OttawaGreg
-
Posts
115 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by OttawaGreg
-
-
You can get muriatic acid at home hardware/depot. Be VERY careful with it! That stuff is seriously toxic.. but works like a charm.
My setup uses an ozanator, will this be alright. What precautions should I take when using it? How long do I have to wait from using it to going in the tub.
Also, how much do I use, is there a reference chart or something?
thanks for the helph
I carefully poor 30ml of acid into a plastic container (ice cream, yogurt) that is filled with tap water to dilute. I then add this to the center of my tub with jest on low so not to splash. I tend not to add more then 30ml per treatment then measure the effect a few hours later. You could use the tub probably 30 minutes after adding it.
No issue with ozanator.
Greg
-
What is your Total Alkalinity? If your pH is too high and won't come down, then your TA is too high. You would also get better results if you used muriatic acid rather than dry acid.
Well I just check and th PH finally dropped to 7.6.
TA is at 60ppm.
As for the muriatic acid, can I get that Home depot or a hardware store. Also, is that a liquid,and do I just pour it in?
Thanks
You can get muriatic acid at home hardware/depot. Be VERY careful with it! That stuff is seriously toxic.. but works like a charm.
-
Hehe, while you guys were enjoying a soaking last night I was refilling my tub in -18! Wind chill not included
My Onzen Version 7 got installed a couple of days ago. Got to dump in the salt tonight!
I am seriously hoping I never need to dump water in that cold a weather! Yikes. Did you have to do anything special to protect your plumbing from freezing or cracking? Or did you just do it very fast?
I am curious about these salt water systems. How long do they go before you need to dump and refill? I am using the Dychlor/Bleach method and hope to go 6 months, so May 1st when it's warmed up i'll be cleaning house...
Greg
-
Here in Ottawa Ontario, Canada, it will get cold tonight. It is now -15 degrees Celsius, which is 5 deg. Fahrenheit. It's going down to -22 C which is around -5 F. With the wind it feels cooler.
I went out tonight as I needed to top up the bleach anyhow, so as my wife was saying "are you crazy" I headed out like a polar bear and jumped into the tub. I find it harder to get in then get out as when you are finally ready to leave the tub your body is so warm right to the bone that you don't feel a thing on our way back inside. My tub was at max tonight, 104-105F.
I enjoyed it allot and wore a wool hat just too keep extra warm because of the wind.
Just wondering what my other Canuck hot tub enthusiasts are doing? I hope you are taking the leap and going in even though the weather is not so friendly, as I've found it takes a bit of nerve but it's worth it.
Greg
-
Our tub water has been in great shape with sustained family use. My problems stem from having friends over for hot tubbing. It seems most times, the water gets quite cloudy ( yesterday was awful!) and sometimes thin flakes floating and some minor foam. After a couple of days, it clears up back to normal.
I am pretty sure this is detergent in bathing suits. Any ideas / thoughts? If this is the primary case, I don't know what to do - can't have my daughters teenage friends hot tub "aut naturel" and it would seem ackward to issue friends a bathing suit that I know has been laundered / rinsed properly.
Thanks in advance.
Underarm deodorant, perfumes, cologne, etc. They all add to it. I just add extra bleach after. For myself I wipe underarms before I go in. I don't hassle guests.
BTW with jets on high some of these soaps will float and can be skimmed.
Greg
-
The only way that the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level would have risen is by adding stabilized chlorine (either Dichlor or Trichlor) or CYA itself (cyanuric acid powder or Instant Pool Water Conditioner).
Did you add Dichlor a few weeks ago -- is that what you meant? Also, why did the water go south, from an unusually high bather load without enough chlorine added or something like that?
The water went south because I forgot to top up the bleach after the last use and it was low, then I was away for a few days unexpectedly so it got no maintenance. When I got back it was light brown tinge and bad odor. I shocked it well with Dychlor and MPS, then lots of bleach later. It came back very well and looks fine. I just hadn't taken a full drop test reading in a while so I did them all and found TA higher then usual and pH as well. Now I see CYA up near 100 and wonder if the water will stay OK or am I going to need to dump this eventually.
