Bob Sanders

Ah yes... a Minnesota man. We drive there every so often on weekends to do some shopping. I'm in Winnipeg.... the wonderful windy Prairies.

I don't need to see a link for that believe me. I've seen first hand with the hardness test. One test strip from one company sees the water with a TA of 50 while the other sees it as 250. That's one of the reasons I bought a K1001 kit.... to see how accurate the chlorine measurements are on these strips. Thank you for pointing out a more detailed set of Canadian regulations... I was looking for that

Well I surely hope so. That's why the questions do you not get this??

I've lived in this climate for better than 30 years and therefore DO in fact have a bit more experience in this area.

I was going to leave this one alone... but since you brought it up... It's been more than 2 weeks now and the filters are functioning great. No plugging, no excessive back pressure or anything of that nature. I did find that daily back washing was only required in the first week or so. After that I was able to cut it back to every other day. As for taking them out and washing... I've only done it once so far. I've only got the 5 micron filters in at the moment but it's all working well enough so that I may drop down to the 1 micron and see what happens (they're the same CHEAP price of 4$ each as the 5 micron so it's no great loss if they don't go as well)

You don't seem to understand that it is not my knowledge and experience that is being talked about. I've already admitted SEVERAL TIMES NOW that I have very little experience when it comes to discussing things directly related to spas. What I have stated (and you keep ignoring) is that there are MANY who claim to be experienced all saying very different things and the only thing I'm doing here is QUITE LOGICALLY asking why. You and others on this board seem to want me to believe there is some sort of major conspiracy here with all the spa stores in my city and they're all trying to hide the truth from me. Sorry guy... that's just a heck of a stretch. You call a booklet that I was reading from "misinformation" when you haven't even seen it or read it? You say you're experienced (and I have no doubt of that) but what do you say to an EXPERIENCED shop owner who tells me he believes more in electronic methods these days than chemicals. How am I supposed to know which "experienced" person is the one with more experience? You say measuring CC is important. Well how come Health Canada doesn't say that. They clearly mention free chlorine and the fact that one should follow the instructions on the given labels but they say nothing about CC. http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/pubs/pest/_fact-fiche/pool-spa-piscine/index-eng.php Now I am NOT being or trying to be confrontational. I'm merely trying to gain enough info from all sides so that I can make an informed decision.... that's all. I have not frequented ONE shop but rather quite a few.... and it's the same story.... no such detailed kits. I believe you even stated above that they're not often found in the spa shops. Now I'm terribly sorry but I have a real tough time believing that this is some major cover up that has been arranged by all the spa shops in some back room. I suppose it is possible... but the probability of it is another thing entirely. What's more believable (and logical) is that there simply is not a market for such creatures when there are fast test strips for (lazy) spa owners who would rather spend more time IN the spa as opposed to testing it. Shop owners are not interested in getting stuck with expensive expiration dated test kits that don't sell. Well... healthy debate does bring forth new and different ideas from different perspectives... but if the message you're presently trying to send is "just be quiet and nod your head when being spoken to" then yes... feel free to remove my membership.

And here I was thinking the idea was to make sure the hot tub doesn't freeze. No sorry... the idea here to to use what little power you have available to the best of one's ability. That "best" would be to run a heater... not simply to move water from point A to B. That might work for a few hours but over the long haul you've pretty much screwed yourself. Your water temp has dropped at a much faster rate than it would have otherwise and you now have no serious way of getting it back up.

...*sigh*... I believe that it's Chem + WB's point that it's in the pool/spa store's best interest NOT to carry a test kit that allows you to achieve precise results. Sorry but I don't believe that for one single little second. That makes no sense at all. They could just as easily be LOSING money by not carrying the kits while people UNDER TREAT their tubs because of inaccurate numbers. And further more... to believe ALL spa shop owners are dishonest to this degree is TOTALLY ridiculous. In fact I find the suggestion slightly offensive. The people I have been to over the last few months have been nothing less than courteous and honest and don't deserve the kind of blanket statement you throw at them. As stated we live in a supply and demand world. If the public wanted such kits and were deemed to be big sellers then you could be ABSOLUTELY SURE you would find them all over the place.

You seem to missing the point. You're not generating heat by running a pump (not enough to make a difference anyway), you're simply MOVING that heat and in the process, losing it faster.

Well that's my point.... not many do.

NY is pretty warm by comparison to Manitoba climates. I can PROMISE you that a hot tub wouldn't last 3 days with a trouble light heating it at -40. All it would take is 24 hours for me to start gaining serious concern. None the less... I don't plan on getting into a major debate on this. I will however tell you what I would do in such a circumstance. Given the fact that I do know heat and thermodynamics quite well and experience the climates we're speaking of every single year... I would NOT waste precious generator power on running pumps. I would first call hydro and attempt to gain some kind of handle on how long power was going to be down for. If we're talking 3 days then I would most likely DRAIN the pool while there is still enough heat left in the water to keep the lines warm while I blow them out with compressed air. If you wait until the water temp is down to 40 degrees or so before making this decision then good luck getting the water out of the lines before it freezes. Barring that I would run to the hardware store and buy a few bats of fiberglass insulation, and throw them on top along with plastic to keep the wind out. I would disturb the main tub water a LITTLE as possible in an attempt to conserve heat. I would pile up as much snow as I could around the base of the tub (snow is a good insulator) I would then use that precious generator power to run the largest heater it could run to keep the underside warm. I think the LAST thing in the world I would do is fire up the pump in an attempt to use it as a warming mechanism.

