Nitro
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Posts posted by Nitro
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I've heard that it's hard to tell if the ozonator is actually working, and that just becasue it's making bubbles doesn't mean it's producing ozone (or possibly enough ozone) to accomplish anything meaningful. Can the experts comment on this? Personally I don't feel that I can trust the thing since I can't test for it. I maintain my sanitizer at the same level with it ir without.
I have the same problem wih the mineral stick. Maybe the only benefit is to the guy that got the $23?? This is a great discussion - thanks guys.
Yes, that's the other problem I see with ozonators. It's hard to tell if they're working. Although, you should be able to smell it just after opening the tub.
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I just replaced the ozonator on my 4 year old Jacuzzi, and I use the dichlor/bleach sanitation method. I don't expect it to reduce my chemical usage, as I feel that the tub should always have 2-5ppm FC if it's being used. I think it is more of a safety in case the sanitizer level gets too low when it is not being used.
The problem is, Ozone is not a very good insurance policy, because it doesn't sanitize (i.e. kill pathogens). Nature 2 is a better insurance policy because it acts a sanitizer. However, a Salt Water Chlorine Generator (SWCG) is an even better insurance policy, because it will keep FC constant when the tub is not in use. That's where I'd spend my money.
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Thanks Dave and Richard. That's a relief.
The interesting thing is, I added 1/3 of 400ml, not 400 total, so the ppm should be much lower than 26 (according to Richard's calc). But after two days (with 1.5 hour of jet), I am still measuring 12+ ppm. ???
I am going to add peroxide to it today, so hopefully everything would be good. For argument's sake, it seems that I can actually reduce the corrosive/oxidizing effect of bleach by adding some dichlor. Theoretically speaking anyway?
Dichlor contains CYA which reduces the effect of Chlorine. The ideal amount of CYA to have in your tub is 20-30 ppm. So if you use Dichlor for a week or so, to raise CYA, you can safely switch to using bleach with no problems. However, if you just use Bleach with no CYA in the tub (on a continuous basis), it will be too strong.
Read my links below for more info.
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I am not suggesting that pools and spas are all unsafe but rather that the pool and spa industry as a whole has been operating under a misunderstanding of how bacteria behaves in a body of water. The industry has been ignoring the extensive research going on at Harvard, Stanford and lead by Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu) that conclusively show that 99% of the bacteria (including the patogenic bacteria) in a pool or spa are protected by the biofilm while the conventional treatment methods can only deal with the one percent of the "planktonic" bacteria in solution.
Once the biofilm problem becomes the focus of treatment which creates at least 80% of the water mangement issues, then over-dosing the pool or spa with ineffective chemicals that have unwanted side effects is greatly reduced. Getting rid of the biofilm is a positive first step, but traditional water treatment methods have been proven not to protect from bacteria reinfection.
My company has developed and patended a system that employes mother nature's solution to condition water to deal with biofilm (www.cwsnaturally.com). While this is not chemical free because this system still uses small amounts a traditional sanitizer to kill the residual planktonic bacteria, users report up to a 80% lowering of toxic chemical applications, a dramatic reduction in maintenance time and effort while improving water quality. It is pretty amazing how much simplier is to enjoy a spa or pool once the appropriate processes are implemented.
I should have known, you're trying to sell something, which makes me question what you say even more. You're going to have a tough sell on this board, because it's full of experts who have heard it all.
But feel free to state your pitch. I'm interested in hearing it.
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I have a Cal Spa...with an ozonator...three years old. It uses bromine pucks and I hate the smell it leaves on bathing suits and skin. Two questions, can I add the Cal-Clarity Bromine Generator to this model...will it affect the ozonator...and since it uses sodium bromide will it reduce the "spa smell"....second, does the ozonator require a filter to be changed every year...I don't know if this model has a filter...love the spa, hate the smell. I have a pool we treat with liquid chlorine...absolutely odor free all the time. My spa is still under warranty so I don't want to mess that up. Thanks
What makes you think a Bromine Generator (which creates Bromine) will have a different smell than Bromine Pucks (which release Bromine)?
