OttawaGreg
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Posts posted by OttawaGreg
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I have recently joined the group of unhappy hot tubbers after just using my new $10,000 Beachcomber for three months. My doctor said the rash is ezcema (which I had as a kid but eventually outgrew). He prescribed a 2.5% Sarna-HC - which is slowly making the rash go away. However, I am quite fearful of refilling the tub and trying it out again - but we will.
My doctor also said that because it is ONLY the two of us using the hot tub that the bromine level does not have to be as high as recommended - try to reduce the amount, rinse with a shower and gentle soap (Dove unscented) afterward and apply a good moisturizer. He also said that when the PH rises that the bromine settles deeper into the skin which will make the rash worse.
I spoke with a second doctor the next day on a casual basis and she said she has had a hot tub for years (is the sole user of it) and also has very sensitive skin. She said she does not use the recommended levels of chemicals - treats it one every two weeks for maintenance - does not use the recommended bromine level and dumps her water after three months and has no problems at all.
That is my experience - I would LOVE to hear from anyone who has tried reducing the chemicals - only if it is you or you and your partner using the tub would be the most helpful I think but my ears are wide open to all.
I am sad to think I may have to sell my brand new tub.
Thanks for listening and hopefully thanks for some input . . . Eleanor
I would try the product Silk Balance
What is Silk Balance exactly? Read their website and only see it described as "revolutionary" with a whole bush of user recommendations. Nothing on what it is and it's contents. Also claims to automatically balance CH, TA, and pH. hmmmm too go to be true usually means....
Greg
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Hi,
Although I am no expert on hot tubs, unfortunately I have first hand expertise on rashes and itches that seem to be related to hot tubs.
After about 2 years of using the tub I started to develop dry itchy patches of skin. At first I thought it was related to the pH of the tub but we corrected the pH and the itch persisted. Then I thought it was the sanitizer. We were using a salt system so we shut that down and switched to bromine - didn't help. Then we moved from bromine to hydrogen peroxide - didn't help. From there we moved to the BBB (bleach, baking soda, borax) method. This BBB didn't help the itch but it is way cheaper ;o)
Long and short, I am pretty much convinced that my skin just reacts to long exposure to hot water. I did go to a dermatologist and she prescrided an over the counter cream called Glaxel Base that does seem to help, plus she put me on an antihistemine (sp) to get the flare up under control. The meds did help but not in the long term.
All I can really say is that you may be reacting to your sanitizer, but then again it could simply be the hot water is drying up your skin. I shold also add that I never had foliculitus - although I thought that is what is was initially.
Good Luck...Tom
My experience is much the same.
Its hot water related not chemical.
Same thing here. I had been using hot tubs for years then got one myself. After about 8 months of using it every 2nd day I developer horrible rashes. There were different types and some I think can be attributed to an intolerance to gluten. Those have gone away now with my *** by the small red itchies persist. They look like foliculi but I don't think they are. Using creams and moisturizers will fix my dry eczema hands and a steroidal ointment will tame the itchies but use the tub and the next day they are back. (very unhappy). No amount of creams etc. afterwords will ward them off. It's just the heat that dries my skin I think.
I have tried not going in the tub for close to a month but the itchies still have not gone away 100%. As long as there are a couple of them and I am feeling good and go in the tub, next day whamo.. they are back and itchie all over. I think I will need to get rid of them entirely before I can go back in for a test.
I have an appointment next month with a gastrointerologist (to detect gluten or other allergy/intolerance). And to see a dermatologist. I am determined to find the root cause here.
This is not a fun thread to discuss but I see I am not alone and if I do get something useful I will return to post it. Good luck to all who suffer with this!
Greg
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You may look up Eczema as well. Symptoms are a little different but treatment is much the same.
I have developed this. After much of the same things you are going through and searching I came to this conclusion. I find that when it breaks out a steriod cream will heal it. BUT if I use a Moisturizing lotion on a daily (even 2x day is better) it keeps it in check most of the time.
Yes, I believe it is (also) eczema on my hands and feet. Very dry at times and sensitive to hot water. So are you still able to use your tub?
I've yet to be 100% clear of any itchies or dryness but tried the tub the other day and even after showering and applying oil I had a rough next day.
I believe the root cause is gluten intolerance.. but that's not been proven yet. OK, we are now way off topic...