Well... as stated, running the pump will surely extend the time needed before additional heat is required. But that heat is not free. It is coming from a mass of water in which you are trying to conserve. As for a trouble light, once again pretty much useless at -40. I'm not sure you appreciate how cold -40 is. Picture having to adjust your rear view mirror several times because your body wieght is not enough to make the usual dent in your seat, then the seat starts warming. Picture a dashboard knob snapping off in you hand because it's so brittle. Picture your car stereo with absolutely no bass because the woofers refuse to move. Try and imagine your car with absolutely no suspension because it's all frozen up. No... sorry... a trouble light isn't going to do squat.

Sorry... don't wish to offend... but no. I've lived in these conditions for better than 30 years and I'm going to tell you right now... things lose heat FAST at -40. In fact running the pump would probably be the WORST thing you could do under power outage conditions at -40. You need to conserve heat as much as possible and that conservation comes in the form of mass. The larger the mass (particularly an undisturbed mass) then the longer the heat will last. Do yourself a little experiment and fill the sink with hot water... put your arm in it. Take note that the water feels quite hot at first but then seems to get a bit cooler after a minute. Shake the arm up in the water and it feels hot again. This is all caused by a thin layer of water immediately surrounding your arm which cools to approximately the temperature of your arm. That thin layer is now acting as insulation from the rest of the water. Disturb that layer (by shaking your arm) and you now feel the actual temperature of the water again. Wetsuits in fact work on this basis. They trap a thin layer of water against your body which warms and acts as insulation from the rest of the cold water. Now if you reverse this ideology and apply it to a hot tub sitting in the cold you can easily see how water in motion will lose heat faster. As for heat from the circ pump... pretty negligible at -40. It takes a small 4 cylinder car about 1/2 an hour to start throwing enough heat to even defrost the windshield. In fact at -40 if you leave a small car unplugged for more than 8 hours (for those who don't know... we have block heaters which are electric heaters that you plug in to keep the engine block warm), it probably won't even start. And those interior car warmers... we don't even bother using them here. Even the 1500 watt ones have virtually no effect on keeping the inside of your car warm..... too big a space for 1500 watts to handle at these temps. They do however work in smaller spaces. They're used at the airports quite often on small planes though. They throw a blanket over the nose (the motor) and throw one in the engine compartment. My guess is that they would work on ho tubs too. Now you do generate some heat by moving the water within the wet end itself (pressurizing water will generate heat) but again it's pretty negligible No... my guess with average tub insulation and no heat applied you have about 6 to 10 hours before you start freezing up the lower extremities of the tub. Now true...you can extend that by running the pump... but then you're cooling the entire mass of water that much faster and risk freezing up much more.

Well I think that's the nature of ANY manufacturer and it's not just restricted to the spa industry. I'll bet you any money the oil companies are paying the car companies to wind those oil change count-down timers on cars these days, a little tighter than they need to be. But this describes the manufacturers and not necessarily the shop owners. They have the ominous task of balancing supply and demand along with profits and client trust. When I first started this I went to Crown Spas (in business 15 years) and told the owner "I know nothing, please set me up with a bromine starter kit".... he could have basically sold me the store, but he didn't. In fact there were several chemicals listed in that little booklet that he didn't sell me claiming they weren't really necessary. When I went back later and told him I needed to switch off of bromine because of my little one's bromine rash he again sold me only what was required. Interestingly enough I asked him what he used on his own personal hot tub and his answer was that he relies very little on chemicals at all these days. Just what is required to balance the water and "very little chlorine" anymore (he couldn't/wouldn't point out exactly how little since Health Canada insists on 3 to 5). He runs UV in combo with Ozone. Reason being is that Chlorine is now a lot like penicillin with respect to the fact it has been used for so long that there are certain parasites that have become highly resistive. Cryptosporidium these days for example lives quite nicely in chlorine at 3 to 5 levels and recent research has shown it to be resistive in chlorine levels up to almost 80ppm. UV and ozone on the other hand kill it immediately. (He did go on to tell me there are also cons to electronic systems too.... but that's another story). These are his words BTW... not mine so don't shoot the messenger. At any rate... trying to avoid going off on a tangent here... a retailer's motives and that of a manufacture are a bit different. A retailer needs to worry about supply and demand (profit vs overhead) and returning customers (trust). This being the case I would suggest this whole thing revolves more around the customer's want to enjoy a hot tub without the need to be a chemist. Retailers work in a supply and demand world. If the demand for such accuracy was there.... so would the test kits be. And experience.... there doesn't seem to be any shortage of that out there. The question is however... which version of who's experience should one actually believe because what I have learned thus far is that just about every experienced person has a completely different road for you to travel on.

