BMR
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Posts posted by BMR
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You can add me in to the mix on this problem. I have experienced everything that Nigel and the rest of you have detailed. My favourite is the constant discrepancy between my strips and when I take my water into the store and get it tested. I never seem to leave the store without at least 50 - 100 dollars worth of new chemicals, etc. I have had several visits from the tech repair guy and have had the electrodes replaced, etc, etc,
Take heart however, I have discovered a solution to the whole mess.
Empty and thoroughly clean your tub, get a new filter, set it up properly with one of the various versions of the "Cheat Sheets" that Arctic spa comes out with, get your levels proper and wait for several days until they are stable and the water is crystal clear.
From then forward, and this is the IMPORTANT:
1) Stay as clean as possible especially in regard to any soap that is on your body. Even a touch of soap from a shower you had that day is trouble.
2) If you or a female has even a hint of lipstick, body lotions, underarm, etc, unless you shower first thoroughly and get it all off STAY OUT OF THE TUB.
3) Try not to have more than one or two in the tub at once and not for long. If you have several in the tub for a while, your levels will be shot for DAYS.
4) Try not to wear bathing suits, but if you do, make sure they are the same ones over and over and that you never launder them.
5) Don't forget a sprinkle of Refresh after use and at least once a week.
*6) By far the most important of all rules, use the tub as little as possible ( once to twice a week ). This is the only way the ONZEN system can keep up.
I have found that by obeying these rules and especially RULE 6 that I now have a tub that is useable. The True Secret to ONZEN is use the tub very very sparingly. It is the only way for the tub to get back after you have been in it. The system just cant keep up. If you think I am wrong I challenge ANYONE in this forum, aside from an Arctic Spa employee, to use the tub 3 to 4 times a week with several bathers and without superhuman efforts to keep it clean.
By the way, when Onzen lets you down, and it will, a further method to help is to use Peak Boost. It will get the sanitizer up quickly although it will not last and you will have to wait for the Onzen to slowly get back in order. It will at least help when you have had several bathers in and your levels are totally Shot, as this always happens.
Sorry to be the bearer of this kind of news, however, this has been the only way that I have been able to consistently use this tub without the usual nightmares of Low sanitizer, cloudy water, etc, etc, etc, ..... You will be told by an Arctic Spa rep that I am wrong and that they use their tubs almost every day and with several bathers and that everything is great and the water is crystal clear, but I have to say that I have yet to see this. I am not against Arctic Spa, as I love the tub, and wish that I could use it a lot more, but I have to deal with reality. The tub works under limited use.
BMR
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My boys and I were swimming in our salt water pool and then jumped into the artic spa which has Onzen and uses Bromine salt to generate sanitizer. The water which was clear turned yellow or greenish in color fairly quickly. I tested with a strip at this point. Sanitizer level and alkalinity seemed right, Ph possibly high but hard to tell. The red portion of the strip which shows ph seems to have most of the redishness bleed away quickly so it is hard to tell.
Could anyone comment on this situation and whether I am dealing with a minor problem or not. Do I have to change the hot tub to a chlorine bassed salt instead ????
BMR
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I don't know if it is my imagination, but it seems to me that slowly over the last 4 months the jets seem to be getting slighly less powerful over time.
I also noticed that when you turn on or off the both air valves that they do not seem to have that great of an effect upon the water. The water does get more effervecent, but not dramatically.
I had the tech check the tub, and he seemed to think there was not a problem, however, in comparing to the same tub in the store, my power does seem less, and the store model ( same as mine ) seems to react a lot more to the on and off of the air valves.
any one else with similar concerns and resolutions ????
BMR
No Takers ??
BMR
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I don't know if it is my imagination, but it seems to me that slowly over the last 4 months the jets seem to be getting slighly less powerful over time.
I also noticed that when you turn on or off the both air valves that they do not seem to have that great of an effect upon the water. The water does get more effervecent, but not dramatically.
