Nitro
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Posts posted by Nitro
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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him maintain it.
Cramp just keep us posted. Good luck.
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You need to lower TA (Total Alk) under 100 ppm (more like 60ppm) for your pH to become in range. See my links below for more info. (Specifically Lowering TA, and Maintenance)
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Keep in mind the only way to know for sure is to see doctor (dermatologist).
When you do the decon, make sure you wipe all areas of the spa with the superchlorinated water, cover, pillows etc. It can easily get re-introduced if you're not thorough.
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I have some calcium booster which I now understand may help me in balancing TA/pH
I haven't had time to read and evaluate your whole plan. However, I wanted to note that you should not plan to add any calcium booster until all scale is gone, and then only if it is needed, which it probably won't be.
Calcium booster will not help in balancing TA or pH.
Yeah, I missed that. No need to add Calcium, even after the scale is gone. The fill water is 100 ppm CH.
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No plans for a hot tub; not sure where we'd put it. We have gone into other people's tubs -- just a few weeks ago we were in a friend's tub in Ashland, Oregon whom we were visiting. Our pool is used as a therapy pool for my wife (she exercises and swims almost every day) so is usually at 88F so is quite warm, though obviously not the same as a hot tub.
What method of sanitation were they using, Dichlor/Bleach?
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Greg, don't think that matters. Richard knows more about Hot Tub water chemistry (chemistry in general) than most people with hot tubs (and/or without).
Richard, just curious, any plans to get a hot tub?
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The reason I recommend using a softener is not just to have low calcium, but it also removes metals and other sediment.
Regarding the decon. I would just say put the decontaminated filter in the tub while you supershock with bleach. Better yet just buy a new filter. Soaking in acid is not a good idea if there are oils in it.
Regarding the Dichlor/Bleach method. To be honest with you it's not any more difficult than using only Dichlor. The CYA doesn't have to be exact (20-50 is fine). Just use Dichlor for a week, and switch to Bleach. HOWEVER, it is MUCH safer, and your water will last TWICE as long. Using Dichlor alone is not recommend. Here is a link explaining in more detail.
Bottom line is: if you're not willing to use the Dichlor/Bleach method, I recommend you forget about Chlorine, and go with Bromine (3 step method). There is a learning curve with it also, but it's a little more forgiving if you neglect it. However, if you go back to what you were doing, you will problaby wind up with issues again. Just my humble opinion. Good luck!
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Tim, did your rash come right after/during soaking, or did it come later? That may give you a clue as to whether it's Bacteria. Bacteria infections usually appears after a couple days. Sensitivity (alergies) comes sooner. Check here for more info.
I recommend doing a Decontamination (see link below). Then using the Dichlor/Bleach method. See below for full instructions. If you still have sensitivity, you can try Nature 2 low (no) Chlorine method.
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Thanks again for the detailed reply. So for descaling you suggest the muriatic acid. When you say to let the tub circulate continuously for 6-12 hours, do you just mean via the normal 24/7 circ pump, or are you suggesting I keep turning on the jet pumps (the electronic controller on my D-1 limits duty cycle of the big jet pumps)?
But then it appears you go on to recommend that I NOT do the muriatic acid descale (even though 4 ozs. in 370 gal. of water does not seem too risky). Is that correct? Should I just skip that and move on to the decontamination?
The bigger question I have concerns your recommendation to fill the tub with "softened" water. How? I get what I get from my well water, and I do not have a water softener machine at my house. So whatever I do, I have to do to fresh water that I put in the tub. I am familiar with chems for raising or lowering pH, and for raising CH, but what does one put in to lower CH (e.g. "soften"), or is that just the same thing as lowering pH? Please forgive my ignorance.
Also I still would like to know if there is a pH lowering product out there which is easier to use than the granular stuff I have and which is difficult to get to dissolve. Any liquid types? (Some generics that I could buy a gallon of since I know that getting my pH to stay low is a regular task for the long term?)
I am anxious to go buy or order some chems online today so I can get cracking on this (want the spa to be back up before family arrives for Thanksgiving). THANKS AGAIN!
I agree with Quant about letting the Calcium desolve slowly over time, by keeping pH low 7.2-7.4 and TA low around 30-40ppm. But opinions may vary on this.
The only way you're going to get soft water (Calcium removed) is to get a water sofener. Something you may consider anyway if you have really bad water. The other option is to truck it in.
However, I would not do anything until you get a Drop Test kit (Taylor K-2006). If you cannot measure your water properly, you may end up adding more scale to the tub. You need to Balance the water immediately after filling. You can use either Dry Acid (granular) or Muratic (liquid) to lower TA/pH. Read me "Lowering TA" link below.