Greg
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I think it very unlikely to be the bleach, but in case something like the sodium polyacrylate additive that Clorox uses or who knows what that might be in other bleaches, it was just something to try. If the problem persists with Dichlor or lithium hypochlorite, it would at least eliminate bleach from being the likely culprit.
If non-chlorine shock (MPS) is being used, then that's more likely to be an issue, if this issue is chemical, as it is known that it can be irritating to some.
I ran a test last night. After working out at the gym and taking a long hot shower the itchies were worse then usual.. so I think it's a skin problem with heat. Great.. now that I finally own a hottub. Like I said i've drained and refilled. Used dychlor then tabs (tricholr). I'll not add any bleach for a few weeks then take a dip.. but I think the heat is simply the problem. I will see..\
thanks for all the replies. BTW, I had not been adding MPS, just bleach and borax to raise pH when needed. hmmm maybe the borax has something....
Greg
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Unlikely.
However, your definition of perfect, my be a bacteria's definition of a breading ground.
The water has been dumped, tub scrubbed and refiledl. CH brought to 150, then TA brought up to 90 and pH went straight (on it's own) to 7.5. That is what I call perfect. A little borax and the water is smooth as silk.
Unfortunately, my now dry itchy skin doesn't like the heat.. or the previously used bleach method has ruined it.
Greg
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Is it possible to have a skin allergic reaction to bleach but have no problem with any of the chlorine's? I can't imagine it is possible but I'm getting some little red itchies from the tub. The water is perfect.. so it's not a containment.
Greg
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I was looking for some replacement filters and filter cleaners online when I ran across the following at a site that sells spa chemicals
and maint. items.
"Bleach is bad for filters
Although household bleach may seem to do an adequate job of cleaning, it degrades and weakens the fibers in the filter media, greatly decreasing spa filter life expectancy"
I've been using the Dichlor/bleach Method for the past 4 months...
Any comments??
Ken
hmm.. I guess that would depend on the quantity of bleach. Like if you were to soak it in pure bleach for a longer duration. I just rinse mine in a bucket with say 300-500 ml of bleach/water while I empty and refill the tub. On weekly cleanses I just zap it with the hose water.
Filters cost $30-50 and last on average a year. What is the cost impact of this shortened lifespan? Can't be much.
Now let me ask the question. What did this site want you to use instead of bleach to clean your filter? Did they have their own product per chance?
Greg
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Over the holiday I had a large bather load in the tub (5-6 people for 1/2 hour). I super shocked (I am using bleach) in hopes of killing all the waste, I thought I did okay but I am getting a lot of foaming and I can see some of the oils/residue on the surface of the water. I just dumped and refilled a month ago. I really don't want to refill again. Any recommendations?
With jets on high scoop out the foam. Rinse your filter then do it again.
Greg
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Thanks ChemGeek...
I typically add 4-6 oz of Bleach each day (depending on usage or non-usage). For 3 days in a row I added about 18-20 oz and now the water is clear again. I've learned my lesson and will stay on top of things and not go 2-3 days without checking/adding bleach.
The wife purchased some chlorine tablets at a local Lowes and a floating dispenser and I had her return this item. I don't see such being used or recommended here so I assume there is a reason for this.
Thanks again.
Ken
I have had the same thing happen to me twice. I either forget to pop the lid and add some bleach or go away on business and have come back to cloudy water. I do not want to be performing maintenance every day so I have adopted a happy medium. When I think I won't be using the tub for a few days, or if I go away on a trip I place in the floater with a tablet or two. I will top up first with a hefty dose of bleach and the floater is open only slightly. When I am back in town I remove the floater and go back to bleach. It's better then the water going south and having to dump or shock it. So far the water lasts around 3 months this way and I just enjoy the tub and not worry I forgot to check the water for a day or two.
I am not sure if by having bleach already in the water makes the demand lower, and the tablet dissolves more slowly. When I remove the floater i tip it upside down and place it under the deck for the next time. I've had one tablet last for a few uses this way.
The last time it went cloudy, and only just slightly, I put in some bleach then MPS and the next day it was fine. I of course gave the filter a good cleaning beforehand.
CH=160, TA=80, pH=7.5. I have not had to adjust the water much and only find the pH drifts down and I add some BORAX and baking soda.