My hope is to lower the CYA and maintain the water as I was doing with Bleach & MPS. It was going so well!
Greg
-
FYI: bleach and lithium hypochlorite are both unstabilized (i.e. neither adds to CYA) and neither increases CH either. However, lithium hypochlorite is 5-6 times as expensive as bleach for the equivalent amount of added FC.
Thanks all, BTW I am using the bleach method, have been for months. Somehow my CA has risen and I'd like to being it down. I guess then I will keep using bleach and topping up the water with fresh and over time it will drop on it's own?
I had to dump a bunch of chlorine in a few weeks ago when the water went south. I guess that is what caused it.
Greg
-
I'm into the 4th month of Dychlor/Bleach method and found my CYA has risen from it's starting point of 60. Other then one trouble from neglect the water has been very stage for the past few months.
Current reading tonight show things are up a bit;
pH=7.8, TA=100, CYA=90-100.
My usual readings were pH=7.5, TA=80.
The Taylor test kit just says to lower CYA to use a non-stabilized chlorine for a while. lithium hypochlorite is the only chlorine I have not listed as stabilized, so I assume it's not stable then?
Should I then stop using bleach entirely and switch to lithium hypochlorite or just top up with lithium hypochlorite but continue to use bleach? I've been using MPS as a top up once a week until now.
thanks in advance for any ideas. BTW, the water is fine, I have no foaming issues and it looks and smells great, so I'm not sure I have a real problem here and am just checking. I guess another thing I could to is bring a sample in and get TDS tested.
thanks,
Greg
-
Does anyone have any suggestions for a good test kit available in Ontario Canada for a Bromine tub?
I know Taylor kits are the best, but they are hard to find here (Peterborough) and are expensive as compared to purchasing in the US.
Of course, want to measure PH, TA, CA and Free or Total Bromine.
Thanks
I just got mine last week...Taylor K2106 as recommended here on the forum for bromine hot tubs (I have an Arctic Summit since end of November, bromine and don't know what I'm doing either
The only place I could find it was from the Canadian distributor in Newmarket. I paid $176. including UPS delivery charge (I live in Mississauga). The company is Lowry & Associates. I checked all the pool companies in Oakville, Burlington, Mississauga, Etobicoke and couldn't find this kit anywhere else.Good LUCK!!!
The markup is crazy. $176 cdn is allot. When I travel to the US on business I bought a Leslie pool kit that is almost the equivalent for $40. See if there is a Leslie pool store over the border from where you are.. or just keep it in mind when you travel..
Found the thread on this>
http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.ph...p;hl=ottawagreg
Greg
-
Greg,
The silver ions in Nature2 should have prevented uncontrolled bacterial growth so I'm not sure where the cloudiness came from unless the levels were too low (i.e. Nature2 wasn't working as it should) or it was something else (some mold or algae, though the latter is rare in spas). Also note that the silver ion rapidly decomposes the most irritating component of MPS which is potassium persulfate (aka potassium peroxydisulfate) so if you stop using the N2 see if you find irritation from the MPS, especially if you add any before the soak. Also, the silver ion combined with MPS provides for greater sanitation, though that's mostly to pass EPA DIS/TSS-12 which is an extraordinarily strong standard that doesn't represent reality when stabilized chlorine (Dichlor or Trichlor) is used and builds up even a little. For the record, MPS alone is not an EPA-registered sanitizer.
Richard
Hey Richard,
The recipe for Nature 2 has you adding more MPS and Dichlor then I want to being on the bleach method. If I'm going to be adding that much MPS & Dichlor then why do I need the Nature 2? That is the question that bothers me.
I was convinced by the sales guy to give it a try and I am. Only once I take it out of my tub in March will I see it's true effect. I currently use a good deal of bleach after each use and say 1-2 tbsp of MPS a week. If I am going to be away for more then 1-2 nights then I drop in a floater with a tab of compressed chlorine. This is what I didn't do after it's last use and didn't visit it for 4 days. The water was a shade of brown, scary. It was just the water though and I shocked it and it's back to pristine self. I just wonder where the Nature 2 was during this "holiday" ;-).
