Nitro
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Posts posted by Nitro
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BTW, I did go to the "pool store" and get my water tested the other day and had a chat with the "pro" about using bleach. He didn't say not a good idea at first but then warned me that I could potentially void the warranty on my spa. He mentioned that there are other things in bleach (not specified) that can harm or "pit" the jets and damage the chrome. That bleach is highly corrosive and could damage the metals in the pump etc. He also said there are things added to the chlorine products that help to protect the hot tub parts.
hmmm....
When I look at the bottle of bleach it has the same warning symbols as my chlorine. Don't drink it basically and careful not to splash it in your eyes or on your skin.
I am using the standard 6% bleach. All is says is sodium hypochlorite.
Greg
Sounds like a typical response from a "pro" at a "pool store". You could print THIS out and give it to him. Maybe he'll have an open mind and learn something. But even if he does he'll probably ignore it, because it's not good for business.
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Chlorine and Bromine are two different animals. Bromine needs to be shocked for a different reason then Chlorine. i.e. to convert spent Bromine back to usable Bromine.
I add ("Shock" whatever you want to call it) enough Chlorine (after soaks and/or 2-3 times per week) to ALWAYS maintain some Free Chlorine in the tub, and to keep my Chlorine Demand low. Do that and you will never have sanitation problems.
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I am not sure how to get the "cyanuric acid level" measured. This is not given by the spa testing place here. They did give me my Total Dissolved Solids and it was 1700. I just use simple strips and will invest in a proper kit one day soon. I guess the Taylor (??) kit would be sufficient.
TDS means nothing. Salt reads as TDS and is ok to have at much higher levels. CYA is what you need to worry about. I'd get your CYA level checked (better yet, buy a kit and test yourself). My guess is it's high.
I'm trying to stretch the drain and refill into November as it get's quite cold here and we have long winters. So my hope is to do it in November and last until March when there is a chance of a warmer day for the next change. I'd be nervous trying to drain it and have something freeze in Jan. or Feb. In Ottawa Canada it get's down to -20 -30 Celsius in those months.Using the Dichlor/Bleach method, you can safely go six months between water changes.
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Nitro, let me say, i wish i could just hire you to get me thorugh this. You are the genius.
Thanks, but Chem Geek is the genuis. I'm just the messenger.
But I am not, so I get confused. Which products are uneeded? Also, the reasons your method seems more involved is the daily testing. I'm not sure I'd be able to test everyday.There is a learning curve to EVERY method. Don't think you'll make it any easier by buying a bunch a chemicals. Checking water everyday is only necessary in the beginning, until you learn the method. After you get the hang of it, you can back off to 2-3 times per week.
FYI, I wrote that article a year ago, when I was learning the method myself. The forum went down shortly before that, and we lost a lot of posts. I wanted to document everything we knew at the time, and save it. That's why it's long and detailed. The method itself is very simple.
Also, what about things like metal/scale defense/oil etc. How does your system account for those products, or why do you think they are not needed? Seems to me metal is a must?Rule of thumb: don't put (buy) anything in your tub until (unless) you need it. The less you put into the tub the longer the water will last, and the less problems you'll have.
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IMHO, any method that uses all that stuff is more involved than the Dichlor/Bleach method. Half that stuff you don't need, and is a waste of money. If you use the Dichlor/Bleach method you'll spend less than $100/yr and it will be much less involved, because your water will have no problems.
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I have been using Clorox 6% bleach now for a few days and find it hard to keep a free chlorine reading. I either go to zero or close to it. I am adding 4 oz or about 120 ml of bleach before or after using the tub and the next day it's close to zero. With a 280 gallon tub on a daily use with two bathers what amount of bleach is normal?
The pH is 7.3 and TA about 140.
I was expecting to be adding around 2 oz of bleach a day but maybe that was unrealistic. Now it looks like 4 tbsp is barely enough. Maybe 6-8 is what I need. Am way off base here or is that the norm?
BTW the water is better now with bleach, that is a given. Feels and smells better and looks great. Less foam and feels right. pH is not bouncing around although TA is high.
thanks,
Greg
Forget the "Normal" amount of Bleach. There is no such thing. The "Normal" amount of bleach is whatever it takes to oxidize all bather waste, and kill off all the pathogens. If you find FC is dropping to zero (or close), use more. It's as simple as that. Read my link below about Chlorine Demand (CD) for more info.