I had the tech check the tub, and he seemed to think there was not a problem, however, in comparing to the same tub in the store, my power does seem less, and the store model ( same as mine ) seems to react a lot more to the on and off of the air valves.
any one else with similar concerns and resolutions ????
BMR
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Just had my electrodes replaced, will report how the system is making out.
BMR
you know its interesting, but most of people who have had failure with their onzen were using bromine salt, not chlorine. The ones I've heard of with chlorine systems and issues had problems with the pumps or blowers with the onzen, not with the electrodes or actual generation.Might be nothing... I'm curious how accurate the observation is though.
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Hi BMR,
I have an Arctic tub and I am familiar with the filters you are talking about. Basically it comes down to how many square feet of material the filter is made up of. I believe a normal generic filter is around 50 square feet (sf), where the arctic filters are 900 sf.
In any case I find the best way to go is to run two generic filters (50 sf) and alternate them weekly. Cleaning one when the other is in use. The arctic does filter down to a finer particle level, however this is the problem it plugs up to quickly. The 50 sf does the same job it just takes longer. For example recently I had some minerals in the water after a fill, the Arctic dealer said the 900 sf filter would take out the extra minerals. However the 50 sf foot ones did as well and...it just took a little longer.
I have been running the same two filters for just over three years, no problems as long as you keep them clean, and you avoid chucking the $33.00 plus to get a new one every three months from the dealer.
The dealers like to push lots of stuff, but your really don't need most of it. I recently switched to the bleach method, and my water has never been better nor clearer. Check out Nitro's approach to water if your interested.
Hope that helps.
Cocoabailey
Thank you for your reply Cocobaily, could you also tell me more about the "bleach method" that you use in your tub. As well when you have the one filter out while the other is in, how do you clean it? Do you use the chemicals the Arctic people say you MUST use if you use the paper filter?
Thanks,
BMR
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I am getting conflicting information on which is the best option for filtering. On the one hand there are the super fine ones that Arctic recommends that are about $33. If you use them then you do not have to use extra chemicals and they are suppose to filter down to a very fine amount. However, some techs claim they get clogged up by the bromine salt, and dont do the job correctly. I have used two and noticed that they were in quite bad shape in far less than the recommended three months. On the other hand, I have also tried the paper ones that are about $50 each. I had to also buy some chemicals along with them, ie. ones that prevent build up of metals in the components and also another that clarified water. After a week, you have to take them out and clean them in some kind of solution. They seem ok, but I would not say that my water is crystal clear by any means.
Which is the right way to go, I am confused. I do not mind buying the $33 one and throwing it out at the end of three months if they work, but did not have good luck initially, although that could be due to many factors.
Opinions from Arctic Spa users that have used both would be much appreciated.
BMR
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My next question in my ongoing battle to get my tub to an acceptable equilibrium is:
If you have the tub at all readings within the defined parameters of acceptable, ie. hardness, bromine, ph, and alkalinity and you get some soap in the water, will this stop you from then forward getting the bromine level to be able to come back after the tub has been used and the bromine is depleted?
Now before people utter the gut reaction of yes that is possible, what i am asking is, can someone say definitively, that the presence of soap in the water, will inhibit bromine production.
BMR
No Takers on this one ??????
BMR
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My next question in my ongoing battle to get my tub to an acceptable equilibrium is:
If you have the tub at all readings within the defined parameters of acceptable, ie. hardness, bromine, ph, and alkalinity and you get some soap in the water, will this stop you from then forward getting the bromine level to be able to come back after the tub has been used and the bromine is depleted?
Now before people utter the gut reaction of yes that is possible, what i am asking is, can someone say definitively, that the presence of soap in the water, will inhibit bromine production.
BMR
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I'm no nudist or anything, but it seems that everytime I let someone get in my previous spa with a swimsuit, it ruined my water. I'd get foam or some other problem. So, the new rule is: no swimsuits. Anyone else have this rule?