Greg
-
Why I need this information is because the system I am putting in place will have me using Clorox 6% Bleach with a Nature 2 spa system and MPS... Because of this I must know every health risk there is so I can weigh out weather it is beneficial to use... I would like even information that was "heard through the grapevine" so I can study to see if it carries any weight... So information without facts will even help... Don’t worry about giving me that kind of information, I will study and base my decisions on facts and studies alone. Thank you s much for the time invested in helping me! Best Regards, Karl
Karl,
Just an FYI. I am using Clorox 6% bleach, MPS, and have the Nature2 in my filter. After a recent cloudy water incident, because I was out of town for longer then expected and hadn't topped up the bleach or put in my floater, I am in the opinion that Nature2 does little to nothing. I paid $40 for this thing and when it could/should have kicked in it went absent. Come March I will be removing it and continuing along as I have been and will see if there is any difference. At $40 a four month cartridge that's $10 a month.. for what? ... If all I need to do is add more MPS then fine, I'll add it more often and forgo Nature2.
Just my 2 cents.
Greg
-
First of all I only have a test kit that measures PH and bromine both of which seem to be good. With nothing running the water in my hot tub is clear enough to read the date on a quarter lying on the bottom through it, however as soon as I turn on the pumps the water turns almost white and has kind of a fizz to it. The water will become clear again in about 30 seconds after turning the pumps off. There is no hot tub dealer in the county where I live so it's about eighty miles round trip to go get advise in person. Thus far the dealer has sold me (all Leisure Time brand) Reserve, Enzyme, Bright and Clear, and Foam Down and provided instructions for their use. Follow the dealer's instructions I have made no progress. I am going to invest in a new test kit but am not sure what I need to advise the retailer I will be wanting to test for. So my question is, What all do I want to test for? If you have any advise for keeping my water from turning white in the mean time I will give it a try. Thanks
foaming means one of two things, soap or Total Dissolved Solids (TDS). If you have any soap (detergent left on swim trunks or deodorant, perfume) then it will foam. If your water is old and full of TDS then time to drain.
Get a better test kit BTW. Something that measures CYA, TA, Ph, Chlorine etc. $40
Greg
-
Any particular reason you recommend Boric acid over BORAX? I've been using BORAX powder and find it works great.
thanks,
Greg
Borax is fine to use. I did not mean to imply that it was not good to use.
My primary reason to prefer boric acid over the Borax is because the water will contain both borate and boric acid. The percentage of each will depend on the pH of the water. Here are some values for boric acid and borate based on the pH.
pH = 8.3 Boric acid = 91 % Borate ion = 9 %.
pH = 8.2 Boric acid = 93 % Borate ion = 7 %.
pH = 8.1 Boric acid = 94 % Borate ion = 6 %.
pH = 8.0 Boric acid = 95 % Borate ion = 5 %.
pH = 7.9 Boric acid = 96 % Borate ion = 4 %.
pH = 7.8 Boric acid = 97 % Borate ion = 3 %.
pH = 7.7 Boric acid = 97.5 % Borate ion = 2.5 %.
pH = 7.6 Boric acid = 98 % Borate ion = 2 %.
pH = 7.5 Boric acid = 98.4 % Borate ion = 1.6 %.
As you can see, most of the "Borates" will be in the form of boric acid at normal spa pH.
This makes using the boric acid more pH neutral than using the Borax. Using the Borax requires the addition of muriatic acid to convert the borate ions into boric acid.
Using pure boric acid requires little or no additional chemicals except for perhaps a little pH increaser to convert some of the boric acid into borate ions.
Thanks for that explanation, great. I use BORAX to raise my pH as well so I'm not really looking to be pH neutral.
Greg
-
Adding 50 ppm borates from Borax or boric acid will help stabilize your pH. I recommend that you use the boric acid instead of the Borax.