Greg
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PaulR, chem geek,
Yes, the tabs are Trichlor. I have it dialed down as much as possible so it is dissolving very slowly. It only lowers the pH a small amount that I compensate with BORAX, which will bring it back to 7.5 and make the water softer. Even that is very seldom.
The daily requirement for bleach was too much for me to maintain, especially in the dead of winter when it goes a few days without use. I find this is a decent compromise between going all spa chemicals and the daily maintenance with bleach only. We'll see how long the water lasts...
cheers,
Greg
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Well I had used the Dychlor then Bleach method on my last fill and went to 5 months before having to dump and refill. I am happy with that but think I could have gone another month or so had it not been for an incident where I was out of town and the water went south. I needed to shock it heavily to bring it back and in doing so brought the TDS to the roof.
As I am the only one maintaining the tub, other use it but don't test or add anything, I need a solution that works for someone who either; a) doesn't want to have daily maintenance or
might be away for days at a time. I never found I could add enough Bleach to keep a sufficient CL reserve. I guess when we use the tub we use it allot and the beach would need daily maintenance. I've since gone back to using the floater. I have it dialed all the way down so there is only a very small opening and I add just one puck at a time. It lasts a long while, up to a week, and I still use bleach after each use and for shocking.
If I don't use the tub for a few days then test it I usually find CL >5. The pH is stable and does not need adjusting often. So this is my new hot tub method. A slightly modified Dychlor/Bleach method what works for me. I gather the water won't last quite as long but the winters are not as cold as they used to be and I can refill in March now.
Any comments?
Greg
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I wouldn't use the roach killer, just go to Echards drug store and get boric acid, ask the pharmacist. Just keep looking at the drug stores till you find it. Its the best stuff to use, no side affects.
Once I added the boric acid, all my numbers have stayed the same, very good item to use.
The pool calculator says to use, Add 16 0z by weight or 17oz by volume on 425 gal water
Rick
Another easy way to add borites is BORAX. You can pick-up a box at Wallmart, Home Hardware etc. It's used to augment laundry soap. I've been using it to raise pH/TA and find it makes the water softer.
Greg
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I know this is a topic for the other forum, but I also know there are allot of good resources in this one so I'll post a copy here as well just in case.
I just dumped and re-filled my tub and there is a new sound emanating from the back when the jets are on high. It sounds like a "sluck" or "clack" sound. It is sort of like the jets are having trouble pushing out the water or something is knocking around in a jet. But, I have open-closed all jets one by one, turned all dials and tried all different settings and it has no effect, the sound stays.
I called the shop yesterday and the service guy mentioned there could be something dislodged in the heater and clacking around, or a clip may have come loose. As it's under warranty I have no cost to replace the heater he says. I wonder why it started this just after a fill?
The manual talked about air getting trapped in the lines or something and showed a picture of how to loosen a manual trap of sorts to let the air escape, but my tub pump did not look like the diagram. The service guy said likely not the issue.
The tub is a Caldera Spa Cumberland model. That's 280 gallons.
As I just did the fill, and the noise isn't that loud, and I assume I am not doing further damage, the service guy said its up to me if I want to get this fixed now or later. They would need to drain it for part replacement. Perhaps the sound will work it's way "away", given time so I should wait a few weeks.
OttawaGreg
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I just dumped and re-filled my tub and there is a new sound emanating from the back when the jets are on high. It sounds like a "sluck" or "clack" sound. It is sort of like the jets are having trouble pushing out the water or something is knocking around in a jet. But, I have open-closed all jets one by one, turned all dials and tried all different settings and it has no effect, the sound stays.
I called the shop yesterday and the service guy mentioned there could be something dislodged in the heater and clacking around, or a clip may have come loose. As it's under warranty I have no cost to replace the heater he says. I wonder why it started this just after a fill?
The manual talked about air getting trapped in the lines or something and showed a picture of how to loosen a manual trap of sorts to let the air escape, but my tub pump did not look like the diagram. The service guy said likely not the issue.
The tub is a Caldera Spa Cumberland model. That's 280 gallons.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Greg
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Just making sure, but do you understand that the TDS increase is also 16.5 ppm (or slightly higher) because the oxygen in the hypochlorite goes away when the chlorine gets consumed/used? So the TDS that is net added after accounting for chlorine usage/consumption IS salt and essentially the same as that salt amount.
