[Excess Foam From Clorox]

My hot tub has a salt water clorine generator and at the present time it is not working at full capacity and can maintain FC in the tub without bathers and we have been adding Clorox during heavier usage. We have been experiencing heavy foam and did not see this in the past. The Clorox avialable in the stores has been changed. The Clorox is:

• Ultra Splash-Less bleach
  
• HE
  
• Thick Control Pour Formula
  
• 6%
  

Has anyone else experienced foaming from the Clorox? Is there another brand that does not foam?

[Hard Water Testing With Taylor 2006 Test Kit]

Thanks for the clarification. I am on a private well and I wanted to know the TH of my water for the performance of a dishwashere. I could send a sample away to have it tested but it looked like the Taylor test kit is quite close to measuring TH if I knew the conversion of units and the conversion factor. Based on your explanation the TH is determined by the following formula:

CH (from Taylor Kit) X 1.4/17.1 = TH total hardness in grains/gal

Is this correct?

If it is this will do for my needs to determine if I need to soften my water. Thanks for your help.

[Hard Water Testing With Taylor 2006 Test Kit]

I use the 2006 test kit to control the water quality of my hot tub. I would like to know if there is any way to relate the TH and TA measurements to water hardness in grains of hardness? It looks like the two tests are very simalar or do I need a completely different test?

[Onzen Problems]

Given the problems that you have had (and others have reported onzen problems here as well but I assume thare are users without problems) perhaps you can get the dealer to provide the upgrade for you at zero or very low cost.

I think you need to talk directly to arctic. In the beginning they had someone on this site helping Arctic owners with problems with the Onzen. What you're dealing with should not be new to them and I'd look to bypass the owner and take the beef up directly with the manufacturer at this point.

I have an Artic Spa with Onzen and have been running it for 1 year. I had the Onzen system upgraded to Version 7 after 3 weeks and this system works very well. I run the Onzen at a setting setting of 2 out of 6 and my chlorine is good all of the time. When I have crowds from the family I raise it to 4 and it looks after the heavier loads. I am running a Salt system with chlorine and follow the Dichlor then Bleach method outlined on this forum. I only use the bleach at startup and to do a boost. My water is good and I change it every 6 months to avoid the really cold weather. When I add well water, to cover splash out, the TA gets raised by about 20 ppm and I use Muratic acid to control the PH and and adjust the TA down to 70. We have left the tub running on it's own for over three weeks while on vacation and the PH and chlorine levels were good when we returned. The tub is maintenance free and I check the PH and chlorine about every 1-2 weeks.I contacted the factory directly to have the system upgraded at no cost. The phone numbers on their web site will get you in contact with the technical people and they will arrange for your dealer to do the change.

[Borax And Muriatic Acid]

I am getting prepared for a new fill and instead of Boric Acid (I could not find it this time) I am going with Borax and Muriatic Acid combo. Do I mix it together before I pour it into the tub? I assume I can do this last after everything is balanced?

NEVER mix chemicals in the same bucket before adding and always wait before adding more

I do the Borax and Muratic addition after I have corrected the TA to be close to the required setting based on my tub (TA 90). I measure both of the chemicals out into seperate containers and then first add the Borax and then add the Muratic acid to the water. I do not think the order is critical as both products go in close together. I let the water circulate on high and after 30 to 45 minutes do a ph test to see if the ph is still in range. The pool calculator is good and the amounts balance out. My water volume (1131 L) required 500 gms of Borax and 250 ml of muratic acid to have 50 ppm of Borate in the water. I did this in three steps of 200, 200 and 100 gms of Borax. You can use whatever steps you prefer. When I was done with this I went back and fine tuned the TA to the setting I wanted (70-80). I then used Dichlor to build up CYA to 30 ppm. Minor PH corrections will fine tune the TA after this.

[1st Time Buyer - Artic Onzen Vs Hotspring Silkbalance]

I have and Artic Spa with Onzen and follow Nitro's dichlor then bleach method. My current water fill is 6 months and will be changed next week as we will be away in June and I want the next fill time not to be in mid winter. The OnZen System works very well and a setting of 2 out of a possible 6 will keep the FC level correct for me. The only chemical I have to add is about 5-10 CC Mutatic acid every two weeks. We have gone on vacations and the system keeps the FC in check for the total time. I typically only measure the water, using the Taylor test kit, about once per week and find the pool remains balanced.I have added Borates to 50 ppm, CYA at around 35 ppm, TH 220 and TA around 70.

[Chlorine/salt Water Generator Vs Adding Weekly Chemicals?]

The TA is 70 with the taylor test kit.

[Chlorine/salt Water Generator Vs Adding Weekly Chemicals?]

