ClayC
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Posts posted by ClayC
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Where am I supposed to click?
He must of clipped and pasted from his spaspecialist (Haven spa) website
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Hey Clay - What was the $ quote you got on the Sundance Cameo? Sorry if it's already in your message somewhere, I got tired of reading about how hot tubs suck.
The Cameo was selling for $9763 or $9298 Cash price
With
Freight (regularly $200)
Synthetic Cabinet (regularly $200)
Starter Chemical Kit (regularly $80)
CD Ozonator (regularly $400)
Cover Assist (regularly $269)
Cover (regularly $400)
30" Synthetic Steps (regularly $125)
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Thank you, ClayC, I appreciate the compliment. Believe me, I do have an agenda to promote what I believe to be the best spa made. I sure don't try to hide that!
But I don't believe in bashing the competition. That is poor salesmanship and is best left to the bottom feeders that abound in this (and every other) industry.To answer your questions:
Pricing- those seem to be very competitive. They are about $600-800 less than what you would pay for the same thing here in East Texas. I seriously doubt you could find better pricing on those 2 spas.
Vista or Envoy- I actually prefer the less expensive Envoy and here is why. In the Vista, the captain's chair in the corner is set at an angle. The very powerful JetStream foot jet actually pushes my feet and body sideways (and I weigh 250 lbs). I find it somewhat annoying. The Envoy's captains chair has the foot jet facing straight on. I find this to be much more comfortable. It's a small thing but it might make a huge difference in your spa enjoyment.
What do you get for the $900 price difference? I more seat and a 2" deeper spa. In my opinion, not worth it. Unless you want the extra seat, I would get the Envoy. It outsells the Vista 7 to 1 in my store.
Be sure and try them both and see which one fits YOU the best. I wish you well in your endeavor!
Terminator
To answer your new questions (as well as one of your first ones I overlooked):
Best time to buy? Based upon the price you quoted me, I would say now. Those are excellent prices.
Dirty Filters- The Tri-X Filters do a great job. Since they do a great job, they get extremely dirty (huh, imagine that, dirt in the filters instead of your pump).
No problem, put them in the dishwasher once or twice a month and you're good to go.Water Flow- If the filters become too clogged to allow water to pass, the spa will shut itself off and the red and green lights on the front control panel will flash. That way you will definitely know that the filters need cleaning.
Pump Longevity- We have sold HotSpring Spas for 20 years. We have had to replace a total of 8 (EIGHT) jet pumps during that entire time. Chas (another HS dealer on this forum) stated on another board he has had to replace 6 jet pumps in 20 years and another 9 year HS dealer stated he had replaced 3. I can safely say that you will probably never have to worry about replacing your jet pumps should you get a HS.
Terminator
Hey Terminator,
Went to wet test the Envoy at the dealer that quoted it for $9,100 but the only had the Vista to test. So I tested the Vista, dealer was telling me the jet pressure and feel etc. would be the same as the Enoy. Is this true?
Then I left there and tried the Caldera Geneva Utopia spa at another dealer. Did not feel it was of the same quality as the Hot Springs.
So I thought I would go up the road further to another Hot Spring dealer and they had the Envoy but I had to "dry test it" the Captain's seat did seem a little nicer (hard to tell with no water). This place gave me a quote that put the other to shame. A package including CD ozone, cover removal system, startup kit and steps for $7,9995. This is over a $1,000 difference. They also had the Coleman 481 for $7,495 but have not heard alot about them. Both Hot Spring dealers have been around for over 15 years and are in good standings with BBB. Think I may go with the Envoy for $7,995 Should I insist on wet testing the Envoy before I buy or just use the Vista testing as a gauge?
Clay
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Right now I am torn between the Hot Spring's Envoy and Caldera's Geneva.
Which one is cheaper to maintain? The Envoy has 5 filters that need repaceing every 3-5 years, the Geneva 1 that needs replacing every 6 months to a year. With the price of utilities going up, Do they both cost about the same in electric to heat? I would be getting the Corona Discharge Ozone, So would they be about the same $ in chemicals? Should I use Bromine or Clorine? Are there any other expenses I should consider? Does anybody think I should go with one model vs the other?
