chem geek
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Posts posted by chem geek
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Yes, that link you showed is baking soda so is the right stuff for raising TA. You can use PoolMath to calculate dosages.
Be careful about using too much HTH granular which is Cal-Hypo. In fact, the following chemical facts are independent of concentration of product or of spa size:
For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) added by Trichlor, it also increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) by 6 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Dichlor, it also increases CYA by 9 ppm.
For every 10 ppm FC added by Cal-Hypo, it also increases Calcium Hardness (CH) by at least 7 ppm.
You also want to have SOME Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the water or the chlorine will be too strong and will also react and outgas too quickly. You can most easily add CYA by using Dichlor (chlorinating granules) cumulatively until you've added 33-44 ppm FC which will add 30-40 ppm CYA. You then switch to using bleach or lithium hypochlorite (or SOME Cal-Hypo, but not too much too often) and once a month use Dichlor for a day to replenish CYA that is slowly lost. See Using Chlorine in a Spa for more details though I don't know if you will be able to get boric acid easily in Europe so will have to be careful about controlling the pH when using hypochlorite sources of chlorine.
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If you don't add chlorine and the FC isn't dropping or is dropping slowly, then the ozonator is not working. Ozone will usually at least double chlorine demand, often to 50% or more per day. The bubbles are air, but that does not mean the ozonator itself is working. You can get a Del Ozone test kit if you want, but I'm pretty sure your ozonator isn't working.
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You don't need a phosphate remover even in pools if at least the minimum FC/CYA ratio is maintained and I suggest your friend visit Trouble Free Pool to learn more.
As for spas, they tend to not get algae because they are covered (algae need light to grow) and often very hot (they don't like 104ºF temperatures).
You should seriously consider using Ahh-Some to get rid of greases and biofilms especially from a used spa (though even new spas can have greases and biofilm from the factory and wet testing).
You should not have to change the water frequently if you properly manage the spa. For example, if you use chlorine, then the Dichlor-then-bleach method would let you go at least twice as long between water changes by avoiding the buildup of CYA.
If you use the spa almost every day, then chlorine would be added after every soak and would work well with the ozonator, but if you use the spa less frequently then chlorine will be a pain since ozone depletes chlorine so in between soaks the chlorine demand/usage will be more than doubled. In that case, bromine might be a better choice since ozone will create more bromine from bromide. See Using Chlorine in a Spa and Using Bromine in a Spa.
25 grains hardness is around 430 ppm Total Hardness which is high. I would use softened water to help prevent calcium carbonate scaling which is more likely in spas due to the hotter spa water temperatures.
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Arm & Hammer Baking Soda. However, given that your pH isn't low, I wouldn't raise your Total Alkalinity (TA) by very much, probably no more than 60 ppm.
As for your chlorine, you have to add chlorine after your soak to oxidize bather waste. Every person-hour of soaking in a hot (104ºF) spa with no ozonator needs roughly 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 3-1/2 fluid ounces of 8.25% bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS). With an ozonator, it's half or less these amounts. At lower temperatures it's also less (and you can't soak for an hour at 104ºF so your temperature is likely to be lower).
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I can't find an MSDS so I don't know. If you see any ingredients then that might help, but they probably don't list them. If it were boric acid there would usually be an MSDS/SDS.
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How long is each of your soaks (you and your wife)? That is how many minutes per soak?
833 liters is 220 gallons so the standard Water Replacement Interval (WRI) when using Dichlor-only and assuming 20 minute soaks is the following:
WRI (days) = (1/3) x (Spa Size in Gallons) / (# of persons per day) = (1/3) x (220) / (2 * (3/7)) = 85 days
With the Dichlor-then-bleach method one should be able to go at least twice that long so around 6 months. However, if you are soaking for longer than 20 minutes in a hot (104ºF or 40ºC) spa, then you are doing well. The ozonator is helping to be sure since it is oxidizing much of the bather waste that would otherwise build up (in spite of some coagulation/filtration from Aquafinesse).
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See Cleaning a Cartridge Filter which shows the instructions from Unicel®. TSP is best, but dishwashing detergent works as well as does a commercial filter cleaner.
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It is for sale in the U.S. but by itself with no chlorine it is not an EPA approved disinfectant because it does not kill bacteria including fecal bacteria nor viruses or protozoan occsts that can be transmitted from person-to-person to cause disease. Aquafinesse inhibits biofilm formation but does not kill pathogens quickly. It also does not oxidize bather waste so it is best used in spas with an ozonator to handle that. Otherwise you end up soaking in your own sweat and urine. Aquafinesse does have some coagulants in it but that won't coagulate and filter out all bather waste -- most people report better results when using the system with an ozonator.