OK, it's official.. the geeks have hijacked the thread ;-) time for a dip...
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Well it's a near miracle you've been able to go as long as you have without changing the water given your bather load and smaller tub. There's no way you would have gone that long with Dichlor-only. You would have been adding over 200 ppm CYA each month in that case.
Yes, sweating more would result in a higher bather load and need more chlorine. Even so, it just seems that your ozonator either isn't working or is awfully weak. Bubbles don't mean it's working -- it just mean that air is getting pumped through the system, but the corona discharge (or possibly UV) part of the system may be defective. If you can capture any of those bubbles in an jar filled with water that you invert, then you can remove the jar and smell those bubbles to see if you can detect the typical ozone "electrical smell".
Another to-do for this weekend. Submerge a container and have the ozinator bubbles displace the water, lift to the surface and smell the ozone. I believe that is how it is tested right? For some reason I have yet to test mine.. it is brand new so it better be working. The guy who installed it had a nice kink in the tube that I had to chop off and reconnect.
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Greg, the tablets that you are using are trichlor, not lithium hypochlorite, right?
It seems like you were identifying them as lithium hypochlorite.
Trichlor contains a lot of cyanuric acid.
Primarily due to the high cyanuric acid level, I think that you should change out the water.
Yes, my mistake. I thought they were lithium but when you asked I got the bottle and read it. I don't use them much, actually at all. I just pulled them out this past week as we were not going to be using the tub and I get tired of lifting the lid to add bleach when I'm not going in. After having the water go bad I am more nervous now, and as such have been maintaining a higher level of residual CL.
Yup, a water change is scheduled for this weekend. It will be a very warm 10 deg. Celsius!
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Greg,
You are getting a lot of use out of your tub so have probably been adding a lot of bleach (about 9 fluid ounces) after each soak. I thought you had an ozonator so am surprised that you need to add as much chlorine as you have been doing -- a functioning ozonator would normally handle some of the bather load letting you use less chlorine when you are frequently using the tub (though it uses more chlorine when not using the tub).
Anyway, with such high bleach or lithium hypochlorite equivalent amounts, the salt and therefore TDS levels could be as high as they say, but the TDS will be mostly salt. Nevertheless, you do have a high bather load in your spa -- 1-2 people for an hour is considered high (unless your spa is unusually large). Good to hear that your water is lasting so well.
You should consider changing the water soon -- not a major rush, but as I noted the high TDS means higher conductivity so weaker metals exposed to that water could corrode faster.
Richard
Richard,
I do have a (functioning) ozinator. I've never tested it but believe it is working. There was a kink in the line at the start but I fixed that and can see the bubbles. I think a source of the salt is likely sweat. When I work out at the gym I am soaking wet as I perspire allot.. more then most people. Sweat is alkaine.. so perhaps this is playing a big part in my problem.
Out tub is a small one at 280 gallons (1050 litres).
I'm glad to have had four+ months on this fill and will change the water this weekend as the weather is warm. This time I'll be sure to stop the Dychlor when CYA is lower.
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How did your Cyanuric acid level get so high? The dichlor/bleach method stops adding cyanuric acid at 30 ppm.
What is your calcium level?
On my new water fill (October 31 last year) I accidentally got the CYA to 60 instead of the 30 I was aiming for. It was zero for the longest while then all of a sudden 60. I lost track of time. I guess Dychlor for two weeks instead of one. It went to 100 in January after the water going south and me shocking it back to life.
So, I started high (60) and went up to 100. Likely still around that mark.
CH was brought to 180 and never budged.
We did use our tub quite allot this past few months. I was usually adding about 250-300 ml bleach after each use (say for one hour (1-2 persons) 4-5 nights a week)
Greg
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UPDATE:
Thanks for all the replies. Here is a little history.
On a new fill (October 31, 2009) our water from the tap is;
pH: 7.5, TA: 80, CH: 30, and TDS: 200. Using the usual chemicals I balanced the water to CH: 180, pH: 7.6, and TA: 90.
I was using Dychlor for a few days and took various readings, they were all way too low, zero or just above (and not the 30 I was aiming for). Then, time passed quickly and all of a sudden CYA was 60. Oops.. so I switched to bleach and kept the tub running for a few months. Just bleach with the occasional MPS.