Clay
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Send me one right away! In fact, can you fax it?
While you're at it, fax me two please.
:-)
Fax me one too!
I'll fax you back with my dollar
Thanks
I am going to be on the road, delivering spas for a while, and only able to share intermittently.
Sounds like sales are going so well even the owner is delivering spas....
Or is it a one man operation?
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I am trying to get consumers to stop being lambs brought to the slaughter, by BS sales pitches. If you don't what to read my posts, then do what I do and go to your presets and put a block on it. That simple. But I'll bet you cannot stop reading it. If you bought a spa already, then most likely, unless you bought one that is on my "good list", you are not going to want to read what I have to say.
I'm sorry Jim but I must have missed your "good list". You know I have to ask. What Spas are on your "good list"?
Clay
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Has anyone heard of or dealt with Elite Spas by MAXX? The salesman told me that Elite Spas are made by the same people who make Coleman Spas and that they are basically the same. I've heard of Coleman, but not Elite. I'm having trouble finding any impartial information. Can anyone help?
Is this the spa that Cosco is selling? See forum called Costco Platinum elite spa
Clay
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Clay,
You are looking at two very good tubs. I am fairly new to Caldera, but the very first one I wet tested happened to be the Geneva, here are my thoughts on the wet test.
I think the biggest difference is the Moto Massage jet in the Envoy. I love it and miss it in the Caldera. But that is so very subjective, you will have to decide with a wet test. The Geneva has far more powerful jets - so strong in fact that to me they hurt. I ran the diverters at half and it was great! In fact, the Caldera diverters are quieter than the HotSpring. Hope that changes soon...
If I got a Geneva I would change out the small Euro Jets for the Euro Pulse ones which come in the hand/wrist locations.
Some dealers don't even know that is possible, but it is and I include ten of the small spinners when I sell one. We put them in on delivery, showing the owners how to swap them out themselves in case they want to move them around or purchase more later. This can make all the difference in a wet test, so be sure to ask about it.
I like the Caldera Versassage jets which can be easily switched from straigh to rotary by just giving the nozzle a flick. Great idea. I think they are made by HydroAir, and you can also shut off the waterflow and this adds to the pressure of the remaining jets - not that this tub needs any help in that regard.
I don't happen to fit under the shoulder jets in the Ecstaseat, so be sure to wet test that one - or at the very least dry sit to be sure you are the right size for the seat. I wish I did fit it, because it would be just right as far as jet placement. My daughter fit just right, but my son, my wife and I are all too tall for it.
I like the fountains in both spas. They are very different - the Caldera seems like it was just added on to the skimmer - and in fact it was. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea: it puts the waterfall closer to the center of the tub so you get less splashing on the shell. We all love the little colored spotlights in the filter 'cave,' but we also like the Bella Fontanna on the HS. Especially the way the light travels through the water.
You mentioned lower back problems - me too BTW - and the whirlpool jet is close to a nerve block! You can sit in front of it, or sort of 'hover' over the Euphoia jet (similar jet mounted up from the floor) BUT you had better be haning on. Those two are E ticket rides, if that means anything anymore.
I need to go so I may add more later, but one other item I wanted to mention: The Geneva comes equipped with the ozone, color changing lights on the outside (which synch with the ones in the grab bar, tub and waterfall inside). These items would cost more on the HS - and the HS outside lights stay blue. So if you like these features, be sure to remember that you will have to add them to the HS price. On the other hand, if you don't really care about these features, keep in mind that HS will not be automatically charging you for them...
I'm sick, so I hope I have made a bit of sense. Quality is about the same on both makes. The Caldera is fiberglas backed wheras the HS is not. The foam insulation is not identical as a result, but the heat-keeping ability seems to be just the same. Both covers are identical, and the control systems are as well. The circ pump in the Caldera is larger, and the ozone in the HS is better.