You would not believe the problems that I am having with foam. I cannot decide whether it is the suits, which we do not wash, or even a mild bit of shampoo on my kids from a morning shower. As well, I now cannot get any bromine to now produce and I am not sure if it is because of this matter.
BMR
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Sent; but honestly, at this point I don't care where I purchase it from. I simply wanted to change out my water before it snowed (plan foiled!! It snowed last night).
I suppose I could change it anyway, and just manually add bromine until I get the salt...but that just seems stupid to me when I've been planning this for months; and the holdup is getting product.
Alternatively... anyone have 3.2kg sitting around? I'm probably violating some forum rule about asking; but contact me offline if you do, and I'll buy it off you.
I have extra, where are you ??
BMR
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I don't have a Onzen tub, but when I get foamy water, I use a plastic dust pan to scoop off the suds. It may take a half an hour of scooping suds, but that usually takes care of it, until the next time I get soap in the tub.
Dave
Thanks, Dave
I will try that to an extent and see where I get in regard to dissipating the suds. Does anyone else have a method as well?
BMR
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What do all of you do for an extended power outage? Do you drain your tub after a certain number of hours without power? I don't quite know how long it takes for things to freeze up in a hot tub, but I *do* know we get outages in my area, 2 years ago from an ice storm...FOUR days w/o power!!
Anyhow, just trying to be prepared...midwest winters can be brutal.
What brand of hot tub do you have, as, this will determine how long the tub will go before you have to worry about freeze ups. I have read that even in cold weather, the Arctic Spas will last for a long time without power due to the way it is insulated.
BMR
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Brad,
It's supposed to be easy, and for most users it is. Right now, I am standing on my head praying to the tub gods...
Please continue to work with the Onzen help center (p. 6 of your manual for the email address)) and your local dealer. I posted some low-level codes and their meaning in one of the Onzen threads. I'll continue to bug R&D for more info that may help, and I'll stay in touch until we have this fixed for you.
For today, all I have to offer is Chas' Law.
Wishing you a good weekend and a future solution
Tom:
Checked the water today, I have not used the tub for sometime because we are sick, however, water was clean, all levels good, ( hardness, bromine, ph, alkalinity ).
Turned on the jets and as usual the water turns milky white, still not sure of that one, it settles down after a while, but from my understanding it should not do that.
The secondary problem however, which is unrelated to the milky water, is that there is a ton of suds on the top, so obviously, one of the boys who went in must have had some soap or shampoo on them.
If that is the case, how do I now deal with this problem? If there is anyone else with an arctic spa onzen tub who has had a bather get in with soap or shampoo on them and then got sudsing, what did you do to get rid of it.
As always, your diligent help is much appreciated.
BMR
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Just checked the tub now, turned on the jets and a serious amount of white bubbles formed on the surface like soap bubbles??
What the heck is going on ??
Bromine is back up to almost proper. Water looks semi ok.
Can Refresh cause soap like bubbles if you use it ??
How do I get rid of them now that they are there, scoop with a net for the next 10 days ?
Always a crisis, Nigel, have you got your tub in order ??
BMR
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Here is my latest observation, and I welcome input in this regard.
After many problems that a lot of you have read about and commented on, I was able to get the tub to a reasonable level by doing the following.
1) Do a fresh fill, put in about 2 - 3 cups of bromine salt, set CP to 3 and FC to 1, leave the tub for a day and then most important ( SEAN L ) put in a cap of Refresh, run the tub in boost mode and leave the tub for a day. ( Sean L - my test strips in a white bottle that came with the tub don't work, as they show no bromine, had to get new ones from the store that did show Bromine ) I also had to add some PH down to get the ph into an acceptable range.
2) The tub then had some sanitizer finally show up and I started to use it. Therefore, I would soak for 30 min or so in clean water, however it would turn almost milky white when I used the jets and would take about 10 min to settle down again.