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Nitro thanks for the links, saved to my favorites. I have a question, the Hotsprings Jetsetter has the 24-7 ozonztor and silver ion stick, how does this come into play with testing water? Do these two items change how I test and what I add to the spa? I am total new to this other than having a fish tank for 30 years, testing its water. So looks like you recommend the k-2006 kit over the TF 100. I just want to get the best kit the first time, that will deliver my needs for the long haul.
The ozonator and silver stick doesn't really change the testing and water maintenance. They may save you some on sanitation additions, but you should still test the water as if they weren't there. If it were me, I'd ignore them all together.
As far as test kits, either the TF 100 or Taylor K-2006 will work for you.
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Check out my link(s) below. The first one tells you everything you need to know (and use) to maintain your water using Chlorine. Yes, get the Taylor K-2006 kit now, and test your tap water. That will help you determine what chemicals you'll need after filling the tub. Any specific questions, ask away.
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I have treated it numerous times with a cholreine free oxidizer but it doesnt seem to be helping.
Chlorine-free oxidizer is usually permonosulfate (PMS) and will register as CC on your test. If you use only chlorine then you should get to where FC registers.
--paulr
I thought "PMS" is something that comes around once a month. j/k
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There has been so many companies selling "snake oil' in this industry that I do not blame anyone for being skeptical so I going to ask you to do a little research on your own. Understanding bacterial biofilms and how they are formed and behave is the first step. The July 2009 issue of Discover Magazine has a great article in it (http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/17-slime-city-germs-talk-each-other-plan-attacks/?searchterm=Slime). They refer to the research about biofilm going on for over fifteen years at Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu/) which is a National Science Foundation Research Center.
Learning about biofilm uncovers the major misunderstand that the pool and spa industry has been operating under when it comes to treating water. Less than one percent of the bacterial contaminates remain in solution or "Plankton" as the scientist point out. Most if not all of today's sanitizers kill planktonic bacteria. Unfortunately, 99% of the bacteria attaches itself at the water surface interface and immediately begins to create a protective shield over itself called biofilm. All presently employed methods of pool and spa water sanitization do not penetrate biofilm and kill the bacteria living, multiplying, and contaminating the water from there. The EPA, FDA, and CDC are all very aware of this fact because they regularly attend seminars at these universities including Montana State Unversity.
The story about my company and our discovery of nature's solution for treating the water using sphagnum moss then naturally follows once one in aware of the biofilm issue. You can check us out at www.cwsnatually.com and see two videos on our FaceBook page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Creative-Wat...&ref=search. I can be reached at aschwartz@cwsnaturally.com as well.
The consensus here is that biofilm will not form if sanitizer levels are maintained at all times. Are you saying this is not true, and the only way to keep a biofilm free tub is to use your product?
I'd like to know the answer to my question Aschwartz.
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Why don't you just come out and say that you are pushing this sphagnum moss product? Do you work for Creative Water Solutions? Do you sell their product?
BINGO!
It's nothing but another attempt to sway us from the tried and true method of good ol' Chlorine. Even if this "Moss" did what they claim, Chlorine does it at a tenth of the cost.
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I have a chlorine generator in my tub, Onzen. I think the Dichlor/bleach method is really cool, but I can't do this with the generator, right?
Even if you have a Chlorine Generator, you should still add 20-30 ppm CYA. As a matter of fact, some portable SWCG's use a starter pack conyaining CYA and Borates.
Also, you may need to supplement Chlorine (i.e. Bleach) during high bather loads even though you have the Generator.
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This is well written and informative except I have to disagree specifically the word typical. IMO it is not typical to add dichlor every day; most people only add 1 or 2 (sometimes 3x per week, per use method), drain every 3 or 4 months and have great success with diclhor because they specifically are not adding it daily.
I won't get into a debate about what "Typical" is, but 4 ppm FC per day is not that much. Picture 2 people using the tub for 60 mins, 2 times a week, which is much less than I use mine. Given the rule of thumb, ~7ppm FC per person per hour, that's 28 ppm FC per week (i.e. ~4 ppm FC per day).
However, if someone doesn't use the tub very often, uses MPS to help out and/or changes water often they may not have any problems. I'm just pointing out a better, (i.e. safer) method.
Now if you are the everyday type user then I can certainly see the increasing CYA coming into play as you explain and in fact I see a lot of people going to Lithium Hypochlorite which is similar to bleach relative to what this discussion is about and sold in a lot of spa stores for the reasons above. I know a few people who use it and swear by it for the reasons you've given and I'm going to have to try it out as well.The problem with Lithium is the cost, which is much higher than Bleach. Otherwise Lithium is a better alternative than using only Dichlor.
