simonc

Mike (mcw53) - Thanks for the information about Nature2 and MPS. I have decided not to use the Nature2 (silver nitrate) system for now. Here's my plan ... 1. I've drained my tub and added new water and adjusted levels. 2. I've ordered a good test kit - Taylor K2006. 3. I'm going to try the diclor-then-bleach method recommended by Chem Geek & Nitro. I'll consider the Nature2 cartridge as an option for the future. I would like to get some feedback from people who have used the silver nitrate cartridge. I recently posted a question on this forum asking people to share their experience with the system. No one responded. However, it seems that you are happy with Nature2. Thanks, - Simon

Chem Geek - Thanks for the explanation. I think I'm going to stop using the non-chlorine shock. Also, I did not realize that there are two different kinds of the stuff. I was under the misimpression that non-chlorine shock got rid of the build up of "old chlorine" chemicals that were no longer active (i.e., not contributing to the free chlorine that sanitizes). Based on this, I figured that the non-chlorine shock was getting rid of chemicals that made my water less pleasant. I guess I was really doing just the opposite. My preference is to add as few chemicals as possible/necessary. I'll try the dichlor then bleach method, as you (and Nitro) suggested. I don't see a need for MPS. If my water turns cloudy, I'll just "shock" the water with more chlorine (bleach) than usual. I'm still debating the use of the silver nitrate cartridge. I posted a separate thread on this forum to get feedback from people who have actually used silver in their tubs - so far no responses. I'm a little nervous about silver nitrate in a cartridge. From my very limited experience in chemistry class, I remember it as nasty stuff that can turn your skin black. I don't know how the cartridge works or if it can fail (i.e., release too much silver nitrate at one time into the water) and turn my skin black ... the stuff of nightmares. Happy soaking ... - Simon

Jaimbo - Good question. I looked at the kit recommended, but it appears to be a single use kit. So I test my ozonator (4 years old) this week and it tests good. Well ... a month from now ... is it still good??? Well ... go buy another kit. This doesn't seem like a good solution unless you are relatively sure that your ozonator is only blowing regular air and need confirmation before you spend a couple hundred dollars on a new one. The sales person at the spa store told me he can smell the ozone coming out of his showroom tubs. I couldn't smell it. Maybe I need a new nose??? Many years ago, I smelled ozone that had been produced by a strong ultraviolet light in a lab. As I remember it, it smelled "sharp" and had an acrid smell ... I think. Anyway ... I went home and put an inverted cup over the ozone outlet. The cup filled with "ozone" (I assume) and I took a smell. Nothing. Smelled like regular air to me. I asked my wife to give it the smell test. She didn't smell any difference. (Yes ... I used her as a "guinea pig" ... but we're still married.) So ... can YOU personally smell the ozone coming out of your spa's ozonator? Do I need a new nose, a new wife, or a new ozonator ... or ... all of the above??? Seriously ... Is it possible to wake up and smell the ozone in your spa??? - Simon

QUESTION: Have you used metallic silver (silver nitrate) cartridges - like Nature2 - in your spa? If so, do you think they help reduce chlorine usage? I'm relatively new to this forum. I joined because I want help with reducing chlorine usage and making my water last longer - hopefully in excess of three months. Based on the advice of Chem Geek and Nitro, I am now switching to the dichlor-then-bleach method and will see how it works for me. I have a small 3 person Jacuzzi brand hot tub (about 250-300 gallons). My wife use it about 4 or 5 times per week. After about two months, the water seems to be hard to manage. I'm frequently adding pH+ non-chlorine shock. My test strips start showing weird colors. My water is now saturated with chemicals. It's time to change the water and start over. We're having a drought in California and I hate to waste a few hundred gallons of water every 2 or 3 months. So ... what's your personal experience with silver cartridges ... do they really help reduce chlorine use? Thanks, - Simon

Richard - Once again, thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with me. It looks like I've got a lot to learn. I thought non-chlorine shock's primary purpose was to remove (via oxidation) all those chlorine residuals that cause the water to smell bad. Am I wrong? I use the "non-chlorine shock" made by Spa-Kem - sodium persulfate 75%. I don't think this is the same as MPS. Am I using the wrong kind of non-chlorine shock? Anyway ... here's my plan: 1. I'll get a better test kit like the one you recommended. 2. I just changed my water and I'm using Dichlor granuals now. No more Trichlor floater - except when we go on vacations for more than a couple of days. 3. When I get the right CYA level, I'll switch to bleach and see what happens. I'm still debating whether or not to use a silver nitrate cartridge in ADDITION TO the above. If the $35/cartridge would help me reduce chlorine use and/or make spa maintenance easier, I would use it. However, it's hard for me to believe that in such low concentrations the silver will actually make a difference. I have nothing against saving money, but my primary concern is to keep my water "pleasant" and clean as long as possible - in excess of 3 months. I'm willing to spend the money for the silver cartridge if it really will help me do that. Thanks, - Simon

mcw53 - Thanks for sharing your experience and advice. A question about MPS ... you said: "With the Nature2 cartridge installed in the circulation filter and maintaining the proper levels of MPS ..." Isn't MPS the non-chlorine shock which is used to oxidize some of the left over chlorine chemicals and such? Is there "a proper level" of MPS and how do you determine/test for the level? Lastly, do you think the Nature2 silver nitrate cartridge makes a real difference in lowering chlorine use? - Simon

