try a clarifier to see if it would filter it out of the water so it would clear up again.

The problem I have with bleach is that no matter how much I added I could not acheive a FC residual in my spa. I dosed it up to 20ppm and a few hours later, nothing. So weak or strong, the bleach will not last. I work full time and have a family, I don't want to test my water every few hours and add bleach. I agree completely that you need a FC residual, I challenge someone to prove that can be achieved with bleach, unless you add it several times a day. I ran my spa for about 6-7 weeks with no FC residual while using bleach and it turned into a cesspool. Before that, I thought it would be ok to zap things after soaking and then leave the water alone until the next day when we soaked. Apparently, things were multiplying in there the whole time. With dichlor, even with a low cya level, it's been easy to maintain a FC residual. I believe the reason most people don't like soaking in a spa with a high chlorine level is the hot water. It opens up our pores and makes sanitizer more irritating. Obviously, there are many people without skin sensitivities that are ok to add their sanitizer before soaking. I had a problem with MPS so I wasn't using it. From reading posts, it became clear that it's very beneficial. I experimented this weekend, with throwing in a little mps after a soak and a couple minutes later adding dichlor. WOW. When I added the dose of dichlor I usually use to hit the 3-5 ppm FC mark, it went all the way up to atleast 10ppm, maybe higher. Tried the same thing with bleach isntead of dichlor, the bleach still disappeared. Apparently, just a small amount of MPS is a fast and powerful oxidizer. It seems that by the time the dichlor is added, there isn't much for it to do. So far, I haven't had any reaction to the small amount of MPS added 24 before soaking. Now I'm curious about the product that was a mps/dichlor combo that a friend of mine had suggested right after I purchased my spa. Seems like that would make sense. Oh, as far as PH is concerned. I can't wait to do another refill. With my first fill, using strictly dichlor, my PH never went up. 2nd fill with bleach, it went up and stayed up. I'm assuming next time I fill and use dichlor, my PH will stay low again. We'll see. While adjusting PH might not be rocket science, I have no desire to constantly adjust one more thing in my spa. Plus, it's adding more chemicals to the spa and I'd rather not do that. I think I've mentioned before, I want the easiest route to healthy water. I tried bleach thinking it could be the answer. It wasn't. I'm back to dichlor. "The alkalinity of the sodium hypochlorite solution also causes the precipitation of minerals such as calcium carbonate, so that the shock chlorination is often accompanied by a clogging effect. The precipitate also preserves bacteria, making this practice somewhat less effective." I found this quote someone disturbing about the use of bleach to disenfect water, especially in a hot tub where we don't want things building up in the lines, jets or equipment. In addition, I found this quote "Hot water increases the activity of the bleach, owing to the thermal decomposition of hypochlorite which ultimately generates environmentally-undesirable chlorate." If heat decomposes bleach, why am I using is in a hot tub? I found this in another article "What happens to the pH value when sodium hypochlorite is added to water? Due to the presence of caustic soda in sodium hypo chlorite, the pH of the water is increased." And this:"Bleach cannot be combined with acids. When bleach comes in contact with acids the hypochlorite becomes instable". This led me to believe I can't be successful keeping bleach around in spa water with a correct ph. Then there is this quote: "When it is added to water, sodium hypochlorite increases the pH value. It is better to use chlorine as a disinfectant and an oxidizer." I haven't one thing that suggests that bleach and hot tubs are a good match. Clearly, bleach is an effective sanitizer, but that doesn't mean it's suited for this application. Which is probably why nobody markets a liquid chlorine product for use in spas.

We ran into the same situation. We had one slot open at the bottom of our panel, but needed two. We had an outlet in the garage that was dedicated for a chest freezer. Since we haven't had a freezer out there in years, we just did away with it and moved something up to it's place, which freed up a much needed space at the bottom.