Second, if you're worried that the manufacture will void your warranty if you use Liquid Chlorine, don't be. Using Dichlor (i.e. granulated chlorine with stablizer (CYA)) in your spa will not void the warranty. Therefore if you add 20-30 ppm CYA to the tub before using Liquid Chlorine (i.e. bleach) it's perfectly safe for your tub, and nobody would know you weren't using Dichlor.
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I'm with Vermonter. Why the concern about MPS levels? If it's high just stop adding it. It will just stay in the tub until it's used up.
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The only time you would need to measure MPS is if you're using the Nature 2 system without Chlorine. In that case you need MPS in the tub at all times. If you're using Chlorine, as long as Chlorine is above zero you're ok. Then you can use MPS to help out with oxidation during/after high bather loads, and/or to lower CD and CC. As Vermonter said, a (bi)weekly dose can't hurt.
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Back to pH: what's going on with Taylor Acid Demand test?
Thanks for the very useful information, this is helpful to me in my struggle to settle on a balanced tub. I made a couple more dry acid additions and managed to get pH down to 7.5. It is still tending to creep up, but now between 7.5 and 7.7 which makes me a little more comfortable.
Now I am curious why the Acid Demand test does not give me a useful suggestion for lowering pH. It repeatedly suggested 0.7 oz of dry acid would get the pH down to 7.5 in my tub, and I never found that to work. In the end it took 8 to 9 times that amount to get pH to 7.5. BTW, after the last 3 additions of dry acid I measure no change in TA (to the resolution of the Taylor kit), it remains at 50, but pH is now responding.
Forget trying to set pH directly. Instead you need to adjust TA to the level at which pH stays stable. Read my links below for more info. If your pH is stable in range, your TA should be good for now. Just keep an eye on pH and adjust TA as needed.
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I kind of figured that my TA was slipping a bit, I added TA up to take it to about 60ppm, and my ph stabilized at 7.5.....so that was easy.
Wh said it was difficult?
Just keep on eye on pH. -
The better question is, which is better a 110 Volt (15 amp plug in) or a 220 Volt (50 amp) spa. A 110 Volt spa won't be able to heat the water with the jets running. A 110 Volt spa won't have as much air/water movement. Also, a 110 Volt is less efficient than a 220 Volt. However, a 220 volt spa needs to be specially wired with a deticated breaker.
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Thanks!
This is when you fine tune TA to keep pH stable. Try not to over swing too much. The least amount of acid/base you add to the tub, the longer the water will last.
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well...my ph is actually having a tendency to drift down, even with aeration it still hovers low until I add PH up, but then the next day or two it falls back down. So I was thinking that maybe it's just a tad low?
Don't add ph Up, add Baking Soda to raise TA slightly. Add 2 tsp BK, which will raise TA ~5 ppm in 350 Gal tub. Then areate for 30 mins and check pH.
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So to lower the FC by 5 ppm in 390 gallons, you would use 4 fluid ounces (1/2 cup) of 3% hydrogen peroxide or 1.8 teaspoons of 35% hydrogen peroxide.
Wow, that's a lot less HP than I thought. Thanks for the info.
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You know, I do that most evenings by just using the tub. Say 1 hour each night with the air full and jets on high and it's never (noticeably) raised the pH. I keep a spa log of readings and it's always the same thing, pH is too low and TA is too high. I can fix either one but the other then goes out of wack.
pH-Up or ALC-up will raise both (pH & TA)
Lo-N-Slo will lower both (pH & TA)
I am starting to think pH is MORE important then TA as when my pH is in range the water behaves better, less odor and less foam.
What about baking soda? is it any different?
thanks for your suggestions, btw I have read (and re-read) your link and refer to it often.
Greg
There is no particular correct range for TA, so don't bother trying to get it there. Your TA should be at WHATEVER level it needs to be to keep pH in range (7.6-7.8). That means if you pH is low, you need to raise TA (with baking soda) to keep pH higher. If pH is too high (the norm), you need to lower TA (with acid) to keep pH lower. And if pH is stable, don't touch TA.
Bottom line, adjust TA (with baking soda and/or acid) so that pH is stable between 7.6-7.8.