Any particular reason you recommend Boric acid over BORAX? I've been using BORAX powder and find it works great.
thanks,
Greg
-
What about a bleach floater?
When I am going to be away for a few days I'll throw back in my floater with one smarttab, which keeps it going till I get back. Once back I remove it and go back to bleach. If I will be away for a week or longer I would just add more tablets to the floater.
Would be nice if there was a floater equivalent that uses bleach. Of course being a liquid it will dissipate immediately. Is there a solid form of bleach?
Greg
-
Can anyone tell me if the local hot tub guy is a crackpot? He told me never to put Borates (Gentlespa / Borax) into the spa because it creates a white-ish cottage cheese consistency goo on the bottom of the tub. As well, I told him to go to poolcalculator.com where it said to add it, and he said he'd never heard of it, and didn't know whether or not to trust it (although I did hear him calling his co-worker marveling about it as I left...)
He also said drop tests were only necessary if you have major problems. I really like him the person, but don't know if I like him the hot tub guy at this point. So on to my question - is it possible to create "goo" from adding borates??
#1. Drop test kits prevent major problems. On that point alone I would disagree with him and question his experience.
I've used borax in my tub (small amounts) and it softens the water. Safe to use period. Goo on the bottom of the tub? hmm.. if anything goo would float. I think you need to find someone more level and informed to talk to.
Just my opinion...
Greg
-
My CalderaSpa came factory default set to two cleaning cycles of 1.5 hours each. I quickly turned that down to 1.0 hour each (for a total of two hours of cleaning cycles in a 24h period. That has served me well. I guess it depends on water quantity. My tub holds 280 gallons, 1050 litres.
Greg
-
Just for the record. Using the dichlor/bleach method with a TA stable at 75 for the past few months I've used a dash of borax and baking soda to raise the pH when needed. A dash means two table spoons maybe every 3->4 weeks. My TA has not needed much adjustment since I've moved to using this method. Stop using all those chemicals and save yourself some money and hassle.
Greg
Same here - I've been using the Dichlor/chlorox method for more than 3 months now. My TA stays at around 70-80, and my PH around 7.4, and I rarely need to adjust. Only difference is I've not yet needed to use any borax or baking soda.
Mike,
Just as a note to you on Borax. My pH stays around 7.5-7.6 and when it falls to 7.4 I use that as an excuse to add some borites (borax) to soften and stabilize the water while raising pH. There have been many threads on this and I am still not 100% sure why we should want to add Borites if for no other reason then raising the pH while not affecting the TA. This was the first reason I started to use it instead of pH-up (or other chemicals) but noticed it made the water soft. Hard to describe but the water would just feel better and definitely the balancing was made easy. I think a dash of Borax helps the water but can't tell you how and why exactly.
Just thought I'd feed that snip-it of info back to the community.
Greg
-
...added ph increaser (as it was low, although it now reads high?? above the range of the test strip), and added alkalinity increaser to get in range (now about 150).
You should generally avoid adding pH increaser. The best way to adjust your pH is to adjust your alkalinity to the point where it keeps your pH stable.
I think that you will find an alkalinity of 150 to be too high. Most people get a stable pH with an alkalinity of about 80 ppm while using dichlor and about 60 ppm when using bleach.
Just for the record. Using the dichlor/bleach method with a TA stable at 75 for the past few months I've used a dash of borax and baking soda to raise the pH when needed. A dash means two table spoons maybe every 3->4 weeks. My TA has not needed much adjustment since I've moved to using this method. Stop using all those chemicals and save yourself some money and hassle.
As it was the holidays and I was going to be away for 4-5 days I dug out the floater and dropped in one tablet of trichlor. That was all that was needed for the duration. I tested the water tonight and it had residual chlorine 2.x and 7.5pH. I had dropped the temperature down to 97 while gone. The tabled was 1/4 left and I threw it out.
Long and short of it get your TA fixed low (<85) and use the dichlor/bleach method and it will save you hassle and $$.