I also have an Artic SPA with Onzen (salt) and it works very well. When the TA is right the PH hardly moves and the only chemical is 5 ml acid if the PH creeps up about once every two weeks or more. I added 50 ppm borates and keep the CYA around 30 ppm. The system is poawerfull enough to just turn up the clorine setting is you have a crowd and turn it down after. My house water is very high in TA and I have to correct the TA level after topping up for splash out water loss. It will be vry good to cover for vacation times of a week or two without attention.

[Questioning My Chlorine Demand Results]

I have been having the same problem of the water sample turning pink after initially going clear. I have repeater the drops to clear about 4 times before it goes clear. I assume from the other replys that the CC count should be only to the first clear state is this correct? My CC is usually 2 ppm and I have shocked to 28 ppm with no real effect. I have measure CD and it is around 17%. My filter is a disposible one and has been the SPA for 3 months. The CC level has been constant for most of the time. The water balance has been constant for the past 3 weeks with very little movement. My FC is usually 6-7 ppm from an SWG system with an Ozonator. When should the filter be replaced?

[Chemicals - Which First]

I have been using the Nitro bleach method for going on 6 months-still crystal clear water. ( I'm so glad I found you guys.)

Anyway, thinking of changing water and wanted to know if their is a specific order in which to put in chemicals. I will be increasing calcium hardness, lowering total alkalinity, adding Gentle spa (borates) and of course diclor.

I also will be installing a Nature 2 cartridge in an attempt to master the "low chlorine" recipe.(No MPS).

Early on in my spa ownership I developed a rash which I was hoping was folliculitus (that can be fixed) but was determined by a visit to a dermatologist that it was simply excema,which is irritated by hot tub use.

I have used the tub less with success although would really enjoy using it more.

I also was going to change from dry acid to muratic acid as somewhere I read that it was less irritating than the dry acid.

Any input or recommendations would be deeply appreciated.

Ideally you don't want the PH going out of range, so you would balance the PH first, then add borates and acid in small amounts to keep the PH reasonable, then add chlorine and calcium.

It probably isn't that important as long as you wait for each to reasonably dissolve before adding the next chemical, and the PH isn't out of range for more than a minute while you add chemicals.

PS The pool calculator for the iPhone is highly recommended. If you don't have an iPhone you can use the same calculator online here:

http://www.poolcalculator.com/

When I changed my water I have high TA = 220 so the sequence I used was

1. acid to lower ph to 7.2 and aerate to PH =7.8. I repeated the cycle until TA was 100

2. Added borates and acid to get 50 ppm borates

3. readjusted TA after I finished with Borates.

4. Used Dichlor unitl CYA= 30 ppm then bleach.

Everthing whent fine.

[Salt Water Generator And Cc Question]

If this is a new tub, that could explain the persistent CCs. New tubs should always be decontaminated before use.

Even if the tub is not new, the persistent CCs indicate some sort of contaminant, such a bacterial biofilm. I recommend that you do a Decontamination procedure.

The tub is new in Nov 2009. I turned the CP up to 6 on the Onzen and this should take FC up to 20. Once it maxes out I will add Chlorox to go over 25 for a break point shock. Is the shock time sensitive and would be more effective if the Clorox was addded all at once?

[Salt Water Generator And Cc Question]

It would be very unusual for you to have persistent CCs of 2.0 to 2.5 ppm with the SWG and an FC in the 4 to 8 ppm range. SWGs usually have little or no CCs.

If you are shocking with MPS, that will register as CC, but it is really MPS. You can get MPS interference remover from Taylor K-2042. It is a 2.0 ounce volume (59 ml) for $23.85.

There is a 0.75 ounce volume (22 ml) K-2041 for $20.31.

The remover is used at 1.0 ml per test. Getting the 59 ml kit will allow 59 tests at 40 cents per test. The 22 ml kit will allow 22 tests at 92 cents per test. The 2.0 ounce volume (59 ml) kit is a much better deal.

If you are not shocking with MPS, the CCs could be coming from a high bather load. You should shock after every use according to the number of person-hours the tub was used.

If you don't have an ozonator, then the rough rule of thumb we've found on this forum to be reasonable accurate in a hot (100-104F) spa is the following dosing per person-hour of soaking: 3-1/2 teaspoons of Dichlor or 5 fluid ounces of 6% bleach or 7 teaspoons of non-chlorine shock (43% MPS). With your ozonator, you would likely use lower amounts assuming you use the tub every day. - chem geek

If you are not shocking with MPS and there is not a very high bather load, then you have some sort of organic contaminant that is persistent and you should do a decontamination procedure including starting with clean filters.

Decontamination

Clean filters 1

Clean filters 2

Nitro's approach to water maintenance

Chlorine demand

I have some MPS but have not used any yet for shocking. I hoped to read more information on MPS before using it. Based on other posts I see it is acidic and will lower TA when used. Our bather load is not high just two of us for 1/2 hr /night. The filter is two months old and is an Artic disposable unit. The filter looks very clean with no particles or hair visable on the surface. Tonight the FC is 5 and the CC is 2.5.