Richard, trust me, I don't think you have any kind of agenda or are trying to push anything. In fact, if I did, I wouldn't weigh in with my experience. I figured you would be interested in my information. I don't have an agenda either, other than an EASY water care program. It's interesting to hear David's experience and it's comforting. I'm not the only one that rapidly loses my FC residual when using bleach. As far as Chris' experience, I tend to think the MPS added after soaking to oxidize everything is the reason he maintains a FC residual after adding 12% sodium hypochlorite the next morning. What do you think? I'm just not willing to add things twice a day, but it sounds like it works. David's post brings up a whole different issue.....do you need a FC residual in a spa? I originally assumed that you did not, but after reading this forum the majority of people feel that you do. Also, I had my water get very cloudy and smelly about a week ago and figured it's because of running the spa with no residual. I will try to do some testing with dichlor and bleach over the weekends. I have a long commute and it's just too much for me to do during the work week. I know in the past I've tested about 15 minutes after adding the bleach and I had a sufficient FC reading. I believe it's always been maintaining it's that's the issue. I did get to a point where adding the same amount of bleach did not result in the same FC level so I bought a new bottle of bleach to see if this would make a difference. It did for awhile and then the levels fell off again. That's when I put in the amount of dichlor I used to use and I had a FC residual of 2 24 hours later. Richard, could it be that bleach is a great sanitizer but it's rapidly used up oxidizing in a spa?

I've read alot of people say that algae isn't a problem in spas. Hot tubs are not used only in the dark. We use ours on the weekends with bright sunlight and in the evenings before the sun has set. From what I understand, algae thrives in warm water. So, why do people say no algae in spas. Does algae require more than 6 to 8 hours of sunlight a week to grow?

Hi Richard. I shared your thoughts about the cya level, so I have previously raised mine all the way to 80, but it hasn't helped. The bleach still won't stay around. I think I mentioned earlier that I went away for 5 days with dichlor and came home to a residual, but I can't maintain one for even half a day with bleach. I've done some digging on the net and discovered that bleach is very unstable and by the time we get it off the shelf, it's already lost part of it's potency. Combine this with constantly opening the container for daily use and it's potency is being further weakened. I read that you have to increase your dosage over time to counteract this effect, but that's too much trouble for me. Maybe that's why it's used more in pools, entire gallons are poured in at once. Also, liquid chlorine, sold in pool supply stores, is more concentrated than household bleach which starts out at only 6% available chlorine, opposed to 62% available chlorine from dichlor. I read that heat causes bleach to decompose, especially when you reach temps of 104, which is common in spa use. Additionally, I read that copper, nickel and other metals rapidly degrade sodium hypochlorite (bleach). I use N2 in my spa, so this could be a contributing factor. I'm considering now, that N2 and bleach might be incompatible. It seems like a stable form of chlorine is much more important in a spa than a pool, which makes sense due to higher temps, higher aeration and a larger demand on the sanitizer. In regards to the ph, I never had a problem keeping the ph locked in when using dichlor. I read that bleach becomes very unstable when mixed with acids, so adding products to the spa to lower the ph sounds counter-productive. I don't want to leave the ph high, because everything I read says that chlorine is very ineffective as a sanitizer at high ph levels. Everything I can find says that ozone will not effect water's ph. I found articles stating that because bleach contains caustic soda, it will raise the ph level when added to water. So, I'm down to this.....bleach is clearly an effective sanitizer, but I don't think it's the best alternative for spas. I definately wanted to try bleach, it's inexpensive and sounded fairly simple. In the long run, it seems it's actually more work for me to maintain my water with it's use. It seems like spas need a stabilized form of chlorine, but it's a catch 22 because that stabilizer can decrease it's effectiveness. While we may not lose our chlorine to the sun like pools, we are losing it to many other factors. That being said, I know there are people here using bleach. I'm curious what is the longest length of time someone has been running their spa with bleach and do they use a mineral cartridge?