Do a decontamination after balancing your water. See below. Drain and refill (perferably with softened water). Follow the Dichor/Bleach method. See link below. However, keep your TA around 30-40 ppm, and pH 7.2-7.4. The Calcium should desolve over time. I would suggest leaving some of the scale on the tub surface you can check to see if/when it works.
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Where to start. That almost sounds like scale from Calcium. Was your water balanced properly? If pH/TA is too high, scale can build up in the tub.
Regardless if it scale or not, your tub is NOT safe. You should never let your Free Chrloine drop to zero. Two weeks with no sanitzer is a no no. You probably have all kinds of nasty stuff growing in there now.
My advice is to Decontaminate and start over using the Dichlor/Bleach method. See my links below for more info.
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Switch to using only bleach now. You want to shock to 10-20 ppm FC depending on your CYA level. i.e. w/ CYA=20 raise FC to 10. /w CYA=40, raise FC to 20. Your water is only 2 weeks old so, your CYA shouldn't be that high (~50 or less). Though without measuring it's hard to tell for sure. I suggest getting a drop test kit anyway, then you can measure CYA precisely.
Keep adding Chlorine (bleach) until CD is 50% or less. You can also add (1-2 oz) MPS (aka non-chlorine shock) to give it an extra kick oxidizing waste.
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Hi guys,
I need some help fast as my tub keeps losing chlorine lately and I don't know why.....
Tub is approx 4 months old, we did the first water change about 2 months ago and another change about 2 weeks ago.
Everything seemed fine until about a week ago we had some ppl over that must of had soapy shorts and we had a bit of foam. I shocked it a couple times and added some Polysheen (clumps smaller particles into larger one's to help trap in filter and clear water) and Renew (enzyme toeat up organics in water)
After this the water seemed to clear up nice and foam was down. Let me add that I also cleaned the filter in chemical cleaner over night (filter brite I think) when the last water change was done two weeks ago. I gave filter rinse and put back. I have not cleaned or rinsed the filter since I have added polysheen and renew.
Now my problem is my tub keeps losing chlorine, I just use the floater with tablets and have it set around #4. I had to shock a couple times last week with minimal use because chlorine almost falling to zero on test strips.
Just tested the water today and here is what I got with strips, I did shock with spa lite about 2-3 days ago: (I have a Rainbow drop test kit I just purchased and will use it when I figure it out soon)
Chlorine 0 to 1
PH 7.4
Alk 80 (I will be increasing this today also)
Calcium hardness is around 300 I believe
Hopefully someone can shed some light for me
Thanks !!
First, you should NOT be using a floater with tablets. That is Trichlor and not recommend for hot tubs. It's too acidic and will desolve too fast. Read my top link below for the correct way to use Chlorine.
Second, do NOT raise your TA. Your pH is fine now. If you raise TA, your pH will rise too high. Again read the top link below for more info on Water Balance.
Lastly, you have high Chlorine Demand (CD). You need to shock until you get it back down. Read the link below about CD for more info.
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Hey Nitro,
Thanks, thought that was what ph minus was.
We are slooooooowly starting to figure out water chemistry. According to our drop tests, the CH is 110ppm, ph is 8, and TA is 60ppm, tub Size : 418 gallons, water temp is 101. Should we just add the ph minus until it is in the 7.5 range? Should we fret over the TA at all?
From what I have read from your posts, ph just tends to naturally creep up. To deal with that, do we simply keep testing and bring it down as needed? I now understand that TA controls the amount of ph creep and was wondering if a TA of 60ppm would be enough to keep the ph in check.
Adjust TA until pH stays in range. You may need to drop TA to 50 ppm for that to happen. Just keeping adding a TBS of Dry Acid until your pH stays 7.6-7.8 with the jets/air on. Then make note of your TA. Afer you get your pH stable, add Borates to lock it in.
FYI, I just got my pH stable at 7.6 with jets/air running for an hour, with TA at 50ppm. I just added 50 ppm Borates. I'm going to have a nice, much needed soak tonight.
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Thanks for the tip. I think that I will just bring the ph down with a prodcut called "Ph minus", we got it from Arctic Spa. Once that stuff is done then I will start using the muriatic acid method.
pH Minus is Dry Acid. Either Muriatic or Dry Acid will work at lowering TA/pH. Careful using Muriatic Acid. Check out my "Lowering TA" link below for more info.
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Using the Dichlor/Bleach method you can safely go 6 months on a fill. I'm refilling my tub today after ~7 months.
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So that would mean, the higher TDS (i.e. salt) the less pruning.