3) When I was done soaking, I would throw in a full cap of refresh, run the tub in boost mode with lid off for 20 min, then close it up and come back in a day. The tub would be clean and things seemed good. I have repeated step 2 and 3 a few times
PROBLEM:
- Checked the tub and had all levels within Range.
- Let three teenage boys soak for 1/2 hour
- put in full cap of Refresh when they were done, ran in boost mode, came back in a day.
- The water looked bad, with scummy bubbles on top, cloudy and not clean like i had it in step 2 and 3 above and low Bromine.
- put another full cap of Refresh in, ran in boost mode, will check it today.
WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON ???????
Now before you all start with the " turn up you onzen more " , " add more refresh ", "Stand on your head and pray to the tub gods begging forgiveness for doing something different " , etc , etc , etc , etc , etc , ............
There is no way in the world that running a hot tub can be this finicky, such that if i look at the tub in the wrong way there will be another crisis. The routine that I established should have easily taken care of the soak that the three boys did ( yes they were clean, soap free as best as I could tell, and did not leave any waste in the tub ).
Is this what my HOT TUB experience is going to be with an ARCTIC SPA ???? One Crisis after another ???????
I bought this tub, on the premise that it is the best tub there is and that it is easy to take care of and relatively maintenance free.
Is my tub still defective ???
I want to love this tub, since it has many great features and is clearly well built, but these ongoing problems are really bothering me.
Your insightful comments are most welcome. ( Nigel, Tom , others with similar problems )
BMR
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BMR, I've read some of your other posts and I sure hope you get this worked out. I know you spent a lot of money and it just seems like Arctic needs to take a serious look at their customer education program. When they are pushing this optional Onzen system there needs to be an in-store training session. I don't know how much they charge, but I'm sure it is a premium priced option and it just doesn't sound like you or the other guy who was having problems are getting premium service. I think the dealers don't really understand it and then they kind of run and hide after the sale and read instructions from the trouble shooting guide. I really liked what I read about the Arctic product, but they don't have a dealer in the Atlanta area (maybe a good thing). We'll be buying a second tub for our mountain house and I have to choose something that can be left alone for a couple of weeks.
The one thing I have to say in fairness to Arctic Spa, is that the spa clearly is heads and tails above others that I have seen and now that I am able to use it, sitting in it is fantastic and I can see myself using it everday. The tub itself feels quality and I hope for many years of use. I am just hoping to now get myself into a good routine of keeping the tub clean and clear with no difficulties.
BMR
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I watched your video. Great idea to show a problem.
Your tub looked about the same as mine, and I too have a fresh refill with very little use and application of chemicals. I would not worry about it, it certainly did not look like you have that much of a problem, especially since the bubble dissipated as soon as you turned off the tub.
BMR
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I have detailed several problems with my Arctic Spa tub that I have been having, but may be finally on the road to a solution. I am finally getting Bromine in the tub and have the water clear. I have delayed posting about this, because I am trying to get this thing down to a rythm that works. I think that the tech must have did something that caused the onzen to work, although he says it was fine.
The one odd thing about this time is that I did everything right, ie. fresh fill, put in the salt, set the cp and fc correctly and no bromine at all in two days. Adding some refresh is what then caused it to work. I am at a loss in this matter, as I understand what refresh does, but this should have not been necessary initially, as a fresh fill with clean untouched water, proper salt, and running for two days should have produced the bromine. Any thoughts in this regard ??? I have found too, that I have to add about a cap of refresh and start a boost cycle everytime that I use it, to get the water to register a fair amount of bromine the next day, although this could be related to too low a salt level, which I have now corrected. I also have some questions that I have detailed below. When I get this all sorted out, I am going to write a guide to this whole process for new users and ongoing users as well.
