OttawaGreg
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Posts posted by OttawaGreg
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Do you buy baking soda or a brand-name product for Ph+?
What is best for Ph-? In general, I'd like to use a system that doesn't require too much acid.
I'm somewhat of a chemical freak (ie. hate them and greatly prefer anything that seems safe/natural) and am still debating many water balance / mgmt options (I will make a separate post when the spreadsheets/analysis are complete)...
Regards- -mark
Mark,
I am short of being an expert but like you hate to use all the specialized chemicals as they raise the CYA level (or total dissolved solids if you prefer) faster and make you dump and refill after 2-3 months.
Use baking soda to raise pH and also raise Total Alkalinity(TA).
Use BORAX to raise to raise pH but not effect a raise in TA as much.
Use Muriatic acid to lower pH & TA.
Try the Dychlor then bleach method to more naturally sanitize and top up with MPS (Potasium Monopersulfite) to oxidize the waste.
Hope this helps, and is correct.
Greg
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YES - when I bought my first ever tub earlier this year (Sundance 680, 540 gallons) my water quality went to crap after only 3 weeks using the weekly Dichlor and Renew (MPS) method the dealer recommended - the tub has a 24 hour circ pump with ozonator, and a Sunpurity (aka Nature 2) cartridge. After seeking help from the dealer he had no real explanation other than "you've got the chemical balance wrong", which may well have been true, but I followed his recommended dosages to the letter, so was not too happy with this initial experience.
So...after draining and refilling my tub 8 weeks ago I switched over to Nitro / Chem Geeks Dichlor then bleach method, using Dichlor for the first 10 days to build up the CYA level, then switching over to Chlorox. During this 8 weeks I still carry out a weekly shock using 1.5 TBSP Dichlor and 4 TBSP MPS. After every use (usually every day) I add 1oz Chlorox for every 'person hour' of use, plus another 1 oz for good measure. After many checks I find this usually leaves a residual of around 0.5ppm free and total chlorine 24 hours later. TA holds very steady at 75. PH is typically 7.3 after shocking, rising to 7.7, then back down again to 7.3 at the next shock. Whether or not this is the 'ideal' method I don't know - but it certainly works for me, and after 8 weeks my water is as clear as the day it was filled, with very little/no chlorine odor.
Would certainly welcome any good or bad comments over this method, as I am relatively new to all of this!
Mikey,
I am following your recipe very closely after having the same problem with the water going bad after 2-3 months of heavy chemical use. I just dumped and went the Dychlor/Bleach method after testing it for a few weeks. Still in the initial stages getting my CYA up to 30 before switching from Dychlor to bleach. From my usage prior I think I will be using dosage amounts very close to yours for bleach, MPS & Dychlor(weekend only) and I wanted to know, do you still have the Nature 2 in?
I have installed a Nature 2 for a trial and plan on staying with the Dychlor/Bleach method but using it as well to compensate for the 2-3 days span where I don't use (or maintain) the tub.
Curious, I am thinking the Nature 2 will lower the required bleach, dychlor & MPS required, and maintain a sanitizer level for a few days of absence.
Greg
Let me correct my posting. I will need to add Dychor on an as needed basis to keep the CYA level up. As per the other thread this may only be monthly.
Greg
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YES - when I bought my first ever tub earlier this year (Sundance 680, 540 gallons) my water quality went to crap after only 3 weeks using the weekly Dichlor and Renew (MPS) method the dealer recommended - the tub has a 24 hour circ pump with ozonator, and a Sunpurity (aka Nature 2) cartridge. After seeking help from the dealer he had no real explanation other than "you've got the chemical balance wrong", which may well have been true, but I followed his recommended dosages to the letter, so was not too happy with this initial experience.
So...after draining and refilling my tub 8 weeks ago I switched over to Nitro / Chem Geeks Dichlor then bleach method, using Dichlor for the first 10 days to build up the CYA level, then switching over to Chlorox. During this 8 weeks I still carry out a weekly shock using 1.5 TBSP Dichlor and 4 TBSP MPS. After every use (usually every day) I add 1oz Chlorox for every 'person hour' of use, plus another 1 oz for good measure. After many checks I find this usually leaves a residual of around 0.5ppm free and total chlorine 24 hours later. TA holds very steady at 75. PH is typically 7.3 after shocking, rising to 7.7, then back down again to 7.3 at the next shock. Whether or not this is the 'ideal' method I don't know - but it certainly works for me, and after 8 weeks my water is as clear as the day it was filled, with very little/no chlorine odor.
