Nitro
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Posts posted by Nitro
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I was actually hoping that you had some, and were holding back. LOL. Okay, how about the lady that burned herself from chlorine. Or the guy who breathed in Bromine and his lungs got sucked up by the filter. Ah, I made those up. I've just read lots of posts about smells, irritations, ugly smelly water, etc.
Be careful with that Hydrogen Peroxide you use to oxidize waste. It's nasty stuff at high concentration.
But in truth, I respect the knowledge of both you and Waterbear, I'm just a happy BaquaSpa user (so far...three years and counting).In truth I hope it works out for you. If so, maybe I'll try it. j/k
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Can you offer a few anecdotes about the downsides of Chlorine and Bromine?
Ok, let's hear them.
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We are new to the spa life - I've only had ours for two weeks now. And of course I am a cheap SOB looking to try save anywhere I can. I am using the mineral system with the non-chlorine activator, and dicholor shock. My city water is extremely soft and in the past week I've added almost a full pound of calcium chlorate to bring it up but the Free Chlorine level still keeps dropping to almost nothing after 24 hours, even using the activator. The hardness seems to be on the low end of good. I understand one of the biggest concerns with using the Calcium Hypochlorate (yes from Wallyworld - amazing how they can be so cheap) is that while sanitizing and adding chlorine, it can also increase the hardness. Being in a soft water situation, can I get away with using the Calcium Hypochlorate - until at least the hardness is on the high end? Makes more sense they using the more expensive dichlor & the added cost of calcium when I can use the cheaper product and get doses of both.
Thank you
Yes, you can. However you should have at least 20 ppm CYA. Dichlor adds CYA, so if you have added over 4 TBS total so far, you should be ok.
If you want the cheapest method of sanitation, check out my link below. You can use regular Clorox bleach, after using Dichlor for about a week or two.
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Chem Geek beat me to it.
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Bought a used 2004 Jacuzzi J-345 about a month ago, did the hardcore decontam procedure recommended on this site, changed filters, put in a new proclear/nature2, and followed Nitro's excellent guide to balancing the water. Chlorine demand was low afterwards.
Excellent!
I've put a decent amount of dichlor in over the month, and I'm expecting the CYA level to rise...but according to the strip it's still below the lowest color (marked "Very Low"). It says "stabilizer" so I'm assuming that's CYA. I know a Taylor-2006 kit would be optimal, but I don't want to drop 70-80 on a kit. Are there others that might be more affordable? I would LOVE a link if somebody can point one out.I really recommend getting the Taylor kit, not for just measuring CYA, but for TA/pH/CH. Getting the TA/pH correct is difficult without it. With that said, if you want to get your CYA correct, you can calculate your CYA by how much Dichlor you have added. For every 10 ppm Free Chlorine (FC) you add, you also add 9 ppm CYA. Also, CYA doesn't have to be exact. Anywhere between 20-50 ppm is fine.
2nd question is I keep the FC around 1-2ppm, so I assume after I soak for 20-30 minutes that the Chlorine is being used (sometimes I get in after tennis), so when I get out I feel the need to add more dichlor to make up for what was just used, and not MPS...but I usually throw some in too just cause I think I'm supposed to. Should I use chlorinated shock, or stop using MPS until my CYA rises, or keep my FC higher? What if I'm preparing for 4 people to come soak for a while, raise the FC a bit and add MPS every now and then if needed?Chlorine does two things, it kills bacteria, and oxidizes bather waste (sweat, urine etc.). MPS only oxidizes bather waste, but does it very well. During a soak oxidizing bather waste is what the sanitizer does the most, especially if you're sweating alot. i.e. after playing tennis. Therefore, using MPS will help oxidize waste, and your FC will stay around the level you started at.
A couple caveats though: MPS is acidic, and if you use alot, it will lower your TA/pH. Therefore you need to keep an eye on your pH. Also, some people are sensitve to MPS, so be aware if anyone gets itchy skin afterward.
If it's just you and your partner, you can keep the FC around 1-2 ppm. If you have guests, you may want to raise it to 3-6 ppm. If you use MPS before and durring the soak, the FC will stay close to the same.
I usually just use MPS for shocking once a week (or as needed) to clean up Combined Chlorine (CC) etc. After a high bather load is when CC can really build up if you don't use enough Chlorine, so I may use a little MPS before and during a party. That really helps keep the Chlorine Demand (CD) and CC down.
Oh and should I ever test for MPS for any reason?I've never needed to.
And lastly a minor question... I have an ozonator (of some kind), does that have any effect on free chlorine? Saleslady seems to think that it actually reduced it over time.An Ozonator will raise your IDLE CD, but will help oxidize waste after use. That means your FC will drop a little faster with it running.