As for pH control, if your fill water isn't very low in Total Alkalinity (TA) then if you have aeration jets your pH will rise just as in any other spa. Perhaps you are ignoring that or are not using any spa jets. Aquafinesse helps to prevent scale formation so they may just say you can let the pH get up to 8.0 or higher and not worry about calcium carbonate scale.
Now Aquafinesse can be sold in different ways including WITH chlorine so I'm not sure how you are using it. There ARE plenty of threads on this forum about Aquafinesse. Take a look at this post and subsequent posts in that thread. See my post that balances reports where Aquafinesse should be seen as a supplemental product rather than standalone (i.e. you still need chlorine). This thread is a long older one about Aquafinesse with several people reporting pros and cons. This post is pretty typical that those using Aquafinesse without an ozonator often run into problems with water turning cloudy unless they shock with chlorine (some others reported water turning green as in this post).
We had a variety of hot tub itch/rash/lung incidents reported on this forum that I gathered in this post and quite a few were due to "alternatives" including at least one with Aquafinesse while some were due to Dichlor-only usage usually after 2 and especially 3 months after CYA had built up. That's when I fine-tuned the Dichlor-then-bleach method to avoid the CYA buildup, but to get better pH control I have the TA lowered and use 50 ppm Borates. One could alternatively use a scale inhibitor and/or calcium reducer similar to what Aquafinesse does (and if the CH is lower than handle foaming in a different way) and then not worry as much about the higher pH, but I was trying to make the system as inexpensive as possible. The Dichlor-then-bleach method has been very successful extending the time between water changes significantly (at least double) and unlike Aquafinesse it doesn't need an ozonator to work effectively at oxidizing bather waste. It's also dirt cheap since primarily what is used regularly is just bleach. On a water change one uses Ahh-Some, boric acid, and lowers TA with acid and aeration.
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That sounds right for typical tap water, though usually it's a bit higher in pH (to prevent metal corrosion in piping).
The density of Dichlor is roughly the same as water so 1 ounce of weight is roughly 1 fluid ounce of volume so you're OK to use a measuring cup.
MPS test strips are designed to measure MPS. FC test strips usually will not measure MPS unless it's very high. TC test strips will measure MPS (and FC and CC combined). You shouldn't need MPS test strips unless you plan to use MPS such as with the Nature2 system.
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Yes, when I wrote "it's not just dangerous to you" I wrote "JUST" meaning "not only" or "in addition".
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Yup. Never add acid to chlorinating liquid or bleach since that produces chlorine gas. People typically meter chlorine and acid separately. Note that if you are using chlorinating liquid or bleach that is high quality (not too much excess lye in it) then if you keep your TA lower (definitely no higher than 80 ppm but maybe 70 or lower) and target a higher pH then that reduces pH rise from carbon dioxide outgassing.
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Total Hardness? Are you using test strips? You should be using a proper test kit such as the Taylor K-2006. You need to test Calcium Hardness, not Total Hardness, and test strips are generally not accurate especially for some of the tests (depending on manufacturer of the test. So your CSI may in fact be too high.
As for injection, you should look at a Mazzei Venturi injector.
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It's not just dangerous to you, but to any metal in the pool shed. They should seal that container.
The danger from inhalation of acid ranges from irritation to permanent lung damage so it should be taken seriously. Just search on "acid inhalation" and you'll find many sources for the problems it causes.
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Are you using The Liquidator or are you using a peristaltic pump? The Liquidator is known to have issues with calcium carbonate scaling because the pH of the chlorine solution is high at the outlet. The use of larger tubes and a modified valve are the solution (see this link about the 3/8" upgrade). If you are using a peristaltic pump, then perhaps your Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) is too high. You may need to lower your pH, TA, and or CH.
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As shown in this MSDS, swimming pool antifreeze is propylene glycol and it is the same as in SOME RV antifreeze. The problem is that some RV antifreeze contains other chemicals such as shown in this MSDS that also lists glycerol or this MSDS that also lists ethanol (though that should not be a problem).