Would certainly welcome any good or bad comments over this method, as I am relatively new to all of this!
Mikey,
I am following your recipe very closely after having the same problem with the water going bad after 2-3 months of heavy chemical use. I just dumped and went the Dychlor/Bleach method after testing it for a few weeks. Still in the initial stages getting my CYA up to 30 before switching from Dychlor to bleach. From my usage prior I think I will be using dosage amounts very close to yours for bleach, MPS & Dychlor(weekend only) and I wanted to know, do you still have the Nature 2 in?
I have installed a Nature 2 for a trial and plan on staying with the Dychlor/Bleach method but using it as well to compensate for the 2-3 days span where I don't use (or maintain) the tub.
Curious, I am thinking the Nature 2 will lower the required bleach, dychlor & MPS required, and maintain a sanitizer level for a few days of absence.
Greg
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I have a Marquis Reward. Would like to lower my chems and so forth. From what I have read is that Nature2 can be used with this system. I also plan on using the SpaGuard Sentry also. New to spas haven't had any issues with water the past 3 months. So, everything is good so far. But, can it be better? Thanks for any input and any help and insight provieded.
Correct me but isn't the Spa Frog the same thing as Nature 2?
Greg
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How do you all deal with your hot tubs when going away for a couple of weeks?
Assume not possible to have someone come and take care of it for me (always possible I guess but certainly inconvenient).
I was thinking one of two approaches:
1) Superchlorination before leaving and super chlorinate upon getting back. Thought is to get chlorine level high enough initially and with no use it should be good for a week or so. Then on getting back blast it again as a sort of mini decontamination.
2) Drain it and leave empty. Thought being I'm due for a water change anyway. Problem is it will definitely be cold enough to freeze any residual water in lines here during mid November. How do you get all water out of all lines? Is a shop vac powerful enough or is compressor needed? If shop vac then suck or blow? Drain lines or jets?
Unless I hear otherwise I'm thinking combination of the two - i.e super chlorinate now and drain when I get back. Any other suggestions?
My basic info - Jacuzzi 380, 550 gal hot tub, using dichlor/bleach.
I would go with option 1, super-chlorination. You could even put in a floater with tabs just to be sure.
I would also turn the heat down to say 90 instead of 100-104 and dial down the cleaning cycles. By default my two cleaning cycles are 1.5 hours. I have then set to 1.0 hour now and on vacation I'd bring it to .5. Provided your tub has this function.
My biggest worry is if there was a power failure! What if the day after you leave (for say 2 weeks) there is a power failure or surge and the GFCI clicks off. So no power to the tub for two weeks?? Where I am in Ottawa it can go down to -20 -> -30. I am guessing the tub could/would freeze, or at the very least some of the lines. I would have someone (family/friend/neighbor) stop in half way through the vacation period and see it's running. If not then they at least know how to throw the breaker off and on again.
Greg
As for the shop vac question I believe you first blow the water out then suck each one of the jets (one by one) afterwords. You close the other jets and place a rag around the nozzle of the vacuum and put it over the open jet. I've not done this yet, just what my neighbor said he does.
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Since you seem to be having low pH a lot in spite of a higher TA that either means your test numbers are wrong (due to the test strips) or you are using acidic sources of oxidizer. Are you using Dichlor or non-chlorine shock (MPS)?
See this post. Your problem is most likely due to the very high Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level built up from continued use of Dichlor and heavy tub use. Using the Dichlor-then-bleach method would avoid this problem (see the link in the other post).
UPDATE:
After buying a decent drop test kit and testing my spa water (many times compared to tap water here) I can confirm that my problem is certainly a very (VERY) high CYA level. It was off the scale.
The real problem for me was using inaccurate test strips then trying to balance the water from their readings. I have used the drop test kit to baseline the test strips and will only use strips to perform a quick check, and balance from the drop tests.