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The other thing with the Dichlor/Bleach method is I use a floater with tabs, does that go away and I need to do daily (or more regular) doses of Bleach? When I leave for a long weekend I just top up the tabs and go, what do I do then with Bleach?
Greg, what floater with tabs are you using??? Dichlor doesn't come in Tabs. Are you sure you're not using Trichlor??? If so, that would explain why your pH is consistantly low. It's very acidic.
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If you are using Granulated Chlorine (aka Dichlor) to sanitize your hot tub, this is a must read!
Dichlor essentially has two ingredients, Chlorine and Cyanuric Acid (CYA). Almost everyone knows about Chlorine, but few people know about CYA. CYA is used in outdoor swimming pools to limit the breakdown of Chlorine from UV rays. However, it also acts as a Chlorine stabilizer. Basically, it limits the effectiveness of Chlorine, while allowing it to last longer. Think of Chlorine as being a wildfire, and CYA being a water hose. CYA in a sense controls the Chlorine from burning everything up (i.e. you and your tub). Therefore, CYA is a GOOD thing to have in every hot tub and pool (including indoor). The problem comes when there is too much. If there is too much CYA in your tub it will limit the Sanitation (burn) rate too much, allowing certain types of bacteria to grow and form biofilms, namely Pseudomonas Aeruginosa (Hot Tub Itch).
Here are some details:
For every 10 ppm FC you add to your tub using Dichlor, you add 9 ppm CYA. Active Chlorine is a measure of how effective the Chlorine in your tub can kill bugs, and oxidize waste. Active Chlorine is estimated by the ratio FC/CYA. As CYA increases, Active Chlorine decreases (assuming FC remains at normal levels between 1-10). This means every time you add ~11 ppm FC (10 ppm CYA), you drop the Active Chlorine by 1/10th. Let's look at some real numbers. Assume a 350 gal tub with an average of 4 ppm FC added everyday using Dichlor, which is typical. After the first week you will have 25 ppm CYA. After the first month you will have ~100 ppm CYA. That means your Active Chlorine is FOUR times less after a month than it was the first week. So after a month when you soak in your tub with 4 ppm FC, that's equivalent to 1 ppm the end of the first week. After the second month (CYA = 200 ppm), 4 ppm FC is equivalent to 0.5 ppm. Get the picture?
You might be asking why is the industry recommending we use Dichlor which contains CYA. The main reason is that you do need some CYA in your tub. If you have no CYA in your tub the chlorine would be way too strong causing damage to you and the tub. If you had 4 ppm FC in the tub with no CYA, that would be equivalent to ~120 ppm FC with CYA at 30 ppm. That would be a level used in a Decontamination procedure. Not safe for you, or the tub. Some manufactures will even void the warrantee if they find out you were using Chlorine with no CYA. So to try to keep consumers from destroying their tubs and themselves, the industry created a product (Dichlor) with Chlorine and a stabilizer (CYA). However, as we have seen from the facts above, this is not the best solution. As CYA increases in your hot tub, the risk of getting ill (i.e. Hot Tub Itch), and/or having water problems (cloudy water etc.) is much greater.
Some may say they have been using Dichlor for years, and never had a problem. Or, if you change the water evey 2-3 months, you won't have a problem. I say, why risk it, if there's a better solution? If you are using Dichlor in your tub now, a better solution is the Dichlor/Bleach method, pioneered by Chem Geek. All you do is use Dichlor for the first week to build up CYA to 20-30 ppm, then switch to Regular Clorox Unscented Bleach. Bleach has no CYA, so your Active Chlorine will remain the same up until you drain the tub. Other advantages of using Bleach are it's cheap and easy to get. The water will last about twice as long. The only other difference is you need to keep your TA lower (50-60 ppm), and are recommended to add Borates (which actually make the water feel and smell better). If you would like to learn more about this method, check it out HERE.
Lastly, there is no guarantee with this, or any method. All we can do is lower the risk.
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I have been using a twin neck bottle to dispense my bleach. It works very well. It has ml and oz. measurements marked on the dispensing side. If any bleach happens to drip onto the outside of the container I just tighten the caps and rinse it off in the tub. This is the one I use here. Be sure to order the correct caps. Nitro has a good idea as well. Either way sure beats the measure and pour method.
That's a good idea.
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I'm usually naked when I add the bleach. It's hard to ruin clothes you're not wearing!