Chas,
Hope you are feeling better.....
Just to get am idea on cost...
How much does the Utopia Geneva run? I got a guote for around $9,200 for the Envoy and $9,700 for the Cameo. Is it in the same price bracket? I read the filters can be washed and re-used several times, what is the going price for the filters and how often should they be replaced?
Clay
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Clay,
You are looking at two very good tubs. I am fairly new to Caldera, but the very first one I wet tested happened to be the Geneva, here are my thoughts on the wet test.
I think the biggest difference is the Moto Massage jet in the Envoy. I love it and miss it in the Caldera. But that is so very subjective, you will have to decide with a wet test. The Geneva has far more powerful jets - so strong in fact that to me they hurt. I ran the diverters at half and it was great! In fact, the Caldera diverters are quieter than the HotSpring. Hope that changes soon...
If I got a Geneva I would change out the small Euro Jets for the Euro Pulse ones which come in the hand/wrist locations.
Some dealers don't even know that is possible, but it is and I include ten of the small spinners when I sell one. We put them in on delivery, showing the owners how to swap them out themselves in case they want to move them around or purchase more later. This can make all the difference in a wet test, so be sure to ask about it.
I like the Caldera Versassage jets which can be easily switched from straigh to rotary by just giving the nozzle a flick. Great idea. I think they are made by HydroAir, and you can also shut off the waterflow and this adds to the pressure of the remaining jets - not that this tub needs any help in that regard.
I don't happen to fit under the shoulder jets in the Ecstaseat, so be sure to wet test that one - or at the very least dry sit to be sure you are the right size for the seat. I wish I did fit it, because it would be just right as far as jet placement. My daughter fit just right, but my son, my wife and I are all too tall for it.
I like the fountains in both spas. They are very different - the Caldera seems like it was just added on to the skimmer - and in fact it was. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea: it puts the waterfall closer to the center of the tub so you get less splashing on the shell. We all love the little colored spotlights in the filter 'cave,' but we also like the Bella Fontanna on the HS. Especially the way the light travels through the water.
You mentioned lower back problems - me too BTW - and the whirlpool jet is close to a nerve block! You can sit in front of it, or sort of 'hover' over the Euphoia jet (similar jet mounted up from the floor) BUT you had better be haning on. Those two are E ticket rides, if that means anything anymore.
I need to go so I may add more later, but one other item I wanted to mention: The Geneva comes equipped with the ozone, color changing lights on the outside (which synch with the ones in the grab bar, tub and waterfall inside). These items would cost more on the HS - and the HS outside lights stay blue. So if you like these features, be sure to remember that you will have to add them to the HS price. On the other hand, if you don't really care about these features, keep in mind that HS will not be automatically charging you for them...
I'm sick, so I hope I have made a bit of sense. Quality is about the same on both makes. The Caldera is fiberglas backed wheras the HS is not. The foam insulation is not identical as a result, but the heat-keeping ability seems to be just the same. Both covers are identical, and the control systems are as well. The circ pump in the Caldera is larger, and the ozone in the HS is better.
Thanks Chas,
I'll diffently have to check the shoulder jets, I'm 6'-0" and the wife is 5'-9".
Clay
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In the market for a new spa. I am down to the Hot Springs Envoy and the Dimension 1 Californian. Cost is nearly the same for both.
What I like best about Hot Springs
1) No-bypass filtration
2) strong dealer presence and support
3) look and feel is more elegant
What I like best about the Dimension 1 spas
1) more jets and better hydro -therapy
2) ultralife shell
Any other input and considerations the group can give me before I make the plunge?
Thanks.
The Dimension does not offer a Corona Discharge Ozone System.
The Hot Springs also has dishwashable, reusable filters.
Clay
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I think you are laboring under a misconception, and I would be glad to clear it up if I can.
First, let's get the name right. It's the Tri-X filter. It would amaze some of the readers how vehemently you have responded in the past to cute little insult-names that others have tried to use regarding YOUR product or YOUR name, so I would politely ask you to keep this at an adult level.