I have switched to the Dichlor/Bleach method after testing it for a few weeks. I will be augmenting with the Nature2 product and MPS weekly. I don't want to be testing and managing the tub daily, although I am using it that much now ;-)
Greg
Thanks Chem Geek for your help, you were right on the money!
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Has anyone actually used the Nature 2 cartridge strictly as directed? Using only the MPS regularly and dichlor once a week as the directions note? I believe I have narrowed my problem to a chlorine allergy even at low levels, 1-3ppm. I know it may be risky to try their recipe, but I gotta try.
Ken
Hi Ken
I just switched over from the SPA store chemicals to the dychlor/bleach method described in this forum. I've tried it for a few weeks and saw improvements. I just dumped the tub this weekend and refilled and and my plan is this;
I have brought up the Calcium hardness to 170, TA 90, pH 7.8, CL 5, and the CYA is next to 0. I will bring CYA up to 30 using dychlor (stabilized) over the next few days and then switch to bleach as the main sanitizer. That I will augment with MPS on a weekly basis, just a small amount. I have just installed the Nature 2 and think I will need to modify their overly dosed recipe of MPS. They have you adding 1 tbs before and after each soak. I will try bleach and the MPS end of week.
I will let you know how it goes. Please keep me posted on how your trial goes as well.
Greg
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Has anyone actually used the Nature 2 cartridge strictly as directed? Using only the MPS regularly and dichlor once a week as the directions note? I believe I have narrowed my problem to a chlorine allergy even at low levels, 1-3ppm. I know it may be risky to try their recipe, but I gotta try.
Ken
Hi Ken
I just switched over from the SPA store chemicals to the dychlor/bleach method described in this forum. I've tried it for a few weeks and saw improvements. I just dumped the tub this weekend and refilled and and my plan is this;
I have brought up the Calcium hardness to 170, TA 90, pH 7.8, CL 5, and the CYA is next to 0. I will bring CYA up to 30 using dychlor (stabilized) over the next few days and then switch to bleach as the main sanitizer. That I will augment with MPS on a weekly basis, just a small amount. I have just installed the Nature 2 and think I will need to modify their overly dosed recipe of MPS. They have you adding 1 tbs before and after each soak. I will try bleach and the MPS end of week.
I will let you know how it goes. Please keep me posted on how your trial goes as well.
Greg
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Your bleach usage of 1 oz/person/hour is quite low. Rule of thumb is 5 oz/person/hour, regardless of spa size.
>> Greg
I am thinking your rule of thumb is close to what I have been seeing lately having just started using the dyclor/bleach method. When I used 2-3 oz of bleach after a soak there was often 0 CH the next day. My average use is 1 1/2 person soaks nightly for 1 hour. So, I am thinking I need on average 5-8 oz of bleach (Clorox 6%) as a dose after a soak. I sweat more then the wife (allot more) so 150-200 ml is a good amount to add nightly for the both of us. If it's just me for 45 minutes then maybe 120 ml.
Does this sound about right?
Greg
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With my limited time here in Boston on work I got to Leslie's Pool Supplies finally and bought the kit they recommended and had in stock. They didn't have the one on the website I wanted and thought was the re-brand of the k-2006.
It looks just like the k-2006 kit but is missing (as far as I can tell) the wheel and paper manual. I am not sure if there are any other difference here but I did notice the higher price kit mentioned something about using .75 reagents for more accuracy. ??
When I look at the bottles they are manufactured by Taylor and are 0.75 oz (22 ml). 14 in total - 3 yellow, 3-red, 3-blue, 3-green and 2 white [r1-r14]. The sales guy mentioned I can just buy the full litre bottles after to refill these later and save $$.
There are 14 bottles of solution, the color coded test vile, two measured beakers and a capped bottle.
It is called the Total Poolcare DPD Test Kit and tests for;
Free & Total Chlorine (bromine)
pH
Acid & Base demand
Total Alkalinity
Calcium Hardness
Cyanuric Acid
It cost $42.00
I am hoping that noting critical is missing here.
Greg
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Don't worry about it.