Greg
-
As you found out, you should not use "special" bleach products such as ones that are splashless or for outdoor use. These have thickeners in them and with aeration they can foam. Just scoop out the foam/bubbles, if possible, and eventually they will dissipate, probably in a few days. Get some 6% Clorox Regular bleach. If there is still foaming after a few days, then you can try one of the standard spa de-foaming products -- they might work. Also, if your calcium hardness is below 120 ppm, try raising it to that level as this can also reduce foaming. I don't think that will be necessary, however, as described in this thread where Greg accidentally used HE (high efficiency) bleach that was thicker and he said the following:
After using the "wrong bleach" I just had to give it a few days (and rinse the filter) and things are OK again, no foaming. So, just use REGULAR 6% Clorox bleach. Don't try anything else period!
Well I guess I won't be the last to get caught with the wrong bleach. Not to worry, it will dissipate. You didn't add very much so scoop out the foam with jets on high and clean your filter. Give it a few days and all will be well. Don't bother with anti-foaming agents, I didn't. Stick with the regular Clorox bleach, just watch the packaging as they like to change the design on the labels etc.
Greg
-
Just for fun I thought I'd ask a question my wife posed tonight while we were soaking in the tub with huge white snowflakes descending on us. Will the snow effect the pH? (or anything else in the balance?)
Obviously the minute amount of snow will not change things but I thought the question funny and good for the forum. I'm into month 2 of the dychlor/bleach method and all is well.
Here in Ottawa the snow is falling and it is a very enjoyable time to be in the hot tub. Wear a tuc (warm hat) if you need it. The drinks stay very cold which is nice! I had a bit of ice in my hair.
Greg,
-
Here is a quick reference to using the Dichlor/Bleach method. (i.e. Chlorine)
Please see the full guide for a detailed explanation. Top link below.
Initial Startup Procedure
1. Balance water by lowering TA to ~80 ppm. See link below (Lowering TA)
2. Aerate until pH is consistently 7.4-7.8. Lower TA if pH rises above 7.8. Raise TA if pH stays below 7.4.
3. Test Calcium, and make note of it. (100-150 ppm) is ok.
4. Add 50ppm Borates (highly recommended)
5. Shock tub to 10 ppm FC using Dichlor the first night after filling.
6. Wait 24 hours and test FC again in order to calculate Chlorine Demand. (See link below)
7. Start using tub.
8. Continue to use Dichlor after soaks (approx 7 ppm FC per person per hour) (or 3.5 tsp)
9. After you have added ~34 ppm FC (~30 ppm CYA) using Dichlor, switch to Clorox 6% unscented bleach. Takes about a week or so.
Ongoing Maintenance
After the initial startup procedure above, you'll basically do the following:
Check FC every day or two (and before soaks).
Check CD as needed (once a week to start).
Add plenty of Chlorine after soaks (and as needed) so FC NEVER drops to zero, and CD stays low.
Add MPS before/during high bather loads to help out the Chlorine, and keep CD low. (Optional but recommended)
Check pH once a week, and adjust TA as needed.
Rinse filter every week or two, depending on use.
Check CYA every 3 months, and raise by using Dichor if needed. CYA will drop slowly over time.
Use Sea Klear (clarifier) if you experience foam, or cloudy water.
Water Change
After 6 months, change water and start over.
If this is a new tub change water after the first month, then continue bi-yearly.
Consider using a Spa Flush to clean out pipes before draining 1-2 times a year.
Clean filter with TSP every water change.
Lastly, if you let the FC drop to zero for any length of time, the tub is prior owned or you're having serious medical issues (i.e. rashes etc.), consider doing a Decontamination. (see below)
Happy tubbing!
Hey Nitro,
Great quick ref. guide. Thanks. BTW, I adjust the calcium hardness first then pH & TA. Is that not the correct procedure? The CH will dictate the needed pH & TA.
Also, I add BORAX (as borates). I use it to raise pH when/if it drops but don't go out of my way to use it as a buffer. Do you think it warrants a step in the process?