As Chem Geek noted, the water went south early Jan. from neglect. A family emergency had us out of town and the water was a light shade of brown on return. I have brought worse back from the grave so I shocked the *&!^*& out of it and it responded well. Recently we were not going to use the tub for a few days (or a week?) so I dug out the tabs [spaGuard Smart Tabs - Stabilized CH - Trichloro=S-Tetro] and threw them in on a very slow release. I used the tub here and there and topped up with bleach. I had a few itchy feelings so I thought I'd get it tested for TDS.
I was expecting it to be on the high side but not 3500! Her first two readings were 2000, 2500, then two more consecutive readings of 3500. I guess from the incidents I had, the shock treatments, and the tabs use I should expect this.
The thing is, the water is right back to it's usual balanced self and there is no foaming. I treat foaming as the number one sign if a high TDS. So if the water looks great, stays balanced, but has a very high TDS do I still need to dump the water? I gather CYA is likely around 100. I don't have much left in my drop test kit but could probably manage one more CYA test to verify this.
The weather all this week is unseasonably warm so I could easily do a refill on the weekend. I probably should... just looking for some opinions.
Greg
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All,
Well I am into month four of the Dychlor/Bleach method, although I've started to use some tabs (litho-hypo) lately. Anyhow, the water looks and feels great. pH, TA, are fine but I know my CYA is high.. likely around 100. I brought a sample in for testing and they said TDS was 3500. That's high all right, but I am not getting any foaming and the water is clear. They recommend dumping the water once you're over 2500, which is about 3 months in.
Should I change the water or keep it going? Any opinions?
Also, would an accurate CYA reading help in determining this?
thanks in advance,
Greg
That should read - "I am into month five (5) of Dychlor/Bleach method..."
Greg
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All,
Well I am into month four of the Dychlor/Bleach method, although I've started to use some tabs (litho-hypo) lately. Anyhow, the water looks and feels great. pH, TA, are fine but I know my CYA is high.. likely around 100. I brought a sample in for testing and they said TDS was 3500. That's high all right, but I am not getting any foaming and the water is clear. They recommend dumping the water once you're over 2500, which is about 3 months in.
Should I change the water or keep it going? Any opinions?
Also, would an accurate CYA reading help in determining this?
thanks in advance,
Greg
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Nature 2 wants a shock to 10ppm to "activate" it; is this really needed?
Personally I think Nature2 is a joke. A money grab. They make you pay $30-$40 for this wonder tool and it's requirement is to add all the chemicals you would need to add without using it to begin with.
I took mine out after 3 months and tossed it in the garbage after a little neglect let to bad water. Nature2 did nothing then what I was already doing with bleach, MPS etc. When I really needed it the thing let my water go to crap. The SPA sales folk just LOVE to sell these things...
Greg
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A friend of mine, who is a pool maintenance guy and very intelligent, believes CYA use in spas is not a good idea. He has read the 1974 report on CYA, but is so bored of arguing the CYA issue (apparently with other pool guys) that he doesn't want to get into it with me.
He thinks that chlorine is never a good idea for an above ground spa, with or without CYA, and that I should switch to bromine and leave out the CYA.
I'm wondering why he is convinced that CYA and chlorine for spas is unacceptable, when everything I've read here (mostly from chem geek) has indicated that CYA is great for hot tubs and helps to regulate the strength of chlorine and reduce damage to the tub cover, bathing suits, etc.
I can't figure out what the other side of the argument might be -- is it a concern for safety in terms of bacteria growth? Is it a blanket recommendation because most spa owners are irresponsible with testing/maintenance? Do most owners put too much CYA in the spa?
So going the bromine route for sanitizer does not require or add to CYA?
Greg
Bleach Alergy?
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
Hi All,
Just an update for those still interested in this topic. I have had a consultation with a dermatologist and he has stated my hot tub is not the cause of my skin condition, but it certainly doesn't help by heating then drying my sensitive skin. I am slated for a skin biopsy test in January which will be definitive to the cause, then I can get medication to remedy my problem. With that I should be able to get all cleared-up and back into the hot tub in X weeks or months. That news has made me happy.. but for now I will be closing the hot tub for the winter ;-(
Greg
BTW my best guess is Dermatitis Herpetiphormis., which is the skin reaction to having an intolerance to gluten (wheat, oats, barley, rye).