A taylor test kit is the least of customs worries.
I can virtually guarantee you will not have any trouble.
And if you do...so what....oh my GOD!!! I accidentally bought a kit over the internet and didnt know it was a restricted item in Canada.
Good luck..you will be fine.
All right Bart, no worries. I will buy the kit and bring it back in my luggage. Did a quick search for pool supplies near where I will be in Massachusetts and came up with this; Leslies Swimming Pool Supplies. They have a kit that looks like a Taylor knock-off. Or maybe it's just a re-branding.
Take a look -> http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Wat...:400000/I/81330
Looks like rebranding to me....in the meantime I came up with a great story.
You can say you have OCD about pools, and when you travel you always bring your own kit with to test the water before you get in....just put a few drops of water in your mixing tubes to make it look like you used it.
Who can argue with that??? Funny...I just made myself laugh!
You crack me up
The hotel I'm staying at does have a pool.... -
Don't worry about it.
A taylor test kit is the least of customs worries.
I can virtually guarantee you will not have any trouble.
And if you do...so what....oh my GOD!!! I accidentally bought a kit over the internet and didnt know it was a restricted item in Canada.
Good luck..you will be fine.
All right Bart, no worries. I will buy the kit and bring it back in my luggage. Did a quick search for pool supplies near where I will be in Massachusetts and came up with this; Leslies Swimming Pool Supplies. They have a kit that looks like a Taylor knock-off. Or maybe it's just a re-branding.
Take a look -> http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Wat...:400000/I/81330
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Is there any difference between Clorox 6% and for example, walmart's great value 6%? I read something about lye...
Thank you,
oldparr
Good question. I've been using the Great Value brand on my tub for a few months now. All appears OK and easy as pie. Since you brought it up It would be nice to know if there are any not so obvious adverse reactions.
Just curious, about how much chlorine do you apply and at what frequency? I am using from between 150 - 200 ml each day (or hot tub use) and it leaves me with a free chlorine of 2.0 or less.
thanks,
Greg
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BTW, I did go to the "pool store" and get my water tested the other day and had a chat with the "pro" about using bleach. He didn't say not a good idea at first but then warned me that I could potentially void the warranty on my spa. He mentioned that there are other things in bleach (not specified) that can harm or "pit" the jets and damage the chrome. That bleach is highly corrosive and could damage the metals in the pump etc. He also said there are things added to the chlorine products that help to protect the hot tub parts.
hmmm....
When I look at the bottle of bleach it has the same warning symbols as my chlorine. Don't drink it basically and careful not to splash it in your eyes or on your skin.
I am using the standard 6% bleach. All is says is sodium hypochlorite.
Greg
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Thanks for the idea. I checked the UPS store and below are the details on delivery. The cost estimate BTW was $16. Not bad, but I don't like the part about "rates don't include customs, brokerage" or "Not available to ship any prohibited articles outside the U.S."
Still thinking this over.
Greg
>>clip>>
UPS Standard to Canada
Guaranteed Day-definite Delivery to Canada
UPS Standard to Canada offers guaranteed, fully tracked ground delivery for your routine shipments.
* Guaranteed, fully tracked, door-to-door ground delivery from the 48 contiguous states to all addresses in the 10 Canadian provinces
Service Availability
* Available in the 48 contiguous states for delivery to all delivery addresses in the 10 Canadian provinces
* Rates do not include customs clearance
* Brokerage charges, duties, and taxes will be billed to importer unless otherwise indicated by shipper
* Government regulations require export documentation for most international shipments
* Not available to ship any prohibited articles outside the U.S.
For specific guarantee details and service availability, visit your neighborhood The UPS Store location.
Benefits
* Up-to-the-minute tracking information makes UPS Standard to Canada an economical choice for your routine shipments
* Reliable service to all addresses in Canada’s 10 provinces from the 48 contiguous states
* Three free delivery attempts for unclaimed shipments
* Automatic protection against package loss or damage up to a value of US$100
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Taylor has a single master distributor in Canada who marks up the product cost. Buying the product in Boston and bringing it over is your best bet. The lowest online price for the Taylor K-2006 I know of is here, but I don't think they will ship to Canada.