Regardless of whether you use RV antifreeze or swimming pool antifreeze, having propylene glycol added to the pool water will create a chlorine demand. You should not be dumping the anti-freeze from your lines into the pool. In suction lines you should evacuate them to waste rather than recirculate. For returns, you should drain them one at a time into a bucket or otherwise prevent most of it from getting into the pool. See this thread where I had labs to water tests on two pools that showed unusually high chlorine demand and it seems to indicate that unlike what the pool store claims, the anti-freeze does NOT build up but rather what is going on is that the propylene glycol gets oxidized by chlorine, possibly to hydroxyacetone and maybe to chloroform but that these latter two outgas from the pool. However, this should have little to do with any staining.
As for your other water balance questions and metal staining, I suggest you read the Pool School.
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With your more frequent usage then after you use Ahh-Some you can use the Dichlor-then-bleach method as described in the sticky Dichlor/bleach Method In A Nutshell, but with two differences. The TA should be lowered to 50 ppm (80 ppm is too high) and the use of 50 ppm Borates (usually from boric acid from Duda Diesel or from The Chemistry Store) is not optional. Also, in addition to initially using Dichlor to build up the CYA level to around 30-40 ppm, you need to use Dichlor for a day per month to maintain the CYA level; the rest of the time bleach (or chlorinating liquid) is used. It must be unscented regular bleach, NOT "outdoor" or "splash-less" which have thickeners that can foam.
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Adding a disinfectant only once a week is ridiculous. That's the primary problem. In between your additions bacteria were able to grow, probably forming biofilms and you don't have enough oxidizer to break down bather waste nor prevent foaming.
You are just throwing in product after product after product because someone who makes a profit selling these to you is telling you to do so. You need to decide whether or not you want to take charge of your spa or if you want to continue to spend hundreds of dollars with people who have no interest whatsoever in helping you solve your problem even if they knew how, which most don't.
You also need to decide if you are going to continue to pursue "alternative" systems in spite of clearly having them fail on you.
First off, if you have never used Ahh-Some, you should do so before you next change the water. It will help get rid of biofilms, greases, and other contaminants that have likely built up in your spa because it has not been properly maintained.
Next, you need to decide whether you want to use chlorine, bromine, or Nature2 with MPS, assuming you want to use an EPA-approved disinfectant. To help make that determination you need to answer two questions: 1) how often do you use the spa (i.e. every day or two or only on weekends, etc.) and 2) do you have an ozonator?
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You should use PoolMath since The Pool Calculator is no longer supported.
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Though you could elevate the chlorine level to try and get rid of the CC, the easiest way is usually just to uncover the pool and expose it to sunlight. However, you shouldn't normally be having CC in the pool. I usually measure <= 0.2 ppm CC in my pool (using a 25 ml water sample for the FAS-DPD FC & CC test).
Given your lower chlorine loss rate at low CYA, it may be that your pool doesn't get that much sun, is that right?
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You should get a proper test kit and learn how to manage your pool by reading the Pool School. If you are just guessing at what to do and going by color and appearance, then why ask questions for help. You either want to do it right or you don't.
For chemical additions to the pool, generally wait for the first one to circulate before adding the second one. In most pools 30 minutes is enough time between additions if you are adding chemicals slowly over a return flow in the deep end with the pump running. You should then lightly brush the side and bottom of the pool where you add chemicals.
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Yes, you could have pollen. Get a skimmer sock for the skimmer. If it's pollen, a lot should collect there. Pollen feels squishy whereas algae feels slimy. You can also easily see the difference under a microscope where pollen is typically round and spiky while algae is translucent and usually oblong.
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If your pool is exposed to sunlight, then 30 ppm CYA is not going to protect the chlorine very well from breakdown so unless you have a system that is measuring chlorine regularly and dosing regularly then I'd suggest going higher to at least 50 ppm and then use at least 1 ppm FC. At 30 ppm CYA you will probably lose half or more of your FC in a day while at 50 ppm CYA you'll probably lose less than one-third so might be able to go from 1.5 ppm FC to no lower than 1.0 ppm FC by the next day.
You can use PoolMath to calculate dosages and it weight of pure CYA since it's not a liquid. It dissolves slowly so it's easier to put into a sock or old T-shirt in the skimmer of hanging over a return flow to get it dissolved in about a day.
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Well you can play it safe or can call up some of these manufacturers to find out why they believe what they do.
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Is It Important To Dry The Filter Before Replace.
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
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No. You should rinse the filter of any cleaning material you used (e.g. TSP, dishwashing detergent, commercial cleaner), but it need not be dry when replaced. It's going to get wet right away when used.