Greg
BTW, just over one month and a half now using this exact formula and things are looking great. I barely need to adjust anything...(using allot of bleach though ;-)
-
Ok, so I have a new Arctic, using the bromine system. Got the tub delivered and set up on November 20th, so 2 1/2 weeks ago. All was well the first week. I brought a specimen in for analysis this past w/e and my alkalinity was low...dealer recomended 1.5 caps of "perfect balance". Meanwhile, at the same time my home test-strip analysis also showed that my bromine was low....but this wasn't mentioned in my in-store analysis. Ok fine, I went with the experts and added the perfect balance on Saturday. Yesterday (Monday) bromine still showing low, so I added 6 new pucks....TA was "ok" but still a little low I thought. This morning (14 hours after bromine addition) there is very little change in the bromine level, and ph is showing high...alkalinity is still roughly the same in the lowish-to ok range. I know the written instructions say to wait 48 hours for chemistry changes after additives, but I feel there should be some slow, incremental change...or am I wrong on that? Also, the test strip colours never seem to match anything on the bottle label...like nothing precisely...so it's guess-work more-or-less in trying to match up the colours. I'm in the medical field and used to very precise test strips when it comes to measuring body fluids (LOL, sorry)....so this is quite frustrating to me!!
Any help, advice or next steps advice?
thanks a million!!
You sound just like I was when I started out. Do yourself the best favor you can by going out and getting a drop test kit. Do NOT try and balance the water using strips. Put the strips on the shelf for a few months and once you get a better Idea of balancing using the drop test kit you can use the strips to get a quick idea of sanitizer, pH and TA. Taylor make good kits. If you're in the US then Leslie's pools have re-brands that are cheap.
Greg
I'm in Mississauga...so it's a Taylor kit? Would I buy this at my Arctic store, or somewhere else? Thanks!
I buy mine when on business in the US. There must be an equivalent here in Canada, just haven't found one yet. Sorry... I will keep my eyes open though...
Greg
-
Ok, so I have a new Arctic, using the bromine system. Got the tub delivered and set up on November 20th, so 2 1/2 weeks ago. All was well the first week. I brought a specimen in for analysis this past w/e and my alkalinity was low...dealer recomended 1.5 caps of "perfect balance". Meanwhile, at the same time my home test-strip analysis also showed that my bromine was low....but this wasn't mentioned in my in-store analysis. Ok fine, I went with the experts and added the perfect balance on Saturday. Yesterday (Monday) bromine still showing low, so I added 6 new pucks....TA was "ok" but still a little low I thought. This morning (14 hours after bromine addition) there is very little change in the bromine level, and ph is showing high...alkalinity is still roughly the same in the lowish-to ok range. I know the written instructions say to wait 48 hours for chemistry changes after additives, but I feel there should be some slow, incremental change...or am I wrong on that? Also, the test strip colours never seem to match anything on the bottle label...like nothing precisely...so it's guess-work more-or-less in trying to match up the colours. I'm in the medical field and used to very precise test strips when it comes to measuring body fluids (LOL, sorry)....so this is quite frustrating to me!!
Any help, advice or next steps advice?
thanks a million!!
You sound just like I was when I started out. Do yourself the best favor you can by going out and getting a drop test kit. Do NOT try and balance the water using strips. Put the strips on the shelf for a few months and once you get a better Idea of balancing using the drop test kit you can use the strips to get a quick idea of sanitizer, pH and TA. Taylor make good kits. If you're in the US then Leslie's pools have re-brands that are cheap.
Greg
Canadian Winter & Enjoting The Spa
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
I guess by luck we bought a house that had cedar hedges 6 feet tall. They have since grown to a think and tall 10 feet and do a decent job of keeping the wind out. They can't stop it but it helps. When it's very windy I don't bother to go out as it takes all the rising steam away.. hence no fun..
It's a balmy -5 tonight so the wife has our neighbor over. I find it feels better below -10.
happy winter tubbing!
Greg