Found out its the customs cost of bringing it over the border as its a controlled substance, well at least some part of it is.
What I'm wondering is should I a) place the kit in a checked bag or
take the liquids out and put them into a ziplock bag. As a whole kit in a luggage and being a controlled substance they may not like it. Broken out and placed in the clear plastic bag with my toothpaste might go easier, provided they are not over the allotted 100ml x 10 (1 Litre) liquid maximum. I will see if I can find the details on all liquids.
thanks,
Greg
Why don't you just ship them ups??? No need to tell them what's in there.
I would guess they will x-ray the package and then send it to customs, then I get to pay a whopping bill just to get my package which I've already paid for the contents.
They do look in packages right, otherwise the drug traffickers would be all over this.. if it's too easy there is a reason...
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Taylor has a single master distributor in Canada who marks up the product cost. Buying the product in Boston and bringing it over is your best bet. The lowest online price for the Taylor K-2006 I know of is here, but I don't think they will ship to Canada.
Found out its the customs cost of bringing it over the border as its a controlled substance, well at least some part of it is.
What I'm wondering is should I a) place the kit in a checked bag or
take the liquids out and put them into a ziplock bag. As a whole kit in a luggage and being a controlled substance they may not like it. Broken out and placed in the clear plastic bag with my toothpaste might go easier, provided they are not over the allotted 100ml x 10 (1 Litre) liquid maximum. I will see if I can find the details on all liquids.
thanks,
Greg
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I am looking to buy the Taylor K-2006 kit here in Ottawa Canada and have found it on-line for around $150. It sells in the U.S. for $55. What gives? (Our dollar is almost at par now)
I am going to Boston next week and could buy one but what will customs say about all those liquids in my checked bag? I guess it should be fine and perhaps all I would need to do is pay the duty? Anybody have experience with this?
Greg
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Greg, have you had your cyanuric acid level tested yet? Also, is there some reason that you're reluctant to drain and refill your tub?
I am not sure how to get the "cyanuric acid level" measured. This is not given by the spa testing place here. They did give me my Total Dissolved Solids and it was 1700. I just use simple strips and will invest in a proper kit one day soon. I guess the Taylor (??) kit would be sufficient.
I'm trying to stretch the drain and refill into November as it get's quite cold here and we have long winters. So my hope is to do it in November and last until March when there is a chance of a warmer day for the next change. I'd be nervous trying to drain it and have something freeze in Jan. or Feb. In Ottawa Canada it get's down to -20 -30 Celsius in those months.
Greg
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OK, it was good to just hear that there is no "normal" amount to add, or no "expect to add x" daily. I just need to up my dose. I have a clear plastic squeeze bottle marked with two oz. ticks and was adding 2 before and 2 after and it was not enough. I'll mark it at 5 oz points and start using that nightly.
We are still in the hot tub honeymoon stage and use it nightly for say 45 minutes or more. Sometimes just myself but usually the two of us. Our two boys get in there once a week as well. I've also been adding potasium monopersulfite to oxizide the waste with good results. Makes the water more fizzy and light.
I keep a log so in a few days I should know what our expected bleach additions should be and will report back. It would be good to be able to give people a rough guideline for the bleach method.
Greg
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I have been using Clorox 6% bleach now for a few days and find it hard to keep a free chlorine reading. I either go to zero or close to it. I am adding 4 oz or about 120 ml of bleach before or after using the tub and the next day it's close to zero. With a 280 gallon tub on a daily use with two bathers what amount of bleach is normal?
The pH is 7.3 and TA about 140.
I was expecting to be adding around 2 oz of bleach a day but maybe that was unrealistic. Now it looks like 4 tbsp is barely enough. Maybe 6-8 is what I need. Am way off base here or is that the norm?
BTW the water is better now with bleach, that is a given. Feels and smells better and looks great. Less foam and feels right. pH is not bouncing around although TA is high.
thanks,
Greg
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Greg,
While you are still using Trichlor, if your TA is getting low you can use pH Up (Spa Up) to raise the pH and TA at the same time. With a higher TA level, the aeration of the jets will help keep the pH from dropping as quickly. The addition of Borates does raise pH, but it only raises TA half as much so your TA will drop over time if you just use Borates for pH control. The use of bleach would help you out IF you used that instead of the Trichlor (or turned down the automatic feeder on the Trichlor floater).