Poolyeti, I'm not sure if you are crazy. Do you speak in a Brittish accent like Britney Spears? I want to keep a very low residual, but I feel that something should be there. Combine my rapid chlorine loss with the use of bleach and the high ph, and there is not much there to disinfect. I haven't found any information yet that suggests leaving your spa with no residual sanitizer. But, if you are doing it and it's working, then that's good information to have. When I was using dichlor, I could easily keep a slight chlorine residual. Not enough to dry out skin or be irritating. There is no way I would be able to go on vacation and leave the spa unattened while using bleach. I was able to do it successfully with dichlor. Nate, it's good to know that I'm not the only one with no chlorine residual using bleach. I'm just not willing to add it before I soak, because I do not want to soak when levels are that high. I have kept my TA low, which is why I am so baffled. I had read chemgeeks suggestions on this, before I switched over to bleach. My TA is between 60-80 with a test kit. I really liked the theory of bleach, but right now it's looking better on paper than in reality. Part of me keeps saying that there is a reason that spa manufacturers and dealers recommend dichlor instead of bleach/liquid chlorine. As far as shocking, I've done some research and everything I read suggests that MPS is much more effective at this than chlorine. Just remember, that when shocking with MPS it will show up as cc, unless you have a kit that gives you the option of cancelling it out.

Ok, so I'm at the 2 month point with bleach. I have decided to switch back to dichlor. I am tired of fighting the ph battle. My ph stays so high, that I am sick of adding ph down. I knew bleach had a ph of 13, but I didn't think a few ounces a day would make such a big difference. My other problem is trying to maintain a chlorine residual. I simply can not do this with bleach. When I use dichlor, it's still there the next day. I know there are alot of people here that use bleach and I'm curious why they don't report problems with high ph. Do the rest of you have any problem maintaining a chlorine residual? I'm assuming that the high temps. are effecting the bleach. Anyone have any suggestions to change my mind before I make the switch?

Hi Cindy, I was like you. If I wore a suit in the tub, spots. No suit, no spots. It's so odd. The dr. says that the suit keeps the water in contact with your skin longer, but that doesn't make any sense to me. Maybe in a pool, where you lounge by the pool in a wet suit. That's not the case with the spa. My suit would come off as soon as I was out of the spa. There has to be a logical explanation, but I can't figure it out. I really don't think you need to drain it. If you've shocked it and then maintained good sanitizer levels, you are probably ok.

Hi, I, also, had a small nicotine colored area in my spa. My spa is a pretty pearl color. It was directly around the jet for the ozonator. I tried wiping it off with water in the spa, no luck. When I initially filled the tub I did not use the fastgloss product that was recommended. When I drained and refilled the spa, the spot came right off with the use of the fastgloss and hasn't come back. Hope that helps.

September 2007 Pool and Spa News has the article I was refering to. I found the reference in an old thread, but no link. I don't think we have issues from that far back, but I'm looking.

Industry Uniting to Address California Hot Tub Regulations APSP has been working behind the scenes with extremely dedicated individuals from many prominent spa manufacturers to keep California from enforcing their regulation which -- as interpreted right now -- would be a devastating blow to any manufacturer selling hot tubs in California. Thanks to the generosity and forward thinking of the following companies, $43,000 of the required $75,000 has been pledged. A.O. Smith Aqua Quip Dimension One Emerson Electric Free Flow Spas Gecko L.A. Spas Marquis MAXX/Coleman Pent Air Vita Spas Waterway Plastics Watkins Manufacturing It is also necessary to give additional thanks to the following companies who currently serve on the APSP CEC Spa Advisory Council. Most of these companies have been working behind the scenes for nearly two years with PG&E. Alan Smith Pool Plastering Balboa Columbia Dimension One Gecko MAAX/Coleman Marquis L.A Spas Newport Controls Softub SPEC Sundance ThermoSpas Watkins