[Salt Water Generator And Cc Question]

I have a Salt water chlorine generator with Ozone and the system is working fine at maintaining a good FC level.

Fry Man -

I can't answer your question, but I am curious about your SWG system. Is it built into you tub or is it an aftermarket add-on? If it's an aftermarket device, what kind is it, how long have you been using it, and ... lastly ... are you happy with its overall performance.

I am thinking about getting an aftermarket SWG for my Jacuzzi brand tub (275 gallons). There seems to be very little posted on this forum about the aftermarket devices. I'm basically in the dark about these devices as add-ons.

I would appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

Thanks,

- Simon

My SWG is an Artic Onzen system Version 7. I have had it for about 4 months and it works very well. Version 7 has lots of capacity and only some acid is required for PH control

[Salt Water Generator And Cc Question]

I have a Salt water chlorine generator with Ozone and the system is working fine at maintaining a good FC level. I use the Taylor 2006 test kit and my typical test numbers are:

Volume 1131 L

Temp 40 C

PH 7.6

CH 230 ppm

TA 70 ppm

CYA 42 ppm

Borates 50 ppm

Salt 1,813 ppm Measured salt and calculated

SI -0.16 range 0 to -.30 based mainly on ph

FC 4 ppm

CC 2.5 ppm

The ph is stable between 7.4 to 7.8 and generall holds around 7.6. I use Muratic acid or dry acid to adjust PH.The FC varies 4-8 ppm and the CC is constant around 2.0 to 2.5. The water is 2 months old and is clear and does not have any odours. Initially I was not monitoring CC very often but it was always over 1 when Itested. I have shocked to 14 to 18 ppm and did not see the CC go down much. The setting for the SWG is to be on for 8 hrs/day and it will hold the FC in the above range. At 4 hrs/day there is a gradual decrease in FC. My question is for a SWG system will the CC always be higher? When I shock how high should the FC level be. My SWG at max setting can get FC up to 20 ppm. Can I shock by just turning up the SWG or do I have to add Chlorine either Chlorox or MPS? What is the negative impact of the 2 ppm CC?

[Arctic Summit Bromine Levels]

Looks like you're not alone with the Onzen issue. I guess I've been lucky so far.

Does anyone know how you tell which Onzen version you have?

Take off the panel by the pumps and the ozen generator version 6 is white or light grey with just a wire coming out of the back. Version 7 has a cable plus there is a water port in the back where water is pumped through the sensor when pump 1 is running.

The change will take about two hours to do after the water is out. I do not run Bromine but my CP was 6 and the FC was about 2. Now on Version 7 my CP is 2 and FC is 4-5 ppm. Bather load is two people are in the tub 1/2 hr per day.

[Taylor]

The AquaChek White is the best of the salt test strips, but some (on another forum) have reported inconsistencies reading too high even with that test. It does look like you did your calculations correctly. There is also a small amount of conductivity from what is effectively calcium, magnesium and bicarbonate (paired to these for calculation) that is separate from the chloride. So if the total hardness were initially high while the chloride was relatively low, then that would be added and would be measured by the SWG cells as it just looks like conductivity.

As for whether to get the Taylor test, that's up to you. It may give you a more accurate reading. Note that the silver nitrate reagent used in the test can blacken fingers with a stain that is virtually impossible to remove (though eventually fades as skin eventually gets replaced) so be careful. Note that while the Taylor test is measuring chloride, it reports such measurement as ppm sodium chloride (salt) as is the convention so should be consistent with your calculated result which uses the weight of actual sodium chloride salt.

Thanks for your comments. Since a salt test is not required very often I will add the salt by calculation on a new fill and then record the result with the AquaChek White test strip. The test strips are repettive and can be used to monitor the splash out for the remainder of the fill cycle and I can add salt to keep the level up based on the strips and the calculation for the amount.

[Taylor]

I'm not sure I understand how you used The Pool Calculator to figure out your salt level. I can see how you can figure out the increase in salt from chlorine sources, such as Dichlor, but The Pool Calculator can't tell you how much initial salt you added to the water. There will also be some initial salt in the fill water, but that is a fairly low amount. How did you figure out the amount of salt you added? The weight of the salt into the volume of water, converted into milligrams per liter (which is ppm)?

Test strips for salt can sometimes be wrong. The Onzen unit is probably measuring conductivity and figuring an implied salt level, though conductivity is temperature dependent and I don't know how much the unit adjusts for that.

In my own pool (which isn't an SWG pool so it's just for my curiosity) I use the Taylor K-1766 drop-based test and I use a 25 ml sample where each drop is 80 ppm since my salt levels aren't that high (you normally use a 10 ml sample where each drop is 200 ppm).