As for what to do with N2 after the next refill, you have two choices. You can follow the N2 low-chlorine recipe which is mostly using MPS regularly and occasionally Dichlor (plus using Dichlor initially on startup) OR you can use the Dichlor-then-bleach method described in Nitro's link. Either method will work fine with N2. The former is more expensive due to the MPS and it completely avoids chlorine during soaking while the latter is less expensive and has a small amount of chlorine during the soak (the way most people do it which is to add the bulk of the bleach after a soak).
Some people find MPS irritating so if that happens to you then you can try Dichlor-then-bleach. Which method to use is up to you -- most people are pretty happy with either method, though as limulus noted the low-chlorine recipe does still require occasional Dichlor to keep the water clean and clear.
Richard
Richard, All,
I went out today and bought Dichlor and MPS. I took out the floater yesterday with the tabs of Trichlor, so my chlorine dropped to zero and I started using bleach. I did two installs of about 2-3 tbsp or 90ml of bleach and each brought the free chlorine up by 1 point. So I should now have 2. I also gave it a nice 100 gram dose of potassium monopersulfite (SpaBoss is their brand) and will be using the tub tonight (soon) to see how it feels. The water is old so its in need of that flush as I am planning in November, but I thought I'd get a trial period going now with this new method to see how things go.
If things go well I will have a bunch of chemicals that will go onto a shelf in the laundry room. I find it funny how all these expensive yet easy to use treatments are actually harder on you, the water, and your pocketbook. If more people tuned into this forum and listened to the educated participants they would be much better off.
Here is a list of what I think will be all I or any spa owner really needs to balance and maintain your water.
Dichlor (the most expensive item but only used at the open of a new fill)
MPS (not to bad as you only will use a small amount)
Borax (cheap, and works well and is stable)
Baking soda (it's in my fridge anyhow)
Muriac acid (not expensive- local hardware store)
Clorox bleach (dirt cheap)
And well my Nature2. This is a trial and I'll have to see how this works. At $40 it lasts 4 months, so that is $10 a month.
I'll report back my progress as I think it could benefit people new to the spa thing. I am the typical newby using all the store bought chemicals now switching over to a more natural method, say chemistry based, with all your great help.
Greg
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Richard,
Thanks for the terrific and very explanatory reply. I will start to put "quotes" when I refer to the "Spa Pro" from now on
My current problem is that my addition of Borax (which is borates right?) is raising the pH but my continued use of the Trichlor Tabs is beating it down. I will be changing my water in a months time so I think I will pull the floater now and try some Clorox 6% bleach to see how that reacts. Can't hurt and will likely start to stabilize my pH drift.
In November once I've dumped the water I will follow Nitro's method, with the addition of the Nature2.
Greg
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According to this post, Greg is using a combination of lithium hypochlorite and Trichlor tabs. That explains the low pH (from the Trichlor) and probably the poor water quality (from high CYA from the Trichlor).
FYI, DMH from bromine tabs will not show up in any of the standard tests -- it does not show up in the CYA test as that test uses melamine to form a very specific precipitate of melamine cyanurate (at low pH to force more precipitate).
Richard,
Yes, the low pH problem was solved thanks to all your help. It is certainly my sanitizers.
The main point of this thread was figuring out how best to raise the pH and not the TA. The Muriac acid does the trick. It's been a few days now and the TA has stabilized. I am slowly adding Borax and seeing the pH raise (slightly) while TA pop a bit then go back down. Just what I wanted.
Greg
Simple Solution
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
Test strips are not accurate enough. Trust me, I just got a drop test kit and after each reading I check again with the test strip to see how far off it is.. often quite a bit.
I've got a baseline now for the two types of test strips I use off my drop test kit. They can tell me if sanitizer is present and if it's at a decent level, a fair estimate of the pH, and usually a very rough guess of TA.
If things are not balanced you'll start to see it later, two weeks is not long enough.
Greg