Questions:
1) I get tons of bubbles from the onzen when in a filter cycle, but if not in one, no one big bubble after 10 secs. Spa people say onzen is off if not filtering thus there should be no big bubble. Do you have an explanation on that one ? ( Nigel )
2) My water is very clear when I get in. If I turn on the jets, it goes extremely cloudy and you cannot see through it. When you turn off the jets, it stays cloudy for about 2 - 5 min and slowly settles down to clear again. Is this the same for other people? Is it the salt that is in the water being churned up ?
3) Exactly how much salt did you add ( cup fulls on a fresh fill ? ) I added two cups to my 7 ft tub, but have now added about 3/4 more a cup since dealer says using a test strip that my level is 1500 ppm.
4) When you first open the spa, is there a smell ( not bad, not chlorine, but still a bit of a chemical smell )?
Thank you,
BMR
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we used our spa yesterday and we noticed a big difference in the quality of water, it had a soft texture to it, left the skin feeling soft and it felt good and for the first time i actually relaxed in it.
I just hope the install error (valves) havn't put any long term damage to the Onzen system as a whole.
Early days though, but if the last 48 hrs are anything to go by, things are on the up.
My Problems are still present
Tech came and said thoroughly checked the system. Says everything works great and Onzen checks out. SO, I dumped the tub AGAIN as instructed, cleaned it thoroughly with bleach, cleaned that out, filled the tub, put in two full cups of bromine salt, one cap of ultra spa, set cp to 3, and fc to 1. I checked the ph and the alkalinity, both were in spec. The water looked great that night. It is now 24 hours later. Free bromine according to my strips is zero, water is starting to look cloudy again. No one has been in it or the tub touched in any way. I am getting so frustrated, I do not know what to do. I am bringing in the water for a test tomorow but am going to start proceedings toward getting the tub returned and then buying another tub.
Is it possible that the bromine salt in the bucket is actually not bromine Salt ?????? I am grasping at straws here.
BMR
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BMR & Everyone else.
My Spa is fixed!!!!
And yes it was in serious need of attention.
BMR, not sure where you are located but if you are in Ontario i hope you get the same guy we got, FANTASTIC!
Within seconds he found that the valves for the Onzen system were installed back to front, they were sucking rather than blowing.
He was suprised my tub wasn't green.
So, the people that assemble our tubs missed a major thing, he also mentioned they should of caught this during the testing, which they didn't.
Next, the Electrode was burnt out! that had to replaced.
Once all that was done he did a few other things to the spa that we hadn't noticed that should of been done at set up, but he did it and got us up and running.
We have never seen so many bubbles coming from the Onzen system.
He even mentioned that the install guys should of picked this up, the lack of bubbles.
So for the past 2 months we have been operating a poorly asembled Onzen system, wasted hours traveling to the store, lots of frustration and all it was, was poor Quality Service check at the factory.
Arctic Spa needs to get on top of this matter, this is clearly a factory problem.
It would be nice to recieve an appolgy from Arctic for sending me a faulty system and for my time and frustration.
These problems should of been picked up by the store themsleves after a dozen or so trips with water samples. Instead all they say is buy this and add more!.
The Technician spent some good time with us, explained a few things and gave us some good advise.
This technician was our saving grace, we were so close to losing it.
For two months we were made to think we were stupid and clueless when all along there was a major problem.
With that said, i still believe i bought a very good quality product but the back up service / customer service needs to be re looked at.
I will let you know how my tub is looking over the coming days.
He has me set at CP3, said i should not need to go higher for the two of us.
Nigel
Much Happier!
Note, future buyers, if you buy an Arctic Spa make sure they explain everything to you and at set up make sure everything is checked over.
The delivery guys were rush rush GONE!
WOW !!!
I sure hope that my case is a similar issue. I am near Wonderland and hope to get the same guy you got, do you know his name? I am very dissapointed so far, as I too think that the product looks like it is a very good one, but if I cannot use it, what good is it??
My guy will be here tomorrow, I will post after he leaves, unfortunately I will not be here to see what he has to say.