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Thanks for the idea of the hydrogen peroxide. Do you have any idea of how much to lower by each number? Our tub is 390 gallons. I would love to soak in the tub, but I read that I should not if the chlorine level is above 5, is that accurate?
I'm not sure on the amount. You can try a pint first, let run for 15 mins and check FC. Keep adding pints until FC is 8ppm, then go ahead and soak.
5 ppm FC is a little low for the Max FC to soak with. I've soaked with much higher levels with no il effects, at least not yet. LOL I'd say 10 ppm FC is a more realistic max to soak.
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You can use Hydrogen Peroxide to lower Chlorine. However, I find the best way to lower Chlorine is to just soak in the tub.
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Did you start of using Dichlor for around a week or so to build up the Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level to around 30 ppm or so? If not, then the active chlorine level is too strong and will also dissipate (outgas) faster.
Oh I knew I forgot to put one thing in there...yes my CYA is about 25ppm...maybe I should bring it up??
It's fine anywhere bettween 20-30 ppm. It doesn't have to be exact
Also, do you think I could bring up my TA a bit??? maybe closer to 80?No! If you raise your TA to 80 ppm, your pH will shoot up (>8.0) If your pH is stable now, leave TA alone.
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Are you suggesting that pools and spas are no longer safe to use
Guess I'll be selling my spa. LOL
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To raise pH without raising TA, you can turn on all the jets/air and let run for 30 mins. Read my link below about Lowering TA.
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SimonC,
Read and re-read this. I am a newbie here and was having some of the same problems.
I was concerned about how much bleach I was using at one time and it was gone in 24 hrs. I was using 16-24 ounces a day. Finally re read Nitros info and used the MPS and bleach. The chlorine levels stayed high for 2 days but FC and TC levels are good now. Soaked last night with wife and added 8 ounces and its still reading high this AM. Hopefully by late tonight when we can soak again it will be back down to 3-5 range and I will adjust my bleach adding as needed.
I too was getting frustrated. Dont be afraid of putting "too much" bleach.
Finally seeing some light at the end of the newbie learning water chemistry tunnel!!!
Just FYI, you could have done the same thing with just bleach (no MPS). You just would have had to add more bleach (3-4 cups, a super shock). I suggest MPS in addition bleach, because it really helps out the oxidation process. I still want to make the point, don't be afraid to use too much Chlorine.
Check out my link below about Chlorine Demand (CD). You should never let your Idle CD get too much above 50%. If you keep CD low, you'll have a lot less problems.
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After doing the shock, I plan on doing a partial drain/refill of my tub to try to bring the CYA level down to about 40-50ppm. Getting to 30ppm with my Taylor K-2006 test kit seems to me to be difficult since the minimum test result is 30. Maybe I'll get lucky and get near that???
It's not difficult at all. Just raise CYA until you can't see the black dot at 30 ppm. Simple!
I wouldn't bother doing a refill unless you do a full one. I'd just wait a month, and do a full refill before the winter. Just my opinion, but it's up to you.
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Thank you, while waiting for a response I found your post and will print out the info. I will purchase the drop test kit and try to make sure we have the water maintenance under control.
Great! Sounds like you're off to a good start. Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress.
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Not sure what your problem is. Sounds like you tub is acting normal i.e. Using Chlorine. You need to add Chlorine after every use. Otherwise it will drop to zero, which would be bad.
My advice is for you to read my links below.
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If you think going in the tub naked with a beautiful woman is too much time/trouble, then I'm available to provide some psychological help (LOL).
Depends on how long you been married. LOL
Getting your guests to take showers and go in naked is though.
Is An Ozonator Really Worth The Money?
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
Here are a couple different ones. Spa Pilot discussed here and Nexa Spa. IMHO, I'd choose the Nexa Spa, because it has a higher output. The higher output the better, because you don't need to keep as high salt levels. I think additions of Chlorine and/or MPS are still needed during/after use, but the Generator will keep the FC constant when not in use.
It's debatable whether the higher salt levels cause corrosion in hot tubs. I don't believe they do. The salt levels are only 1500-3500 ppm which is much lower than sea water etc. I read where if your tub isn't grounded properly the metal will get corroded. However, if your tub isn't grounded properly, corroded metal parts are the least of your worries.