Nitro - Thanks for your detailed reply to my questions. I'll give the Dichlor/Bleach method a try. If you (or anyone else) has the time/patience, here are a few more questions: 1. I have a ozonator about 4 years old. How do I know if it is working? When I capture the bubbles in an inverted glass, it just smells like regular air to me (and my wife). I thought ozone was suppose to have a a strong acrid smell. Do ozonators really reduce chemical use and if so, how do I know if mine is not just blowing plain old air bubbles. 2. The salesman at the spa store tried to sell me on using a silver nitrate cartridge (placed inside one of the large spa filters) as a way of reducing chemical usage/buildup. $35 dollars for a single cartridge that's suppose to last for 4 months. Silver nitrate is nasty stuff (can leave black marks on the skin) ... but then again chlorine isn't very nice either (possible chemical burns in high concentration). Any thoughts on using Silver nitrate to reduce chlorine usage and make the water last longer? 3. Your writeup mentions MPS (Potassium Monopersulfate - non-chlorine shock) as lowering pH. My water pH drifts down (toward the acid end). Maybe I'm using too much non-chlorine shock? However, the type I use is Sodium Persulfate (made by Spa-Kem). Is this the same as MPS and will it also lower pH? Maybe I won't need to use it as often with the Dichlor/Bleach methdod? Thanks, - Simon

Dave - Your experience with the Dichlor then Bleach method is encouraging. I think I'll give it a try. - Simon

Nitro - Thanks for taking the time to look at my situation. Also, I appreciate your knowledge and experience with the rest of us. In your writeup (Nitro's approach to Water), you say: "Important: if you're not willing to test your tub everyday, at least for the first month or two, this method is not for you. I'd recommend another sanitation method" So I figured this in not for me, but I'm willing to see if it might work, if I can simplify the process, if possible. Some questions: 1. "clorox unscented" is clorox "regular" liquid bleach that one buys at the supermarket. Correct? 2. I'm a little confused as to how to determine when to switch to bleach. You recommend 20-30 ppm of CYA. Hitting this target seems to require constant testing of FC. Can I just "ballpark" it? Use Dichlor for 2 weeks then switch to bleach? I have a small 3-person Jacuzzi brand hot tub. I think it holds about 250-300 gallons. It would be nice if based on 100 gallons, one could know how much dichlor needs to be added to reach the CYA goal. For example, if 1/x cup of dichlor would produce 25 ppm of CYA in a 100 gallons of water, then I would put 3 x 1/x cup in a container. I would add dichlor (as needed) from that container everyday until the container is empty, then switch to bleach. Maybe I'm just dreaming? 4. I assume that CYA level does not change significantly once I stop usng dichlor. Correct? 5. For a small tub like mine. About how much bleach do I need to add on a daily use basis? 1/8 cup? 1/4 cup? Thanks for your help, - Simon

Richard - Thanks for the very helpful info. Like most things in life ... there is no free lunch ... If I want my water to last longer, I'm going to have to do some work - giving up on the chlorine floater and more monitoring/testing. My wish for my spa and for California is that we have a normal winter that will end our drought ... not too wet ... or parts of California will slide away. Thanks, - Simon

Chem Geek - Thank you for the link to Nitro's writeup on spa chemistry. No, I'm not using the Dichlor/Bleach method. In all honesty, I found the writeup somewhat overwhelming ... seems like a lot of work just to soak my tired body at the end of the day. I don't think all the chemicals & testing are for me. Is there a simpler method that will work? One of the things that I found interesting about Nitro's writeup is that he states that spa pH has a tendency to drift up over time - to the more base values. My spa is always drifting down toward the more acid levels. As my water gets older, I'm adding pH+ a couple of times a week. Is there something I'm doing wrong that would cause my spa to behave in the opposite manner of most others? I should have mentioned that I live in hard water area. My water is from a municipal source but their water comes from well water. Also, I use a floater to dispense the chlorine tablets (trichloro). I supplement it with granular (dichloro) after heavy use or if the water starts to turn cloudy. Also, the temp range is usually 97-100. When we are actually in the spa, we increase the temp to 104, then let it drop back down when we get out. So ... assuming that I'm NOT going to do all the work Nitro suggests (I admit it ... I'm lazy) ... my new questions are: 1. After refilling my spa and getting the chemistry right, would I better off using bleach instead of the chlorine tablets/powder? 2. Why does my spa pH constantly drift down requiring me to add pH+ frequently after the water is about 2 months old? (Note: I adjust my alk level before adding ph+.) 3. Any other tips that would make spa care both more effective and easier? 4. I assume the major reason for switching to bleach is that it does not contain stabilizers. I've heard that stabilizers build up and then the chlorine is not as effective and therefore greater amounts are required. Correct??? Thanks, - Simon

My situation: I have a small (3 person) Jacuzzi Brand spa. It has has an ozonator and I use chlorine. My wife and I use the spa about 4 times per week. When I start out with "new" water, I find the chemistry (chlorine and ph levels) easy to maintain. As my water gets "older" I find it harder to maintain. I have to add ph+ often. The test strip chlorine colors are off (after a few seconds the patch turns dark brown instead of the normal colors I get when the water is "new"). I have to stop using the test strips and use the droplet kit which shows that the chlorine level is OK, even though the strip turned a weird color. It seems that as the water gets "older", the more frequently I have to add chemicals to keep the water from going cloudy. My thinking: It seems to me that over time, as I add chlorine, ph+, non-chlorine shock, etc.. the water gets saturated with chemicals, i.e. the water is getting "old". This takes about two or three months of use. Since I live in California and we are having a drought, I feel guilty about using a few hundred gallons of water to change my spa water. My questions: How do I know when to change the water? Is there anything (procedure/chemical/device) that will prolong the "life" of my spa water? Thanks, - Simon