As Bob would say, Baby steps. Let it start out the way it is. The data should show the CEC the disparity between spas like Master and Hydro Spa versus D1 and Hot Spring and I hope the CEC will crack down and other states will follow. I was really suprised to see how low the R values were for D1 spas. Shocked to see they were lower than those for Masterspa. It looked like the watts used were less for D1, however. I was pleasantly suprised to see Artesians numbers right there with Hot Springs. Does anyone know who hydropool is? Chris, I understand exactly what you are saying now. You want proof that they submitted spas for testing. I remember an article awhile back that, I thought, showed companies that had gone through testing. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Circulation pumps should be very quiet. If the cover is on and we can't see the bubbles, we have to put an ear to the cabinet or place our hand on it, to tell that it's running. In many spas with circulation pumps, the filter cycles controls the ozonator. With my spa, I have a programmable circulation pump. My filter cycles turn it on and off. I run my circulation pump 6 hours, twice a day. My bigger pumps do not come on, except to purge the lines. At 12 hours a day, with only a circulation pump, my spa water stays crystal clear. Spas with or without circulation pumps operate very differently. If you have an older spa without one, it's hard to compare it to a newer spa that has one. I wouldn't worry too much until you wet test. Chances are, that alone will make up your mind. If you've already owned a spa, you probably know exactly what you want. Good Luck.

Exactly, the circ pump runs 24/7 taking the place of the filtering the main pump. Er, there's still a filter cycle, but you can set it to anything you want. Or turn it off entirely, I suppose. I don't think the circ pump will give you enough filtration all by itself, but as you say, much cheaper to run than the big pump over the long haul. Huh? On my spa the circulation pump is the only one that filters the spa. Two time a day the bigger pumps come on for around 2 minutes only to purge the system, that's it. The circulation pump does give enough filtration and it is energy efficient.

This article shows that Sundance is one of the companies working to prevent California from enforcing their regulations. Not working with them to make their spas complaint.

Oh, nevermind. I went to their website. Dur. # of people in the spa. Chris, go here: http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/index.html Then go to the appliance database, pool products, portable electric spas. It will show you the published list of spas that have been approved (passed). As of the last update, there are no Sundance spa that have been approved.

Anyone? I think my dealer suggested 6 months. I know people that have the same filter for 2 years. I'm planning on watching mine. I'm assuming I'll be able to tell when the've degraded enough to be replaced. I've heard that if they sink even after cleaning, they should be replaced.

I think it's good news that when you went away for a few days, your itch went away. I don't think that hot tub itch would have cleared up that soon. Sounds more like a sensitivity. Do you wear a suit in the spa? Do you get the itch anywhere in particular? If I wore a suit in the spa, I always got a few bumps under it. No suit, no bumps.

Ok, some things are obvious, but I'm confused on the #, then the true. Could you explain this. Thanks.

There are so many things that could be going on. We don't even know if the hot tub is responsible. The only thing you can do is go to an allergist and get skin tested. Make sure you allergist has knowledge of everything you've used in your spa, including things to balance the water. I would think that if you truely have the "hot tub itch" then you'd have to disinfect bathing suits worn in spa, towels used to dry off, filters, everything. Maybe even throw them away. P.S. I don't see where she took medical advice from a spa dealer. Unless he's the one that prescribed the antibiotics. The dealer was offering her advice on using bromine instead of chlorine and showering after use. I wonder if he charged a co-pay?

How about turning the waterfall valve to turn it off and it completely falling out of the hole leaving the knob in your hand. The pipe falls down into the hot tub and all you hear is water gushing out of it into the guts of the hot tub..... Then having to take the skirt apart in the -16 C windy cold while kneeling in slush from the spilled water trying to put the pipe back together.... That ruins the mood quite fast............ Poor Joey. Did this happen to your new spa that you are having the other problems with?

Joey, if you are on the level, and I'm assuming you are.....why don't you return that spa? It sounds like a total lemon. I question the honesty of the person you bought the spa from on ebay. If your spa is wired for 220 volts then 6 hours to rise 12 degrees is unacceptable. Clearly, there is a glitch. Add to that your problems with the circulation pump being plumbed wrong and there is, obviously, something majorly wrong with that spa. Is this guy building them in his basement and passing them off as a brand name spa? Is he ordering the basic spa from the manufacturer and tweaking it himself to charge more money? Refurbishing spas and he doesn't know what he's doing? You mentioned about a week ago that a tech was coming out to look at it, what was the verdict? What state do you live in?

North Georgia. We are with a local coop and our rates start at 4 cents in the winter and then go to 2 cents. Technically, it's 4.something and 2.something, so I'm rounding.