Next, the math. Each one of the Tri-X filters are around 65 square feet of surface area. They are about 11 inches tall, so if you spread one out it would have to be a little over 65 feet long. They have designed a ceramic-like material which allows for much deeper pleats - but is stiff enough to keep those pleats open. They put four on the pumps in most models, which is 65*4=260. Then they add one to the circ pump for a total of around 325. Those numbers may not be exact, but they are very close - and the system works in a manner which reflects it.
Hey Chas,
I see you sell both Watkins brands. Comparing the Caldera's Geneva to Hot Spring's Envoy. Which do you feel has a more powerful jets. The HS has (2) 2HP Pump Motors and the Caldera has (2) 2 1/2HP. I am looking for a powerful spa (lower back problems). Do you recommend one over the other? They both seem to be great spas but very different in many ways (aroma ther., air jets, filtration systems) Any Input?
Thanks,
Clay
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Clay, I'm interested if you've made a decision or ruled any out in your spa purchase? I'm still deciding, but want desperately to get back in a tub, any observations in the last spa search days? Wet tests? etc...
Veronica,
I'm still trying to weed through all the BS and back stabing. I am very close to buying the Envoy by Hot Springs. I like the idea of washable filters that last for years (a true $ saver). But I think it all comes down to a "Wet Test" from local dealers. I think a local dealer is a key point (for warranty, parts etc.). With all the trouble you had, I see buying something over ther net or without a wet test could possibly become a big mistake and a true nightmare. I've already talked to local Hot Springs and Sundance dealers and plan on taking a wet test in both units (hopefully about the same time, to compare). I also plan on visting a couple other dealers. There is Home show in the area this weekend and if I get a chance I may go. There is a local dealer there that sells Caldera Spas (owned by the Watkins same company that makes Hot Springs). Whatwever you do just don't take one "Wet Test" with just one dealer, take several with different dealers. You need a basis to compare to. If you need to re-test then do it. We the comsumer's sould take all the time we need to decide. If a salesperson trys to push a spa down your throat, maybe you should not buy from them. Take your time, visit the manufacturer's sites, have questions post them in forums like this, do the research... the web is a great thing.
Read this guide, I found it very helpful.
http://www.spabuyingguide.com/spa-buying-g...ing%20Guide.pdf
Let me know if you find anything.
Clay
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I'm sorry for my previous post, I thought the he may have been in violation of the following (quoted from the forum rules)
For obvious competitive reasons, individuals who operate forums or bulletin boards that compete with poolspaforum.com are not eligible to enroll. You agree to not leave signatures, URLs or text including blatant sales messages, solicitations, advertisements, derogatory comments about members, or self-promotion of any form encouraging members to visit a particular website or store. Poolspaforum.com editors will tend to error on the side of caution and delete questionable posts.
Sorry
Me Bad
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ClayC,
Is this the same person that sent me an email on 9/30/05, giving me links for the purchase of his spas. I thought was againest forum rules?
Clay
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Tell me any spa that doesn't filter the water?
Tell me what other spa that does not filter better than a Hot Spring? Any brand?
I have been in this industry a long time, and I have done warranty work on 15 different brands, as
well as run a fix em all service center, and most all of the other brands, except for softub, filter better, move water faster to the filter and more volume per day, than Hot Spring.
This is that "implication" and "inference" junk that sales people use.
I can remember a Hot Spring sales person saying to a consumer: "I don't want my kids soaking in that stuff".
My response was: "Then you need to put them in a spa that filters better."
Here again is the reality of filtering.
A real filter filters from 50 to 10 microns or even smaller on some of the micro filters. A real filter is not a screen. A screen allows a lot of water to pass without filtering it. A real filter has the ability to filter aproximately ONE gallon per minute per square foot of filter fiber. A screen can run a lot more water through because it is not a filter. It is a screen.
The water contains debris.
Filtering is a gradual reduction of particals over time. There is no such thing as "filtering all the water all the time."