I may have to take the day off.
BMR
Hope your tub works out !!!!
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Good news!
Arctic called me, a service technician will be coming out on Wednesday.
So i hope from Wednesday onwards all my posts will be of the positive nature.
Once my onzen cell is replaced / fixed i hope i can enjoy the spa just as the sales pitch says.
"save you time, reduce the need for chemicals, and allow you to enjoy soft, sparkling water with a minimum of fuss."
I really do hope it works, i do believe i did by a very good quality spa, with that said, i wish i had done more research on Onzen first.
If all goes well, i expect to be using by the weekend.
Nigel, you and I must be tied together at the hip:
My service guy is comming on Thursday, I had to beg to get this person rather then wait till next week. I hope that they replace my onzen because i believe it does not work. I am not hopeful though, and think that instead I will get the try this and this, etc, or you are right you need a new onzen, we will order the parts - see you in several weeks.
It is going on three weeks now, that I have effectively had a $12000 expendure sitting in my yard that is using up electricity and that I cannot use because of problems. I am getting quite frustrated.
If this does not get resolved quickly, I am going to ask for a refund so that I can buy a tub that works.
BMR
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I have had onzen for over a year now, and my experience is this:
Our normal use, 1/2 hour 2-4 times a week me and my wife. Do nothing. Onzen set to 4 hours pr. day. I do not shock the water.
More heavy use - set the onzen to 8 or even 12 hours. I only shock the water when if the water start to look cloudy or ORP is very low.
Party - I prefer shocking with chlorine granulate, 1 tsp pr. person pr. hour, or just throw in a cup or two, after use and I try to remember to start the Onzen system before closing the spa.
After some weeks use you will notice more foam, start all pumps, shuffle foam out of the spa and the water gets great again. I do nothing to my PH, except when we have not used the spa for a long time when PH-down is needed.
When we go on vacation or leve the spa for a long time, I set the Onzen to only 2 hrs a day.
Onzen is by far the easiest way to keep the water safe and clean.
Boetta:
If you were filling your tub again from scratch and were using the Bromine salt, how much would you put in to get your tub to the state that you have mentioned in your post. I cannot seem to clear up my tub and am thinking of dumping it all and starting again. Also, what would you set the onzen setting to - CP2 ??? or the FC, to 1 ???
BMR
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Sadly it seems that I have the exact same problems that you have and cannot resolve them. I have been to the Arctic Sps dealer numerous times and they are trying to be helpful, but everything I try does not work. The water is cloudy and stays that way and yes I have tons of floating white pieces in my tub.
THEORY: Onzen works perfect if you set up the tub get it into equalibrium and then DON'T use the tub. Otherwise bather load is too much for the system and it cannot compensate. If there is someone out there who has a new tub ( 6 months or less ) with a working Onzen system that does not need Herculean efforts to get back to the good evertime that people use the tub, please comment.
BMR
Dust: I left you a message in your profile.
Artic Spa (now Im Really Confused)
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
James, no apologies necessary, it certainly is not your fault ...
I do not mind getting you the info that you have asked for and will send it to you. Unfortunately you will be about the 5th person with expertise in this area to assist me. I wholeheartedly believe that Arctic Spa has the best of intentions and is willing to help, but I cannot help but wonder about the equipment itself ( specifically the ONZEN system).
Once again though, I will ask the same question that I always ask of Actic Spa people and hope you can provide a convincing answer,
"Is it possible to have a tub, that once is set up will allow me to use it on a regular basis ( say 3-4 times a week with my two sons and wife ) and that will stay clean and above all have clear water, that is entirely reliant upon the Onzen System set at say CP3 or CP4, that does not require superhuman effort to keep in that state?"
I have owned my tub since Oct 2008 and have to this day never seen this happen. The moment I try to use it in that manner, my Bromine ( Sanitizer level ) will drop so low that the tub will be unuseable within two weeks.
BMR