That would depend COMPLETELY on what neck of the woods you live in. I live In Manitoba (Canada) where it can get down to -40 (and that's just air temp with no wind chill). I seriously doubt a trouble light and heat from the circ pump would even be CLOSE to being enough in an extended outage.

Well this is a small printed booklet directly from the SpaBoss line of chemicals: I would be hard pressed to label it as "misinformation".I think as with anything else there are clear (and different) levels of accuracy depending on how far you wish to delve into the issue in question. Not that I believe test strips are the most accurate means testing.... but they are certainly pretty universally accepted. As for K2006 kits, I find it both interesting and strange that they be touted as the more accurate kits to get (and I don't doubt it).... but are not readily available. I even checked at Krevco (one of our bigger spa depots in the city). I wonder what this says about the spa industry in general... or maybe what it says about how accurate one REALLY NEEDS to be on such issues?

Yes... I believe all of this was done correctly (as per bromine kit instructions) "On initial fill start with balancing......." ".....adjust floater for 3 to 5 ppm and add 60gm/1000 liters water Spa Shock (mps)...." I actually have 2 taylor kits.... the K1001 (bought along with my bromine starter kit) and the 1515 which I picked up yesterday (that's all they had in stock)

What about pumps?? We seem to be stuck on the issue of controller boards which in my opinion really aren't that essential to running a hot tub. You can run a heater off a simple thermostat and a pump off a simple switch if need be. I'd like to hear about the quality level of pumps (which ARE essential to a hot tub). I custom built my tub and went pretty expensive on the pump (Goulds 2HP stainless steel 3ST1G4C4) That being said.... is there a big difference in pump/heater/plumbing quality in these tubs at different levels or is it all basically the same stuff?

Sorry... maybe I wasn't clear above. Previous to this I was on Bromine tabs with floater, and as for levels... they were kept at the recommended 3 to 5 ppm

Did test for CC this morning and it's pretty much 0 Question though.... Will the ozone not simply oxidize the CC? It APPEARS to oxidize just about everything else. (I should make it clear here that the ozone runs 24/7 and the MCD-50 is denoted as "high output")

Thank you for that incredibly detailed explanation. I've actually copy/pasted it into a word document so that I can access it easily for future reference. I do happen to have a taylor liquid test kit on hand and use it the odd time for a more detailed look. Never knew about the combined chlorine calculation though.... I'll have to look at that tomorrow. The test strips I use (pentair 5 way strips) do measure both free and total chlorine.... but as stated, they can be a pain to read. As far as water balance goes... I really haven't had to do any at all. It comes out of the tap pretty much balanced around here (although hardness could be a bit higher... it comes out of the tap at about 80), but ph and alkalinity are already in the ball park (7.5 and 80 respectively) and have remained as such since my last fill.

Thank you all for the info thus far. I have no idea how much work the ozonator vs the chlorine is doing but I will say that the inclusion of this mcd-50 has made a WHOPPING difference in water quality. It seems to oxidize just about everything and its grandmother. Quite interesting... about 3 days after I filled the tub the water took on a slight bluish tint. got concerned and called DEL. They said this happens often with fresh fills and it's simply the ozone oxidizing some of the metals from the tap water. They said it would clear in a day or so with running the filters (it did). No... not a commercial spa... just for my family and myself. It's simply an extremely convenient tub (indoor/outdoor) so it get used A LOT by us. I have yet to test for CYA (or added). I would imagine there is some in there since I'm using dichlor... but I'm applying so little now.... maybe a couple teaspoons (for 1100 gallons) every other day. (Chlorine is granular with stabilizer)

Combined chlorine (which I am assuming is the same as "total chlorine") hovers between 0 and 1 (a little hard to read since i'm using test strips and the color sort of hovers at the lowest two colors). Granular chlorine with stabilizer is being used.... which kind of bothers me a little... not much direct sunlight these days and as I understand it, it is possible to get a build up of stablizer in the tub.

DEL has suggested chlorine can be run at a lower level with its ozonator. So far I have kept it between 1 and 2 and there do not seem to be any issues.

I have a fairly high traffic tub. It sees roughly 7 to 10 bathers a day, 7 days a week. It used to be pretty easy to tell when it needed shocking. The water would start to haze over a little.... which was usually about every 48 hours. However roughly 12 days ago now I drained, installed a better filter system, and a Del MCD-50 high output ozonator. Since then the water has stayed crystal clear in spite of the heavy traffic. (Chlorine levels are being held between 1 and 2). I'm not even having to use a spa ball anymore so the long and short of it is that all my tell-tale signs of necessitating shock treatments that I was used to in the past, are gone. Do I still need to shock even though the water is clear and remains balanced? If so then how often?