As an example for comparison I describe it this way:
Take a buck of dirty mop water.
1/ Take it over to the sink and dip in one cup of dirty water and pour it out.
2/ Take a cup of fresh water and pour it in. Stir in the clean water and mix thoroughly.
3/ Do number one and number two until the water is clean.
The faster you do number 1 and number 2, the faster the water becomes clean.
Keep in mind that the bucket will have "hair, skin, dirt, toenails" in it until it reaches the filter( when you dip out a cup of dirty water). That takes a long time with slow water movement (very few "dips" per minute).
The "implication" of sales people is that an extremely low flow pump does that better than a spa that filters correctly with propulsion of the debris to the fitler. If you want clean water, you must move the water with velocity and power, because otherwise the spa will have "dead spots" where the debirs barely moves at all.
I hope that makes it clear.
In order for the Hot Spring spas to conform to modern safety standards, they need to have two separate filter housings feeding equally to a single pump. The filter housings need to be on separate planes or 3 feet apart. That is the ANSI UL standard.
Jim,
The Hot Springs Envoy Has 325 sq. feet of effective filter area conpared to 75-100 on other spas. So with over 3X the effective filter area allowing for the non-bypass system to filter all the water that is released through the jets (before it gets to the pumps).
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How much do the replacement filters run a piece? (since there are 5)
We sell them for $65 a piece in the north east. We have found that our current customers who have the traditional filters are upgrading to the Tri-ex even though they are twice as expensive.
I thought the Tri-X filters were for "Hot Spring" Spas. Can other Spas from other manufacturer's also use this filter?
Or just Spa's made by Watkins Hot Springs and Caldera? Or just older hot spring models?
Could you buy a Caldera and use this filter?
Clay
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You're welcome ClayC, I'm glad to be of assistance.
Yes, the Tri-X Filters can be cleaned in the dishwasher. Run them through a rinse cycle and DO NOT use soap or you will have bubbles out the wazoo!
The Tri-X Filters have been designed to last 7-10 years and possibly up to 20 years, depending on how often you clean and degrease them with filter cleaner.
We charge $1800 for the SpAudio, I have seen it on the net as low as $1500. The water does not muffle the sound at all, it is crystal clear even with the jets running. Is it worth it? In my opinion, no. You are much better off placing outdoor speakers around the spa. For the money you can get a much nicer set-up.
Terminator
How much do the replacement filters run a piece? (since there are 5)
Clay
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OK, once again, I'll try to make it as simple as possible without all of the jibber jabber. Answer this:
Is it better to filter out hair, skin, dirt, toenails, etc. before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing?
Is it better NOT to filter out hair, skin, dirt, toenails, etc. before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing?
It really is so simple. Even a child could answer this question. Can you?
Terminator
Hey Terminator,
Thanks for all your help so far.
Have a couple Questions....
I read somewhere the Tri-X filters can be cleaned in the dishwasher. How long do the filters last be doing this (for 3 years?) and about how mush is it to replace them?
Also since your in thr biz. How much should it cost for the SpaAudio upgrade? Is it worth it? or does the sound get "drowned out" by the spa jets etc.?
Clay
Hey Terminator,
Thanks for all your help so far.
Have a couple Questions....
I read somewhere the Tri-X filters can be cleaned in the dishwasher. How long do the filters last be doing this (for 3 years?) and about how mush is it to replace them?
Also since your in thr biz. How much should it cost for the SpaAudio upgrade? Is it worth it? or does the sound get "drowned out" by the spa jets etc.?
Clay
Chas you can answer this one too... LOL
Thanks
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I was thinking of getting the Cameo. I understand the filters need to be replaced about every 6 months. Does anybody know about how much the filters cost? It's an operation cost that needs to be considered.
Clay
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Thanks Terminator....
At least your answers seem straight foward and you are not trying to bash other spas and/or people.
Does seem that the Hot Spring Spa line may be the way to go.
I'm sure the pumps etc. would have a longer operating life without the dirt etc.