I am sorry about the salt calculation. I did this calculation in my spread sheet using the following formula:

Salt ppm =Total salt gms/(working volume in Litres*1000)*1,000,000

The quantities are:

Salt 2,000 gms

working volume 1131 L

Calculated result = 1768 ppm

Addition of salt from pool calculator for adding Dichlor to get 34 ppm CYA=31 ppm

Total salt calculated = 1799

I used one of the Aqua Chek Bromine salt strip to measure the initial water and as expected it was very low at 164 ppm. This value is not factored into any of the calculations above.

Artic recommends 2000 to 3000 ppm for the Onzen system. The system is doing fine on the current concentration and I wanted to determine the correct salt levels before making any more adjustments. I have seen several higher levels recommended for SWG systems in the posts on this forum. Before changing out my last water the salt was 2,240 gms salt and 32 ppm from Dichlor for a total of2013. For this level of salt the strips showed 3386 and 3835.

The Aqua Chek white strip seem to be the most accurate of the three test strips I have. Can I use this as a reference knowing the error and continue to do the calculation? The only problem is splash out which will cause dilution over time. so my calculation will also have a greater error as time goes on. I use the Taylor 2006 drop test kit for all other measurements.

Should I get the Taylor K-1766 drop test kit and forget the test strips or continue with the calculation?

[Taylor]

something I don't get is why some people will try to keep the total alk on the high side, then try to bring the ph down?? it seems like it is a constant battle, I had my water checked by a pool mfg today and they said raise the alk then use adjust down for the ph

This is a common problem in the pool and spa industry because many of these people don't understand that higher TA is not only a pH buffer which would normally lead to greater pH stability, but it is also a SOURCE of rising pH itself (due to carbon dioxide outgassing) and this latter effect outweighs the former at higher TA levels. The only time a higher TA is really needed is when using acidic sources of sanitizer, such as Trichlor in pools or even Dichlor in spas (since chlorine consumption/usage is acidic). When using hypochlorite sources of chlorine, the TA should be much lower in order to have pH stability and in spas where aeration jets are common, having another pH buffer such as 50 ppm Borates helps as this buffer is not a source of rising pH.

I have the Onzen system and I have been having a problem with determining the actual salt concentration in the tub. Using the corrected operating volume of the tub I have been using the pool calculator to determine the salt levels. When I use the test strips the readings do not agree at all. below is my salt concentration and the test method:

Pool calculator plus adjustments for Dichlor 1799 ppm salt

Aqua Chek Hack Bromine 3386 ppm

Aqua Chek white salt strips 2490 ppm

Genisis Bromine 3835 ppm

I have been told the Bromine strips will measure the salt correctly. The above results were taken on a new refill and do not include too much contamination from other chemicals.

I have the following other parameters:

TA 80

CH 230

PH 7.4-7.4

CYA 34

Borates 50 calculated by pool calculator

I adjusted the CYA with Dichlor and now will have only the onzen for sanitizer. The ph is quite stable and drifts up slowely and only Dry acid or muratic acid is used to lower the PH. Each time this is added it fine tunes the TA down slightly and it will probably settle out near 70. The Onzen produces lots of Chlorine and just needs to be tuned for load.

Dano your pool volume may be off, quite a bit, if you are using the printed manual. Artic can supply the correct operating volume to help you get better accuracy from the pool calculator.

The question is do I just rely on the calculated salt concentration because the strips appear to be not very accurate?

[Borates]

I have been following this post and this past weekend added Borax to bring up my Borate to 28 ppm based on the pool calculator. Is there any minimum level I should exceed to get the proper benifits? Adding the Borax caused the pool to go a little cloudy and is this normal? . All of my water balance parameters are good as follows:

FC 2-3 with SWG and Ozone

PH 7.4 - 7.6 adjusted down at 7.8 to 7.4 steady PH over several days

TA Steady at 70 until I added Borax and some fresh water at the same time. Went up to 80. My fresh water is 220.

CH 210 unitil I added more water now 220.

CYA estimated at 35 based on pool calculator and weights of Dichlor

Borates 28 from pool calculator

CSI +.1 TO -.3 usually between -.1 and -.3

What should be used to get rid of a slightly cloudy condition?

[How To Measure Borate Levels]

You can use the pool calculator to calculate the correct amount of either Borax or boric acid to use for your tub and the desired increase.

I also use the pool calculator but am looking for a way to measure the actual level of Borates before making other adjustments.

[How To Measure Borate Levels]

I am new to hot tubs and have been following the discussions in this forum on water chemistry. Following the advice of most people I have purchased the Taylor 2006 kit and have found the water control to be straight forward. I would like to add some Borates to my tub as per the different recommendations but the Taylor kit does not have a test for Borates. Can you tell me how this chemical is measured?