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Nitro here is a thought for you. Since the Nexa Timer is set to run on a set schedule and it is keeping the Free Chlorine within a set range. Would you need to worry about Cyanuric Acid? My Tub is inside so I don't need to worry about UV Rays and since the FC is always being regenerated one would not need to worry about the Buffer that CYA holds on the FC. Correct?
You still need CYA (20-30ppm), otherwise you woud need to keep FC < 1 ppm (not practical), or it would be too strong. Remember CYA not only protects against UV rays, it acts as a Chlorine buffer.
I would still follow the Dichlor/Bleach method. You may still need to add bleach (and/or MPS) during/after soaks, because the SWCG may not keep up while soaking, especially with high bather loads. The main purpose for the SWCG is to keep the FC constant, so you don't have to add bleach when not in use. Allthough I would still test daily until you get it tuned correctly.
The other thought is the Combined Chlorine is there a decent test to check that compared to Total Chlorine? Drop test compared to the Stick?Yeah, the Taylor K-2006 will measure CC directly.
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Interesting, thanks. What is the thing comes on while you are in the water? Is that a safety issue?
Can you use N2 + a SWCG?
Yes you can, but I'm not sure why you'd want to. I'd consider N2 a backup, unless you're going to go the no Chlorine route (i.e. MPS). However, if you're running a SWCG, you don't really need a backup.
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IMHO you won't have much luck with a NO Chlorine/Bromine system. But if you must I'd recommend Nature 2 instead. It uses Silver and MPS (non-chlrine shock). However it still recommends using Chlorine as a shock.
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I find it hard to believe your sensitive to ALL sanitizers. I'm thinking (as Chem Geek), it's something else, hot water, jets etc.
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Thanks, that's an interesting approach. Do people use Borates w/o Bromine?
What are the best brands for baking soda? What about soda ash? I'd like to get my spa in a state where it never needs muriatic acid...
If you read the Water Balance section in the link below, it will explain more in detail. Yes, Borates are recommended with Chlorine also.
Arm & Hammer Baking Soda and Acid is all you need. You don't need Soda Ash. Not likely you'll get to where you never need Acid or BS, but you can get it where you'll rarely need them.
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Hi Nitro-
Really learned a lot from reading your posts...
Anyway...are you running Nexa? I thought it was just 1500PPM? Do you turn it off when entering the spa?
I do worry about the motor, but I just put two new pumps in...wish I knew how the Maax AO Smith 2.5 HP pump was constructed to understand whether it has corrosive metals.
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Not running anything yet. I'm thinking about trying the Nexa this winter. It recommends only 1500ppm Salt, as others recommend 3500ppm, because it's more powerful. I think I'd still have 3500ppm Salt however. 3500ppm Salt is not that high, and well under sea water levels (35,000ppm). I read where corrosion can happen if your tub is not properly grounded. However, if your tub is not grounded, corrosion is the least of your worries.
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CYA should not be used in a spa or any indoor water body. It is very much under debate for outdoor applications and is now banned in New York State commercial pools with many other states are seriously considering siginificant restrictions. At a recent water conference, it was recommended that no more than 20ppm used outdoors if at all. All the research surrounding CYA did not consider bacterial biofilm in the water. Biofilms can absorb significant amounts of Free Available Chlorine out of solution rendering it undetectable and ineffective. The bacteria biofilms grow as the water temperature increases which further reduces FAC and increases Combined Chlorine. Check out this website; http://www.erc.montana.edu/ Without understanding the effect of the biofilm on the water, one could inaccurately assume that the UV from the sun is degrading all the chlorine.
Allan, you are completely WRONG, and with all due respect considered a Spammer in my opinion. Your only agenda here is to sell your product, which in my opinion is nothing more than a gimmick.
You still have not answered my question. Until you do, you have no credibility whatsoever.
"The consensus here is that a properly sanitized tub will not form biofilm. Are you saying this is not true, and the only way to keep a biofilm free tub is to use your product?"
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I'm of the opinion that 3500ppm Salt is not at all corrosive to hot tubs. I've yet to hear anything to the contrary. And yes, I believe Nexa is the better one, mainly because it's more powerful. I'd still have 3500ppm Salt in the tub, because it will create Chlorine faster.
Also, the water passing through the Unit has a high level of Chlorine (shocked). Therefore, I'm thinking it will keep Combined Chlorine (CC) low to zero. However, I think you still have to add Chlorine after soaks, but the unit will hold FC constant.
First Time Spa Owner Help
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
Welcome to the forum. You can start by reading the links below. If you have any question let us know.