Now to the price Question
Does 10,000 for the Vista with Corona Discharge and cover removal system
or
9,100 for the Envoy withe the same package seem about right....
Is it worth the entra 900 for the Vista (has 2 "captain seats")?
Do the prices seem a little high?
Sould I try shopping for a better price?
Is there a better time of the year to buy? (do price flex with the seasons?)
Just thought of something else. If for some reason the filters are not inspected enough (like monthly) and the filters become more clugged per say. Does the load on the motor increase because it is trying to suck all the water for the filter? Which would cause to motor to more or less
have premature failure?
Is there some type of sensor (overload switch) that tells the system that the filters a somewhat clogged and shuts down the filtering system.
Or better yet a warning on the temperture panel that tells you the filters need cleaning?
Just an idea that passed through my mind...
Is this in fact a problem with the 100% non bypass system?
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For anyone that is interested in why 100% No-Bypass Filtration is a superior method of filtering the water, here it is, plain and simple. Ask yourself this:
Is it better to filter out hair, dirt, dead skin, toenails, etc. before it enters the spa's pump, heater, and plumbing? Yes or No
Is it better to have bypass valves that allow hair, dirt, dead skin, toenails, etc. into the spa's pump, heater, and plumbing? Yes or No
It really is simple. Some unethical salespeople try to flim flam customers into believing that it is better to suck garbage into your spa's internals than to filter it before it ever gets into the spa's internals.
Again, don't allow yourselves to be victimized by the rantings of online predators. Use your good common sense when making expensive purchases.
Terminator
Thanks Terminator....
At least your answers seem straight foward and you are not trying to bash other spas and/or people.
Does seem that the Hot Spring Spa line may be the way to go.
I'm sure the pumps etc. would have a longer operating life without the dirt etc.
Now to the price Question
Does 10,000 for the Vista with Corona Discharge and cover removal system
or
9,100 for the Envoy withe the same package seem about right....
Is it worth the entra 900 for the Vista (has 2 "captain seats")?
Do the prices seem a little high?
Sould I try shopping for a better price?
Is there a better time of the year to buy? (do price flex with the seasons?)
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Hello All,
I think I may have gotten down to a couple Spas I’m interested in. Them being the Envoy by Hot Springs and the Cameo by Sundance. When talking to a local dealer he was telling me that Hot Spring Spas are the only one out there that filters (all 100%) of the water being discharged through the jets. Is this in fact true? And are there and other differences I should consider? By looking at the specs they seem very similar. Does anybody have any experiences with these to which one is better?
Thanks……..
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ONLY 5 spas worth looking at and those are them? LOL, maybe you should throw an IMO in that statement and make it more of what it is, an opinion. Here is how I would put it if I had wanted to give my opinion as to what my top 5 were:
"There are many good spas out there and everyone has their favorites but IMO the top 5 are Sundance, Hot Springs, Marquis, Caldera and D1." Jacuzzi would make my top 10 and Bullforg my top 20 but neither in my top 5 but then again, this is MY list.
I just want people's honest opinions. I appreciate your honesty and it does not matter if eveybody elses opinion does not agree with yours. I'm just looking for places to check for the best spa for my hard earn money. Don't have the money just to throw around, so when I do spend it I want to get the best deal the meets my needs. Thanks......
CLAYC, WHY ARE PEOPLE YELLING AT YOU? DID YOU MAKE SOMEONE MAD OR ARE YOU HEARING IMPAIRED AND I WASN'T AWARE OF IT?
Just kidding, hope your search is going well.
Terminator
Have note yet had a chance to check out the hot spring spas....
Will be checking them out when I get the time... later 2nite
Thanks for your reply..
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Isn't D1 a UV ozone system? (The person specified CD Ozone)
Don't want the UV to much to replace a few years.
SunDance Cameo or Hot Springs Envoy?
in Portable Hot Tubs & Spas
Posted
I live North of Baltimore around the MD/PA line (Mason Dixon) Got a better price in York, PA then in MD.