Dave
Too much information. LOL
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Before you give up on liquid, consider using a large (24, 32 oz) plastic water bottle with pull spout. Mark 2 oz lines on it with Sharpie, and fill with Bleach ahead of time over sink with funnel, old clothes etc. You can even make 2 or 4 bottles if you wish. Then when you want to add bleach to tub, just pull spout and squirt it in. Afterward just close spout and rinse bottle in tub. No splash, no mess, easy as can be. I keep a bottle by the tub, when I do long soaks, or when I have guests. Works like a charm.
If you do decide to use Lithium, you'll still need to raise your CYA to 20-30 ppm, because it's unstabilized as well.
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There has been so many companies selling "snake oil' in this industry that I do not blame anyone for being skeptical so I going to ask you to do a little research on your own. Understanding bacterial biofilms and how they are formed and behave is the first step. The July 2009 issue of Discover Magazine has a great article in it (http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/17-slime-city-germs-talk-each-other-plan-attacks/?searchterm=Slime). They refer to the research about biofilm going on for over fifteen years at Montana State University's Center for Biofilm Engineering (http://www.erc.montana.edu/) which is a National Science Foundation Research Center.
Learning about biofilm uncovers the major misunderstand that the pool and spa industry has been operating under when it comes to treating water. Less than one percent of the bacterial contaminates remain in solution or "Plankton" as the scientist point out. Most if not all of today's sanitizers kill planktonic bacteria. Unfortunately, 99% of the bacteria attaches itself at the water surface interface and immediately begins to create a protective shield over itself called biofilm. All presently employed methods of pool and spa water sanitization do not penetrate biofilm and kill the bacteria living, multiplying, and contaminating the water from there. The EPA, FDA, and CDC are all very aware of this fact because they regularly attend seminars at these universities including Montana State Unversity.
The story about my company and our discovery of nature's solution for treating the water using sphagnum moss then naturally follows once one in aware of the biofilm issue. You can check us out at www.cwsnatually.com and see two videos on our FaceBook page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Creative-Wat...&ref=search. I can be reached at aschwartz@cwsnaturally.com as well.
The consensus here is that biofilm will not form if sanitzer levels are maintained at all times. Are you saying this is not true, and the only way to keep a biofilm free tub is to use your product?
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I am not the one saying that biofilm is the problem, the scientific research community is saying that biofilm is the problem that is why I encourage everyone to go to the website (http://www.erc.montana.edu) where the research is published. We have no influence over the unversities.
It is amazing though once people understand what is causing the problems (ie.biofilm) and take steps to address these issues, how simple it becomes to manage their pool and spa water. We hear all the time from end users that finally are getting the experience they thought they were getting when they purchased their spa. Throwing more and more chemicals at a problem with all the side effects is not the answer. This is especially true when you discover like we did that nature has been way ahead of us all the time.
It costs ~$20 per month to use your product(s). I spend only a few dollars a month to maintain my water now. My Chlorine Demand (CD) is the same (~25%) as the day I refilled my tub almost 6 months ago. I don't know if your product will reduce biofilm. That needs to be proved by you. However, I do know it cannot reduce my CD any lower then it is now. Even if it could lower my CD to zero (impossible), it wouldn't be cost effective. My question for you is, why should I spend an extra $20/mo for a product that won't lower my CD and/or my cost?
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I have a spa that is about 1300 gallons. The toal chlorine is between 5 and 10 and the rest of the stats are within range. It get a lot of use. The free chlorine is very low .3 to not there . I have treated it numerous times with a cholreine free oxidizer but it doesnt seem to be helping. I was using 3in chlorien tablets but switched to teh dissolvable chlorine. It raise the total chlorine but not the free. When I do add the chlorine the spa becomes cloudy and then a white filmy stuff appears on top of the most of teh water and then taken away by the filter.
Any ideas and help would be apprecitated. Thanks
Read my links below, specifically Chlorine Demand.
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The problem is, Ozone is not a very good insurance policy, because it doesn't sanitize (i.e. kill pathogens).
OK, but if it is supposed to reduce your santizer demand, then won't it make the sanitizer last longer?
Ozone does help oxidize bather waste, which means the Chlorine will last longer during use. However, Ozone will also destroy Chlorine, so the Chlorine won't last as long when not in use. Ozone will oxidize waste, but won't kill pathogens. Therefore, Ozone by itself is not good enough. You need a sanitizer also (i.e. Chlorine).
Help, Help, Please Help
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
Did you Decontaminate your tub? See my link below. If you didn't bring the Free Chlorine to a high enough level (50-100ppm), you could still have something in your tub causing problems.
If you are truly sensitive to Chlorine (rare), you'll probably have a problem with Bromine also. You could then try Nature 2 (Silver Ion and MPS), which is a no to low chlorine method.