Thanks for any input everyone!Hope that helps.
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There has been some discussion about Biguanide (Soft Soak, Baquacil etc) lately, so I thought I'd post some important info. Anyone considering this method of sanitation needs to read this.
Here is a post by Waterbear (the expert on the subject) from this thread.
Biguanide works by causing bacterial cells to 'explode'. The 'baquagoo' is actually the remains of the cell wall and other stuff. Biguanide is not an oxidizer so these bacterial remains do not get 'burned off' like they do with chlorine and bromine. The peroxide oxidier that is used with biguanide does help burn them off to an extent but it is not as strong an oxidizing agent at the concentrations used. Higher concentrations are out of the question because they would cause bather discomfort, to say the least!This goo gets collected in the filter where it is, hopefully, removed by frequent filter cleaning (MUCH more fequent than is needed with either chlorine or bromine.)
This is just the nature of the beast, so to speak, when using a biguanide system.
Also, since it is basically a biocide like the antibiotics our doctor's prescribe it has been found that bacteria do develop an immunity to it over time much like they can do with antibiotics, which is why both pink slime and white water mold, which are both bacterial, are a problem with biguanide system.
Biguanide is also used as a medical preservative and there has been a case in recent years where it was used in a popular contact lens solution that let to the outbreak of a corneal amoeba infection that led to blindness in several cases. There was a large recall of this well known contact lens solution just a few years back because of this. Once again this seems to be more evidence of it's limited effectiveness as a biocide. Also, it is not registered for use in Canada. What do they know that we don't?
Add to this the known fact that biguanide will destroy certain plastics that have been used in spas and are suspected of affecting pump seals makes this, IMHO, a sanitizer of last resort for those who CANNOT use either chlorine or bromine (rare but it does happen!)
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As always, putting down the Biguanide choice.
Because it's more expensive, harder to use and causes more problems. I know more people that stopped using biguanide than I do currently using it. You seem to be the only one on this board (and that I know) that uses biguanide. What does that tell you?
Apparently the original author didn't much like Bromine.Probably because he was duped into thinking biguanide is better. Well he just figured out it's not.
Honestly, I read as many complaints about Chlorine and Bromine as I would expect proportionally about Biguanide.Maybe because alot more people use Chlorine and Bromine than biguanide.
I know...if done correctly, they'd be perfect.Even if biguanide is used correctly it can cause problems. Not so with Chlorine/Bromine.
Again I'm glad biguanide is working out for you, and hopefully you won't have problems. But it is the LEAST (of the 3 FDA approved methods) recommended way to sanitize a hot tub. My advice to anyone reading this is to stay away from it, UNLESS as a last resort, which would be very rare.
Happy tubbing!
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I was using chlorine, but because of the white mold issue I switched to bromine after I emptied the spa.
If you were using Chlorine and you developed White Mold, you weren't doing it correctly. i.e. you weren't using enough Chlorine. OR if you were using Dichlor only, your CYA built up too high diminishing it's ability to sanitize.
Check out my link below for info on how to use Chlorine correctly. Also, check out my Decon link on how to clean your tub up.
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What method of sanitation are you using?
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Yes, try to get as much goo off using scrapper, Spa Flush, etc. Afterward I would do a Supershock to clean it all out from the tub, pipes etc. First add Spa Flush (Purge etc) to the tub and let sit overnight. Drain, clean again and refill. Then supershock with Chlorine Bleach (2 cups Clorox) AND MPS (Non-Chlorine Shock 4 oz). Let the jets run for an hour, and let sit over night. This may be an overkill, but it should clean your tub up like new. If not, drain, clean, refill and repeat supershock. Lastly, buy a new filter, because yours is most likely a mess.
Then decide which sanitation method you want to use. Hopefully it will either be Chlorine or Bromine. If you do decide to try Soft Soak (not recommended), you'll need to drain the tub, suck the jets out with a wet vac to remove as much water as possible. Otherwise any Chlorine in the water will react with the Soft Soak and you'll be right back where you started, which may happen anyway if you have Chlorine in your tap water.
Hope that helps.
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My advice is to forget Soft Soak and any other biguanide products. Otherwise, you'll have these (and other) problems. Why did you switch from Bromine?
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I appreciate your experience and reassurance, especially since I may someday be forced to switch from BaquaSpa. I seem to recall from several years ago that Bromine systems are discouraged for indoor use (I may just be imagining that), so I could end up with Chlorine, and I hope it's as successful as yours has been. Of course, until then....
Maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones, and won't get any funky Pink/White/Mold/Slime stuff.
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I have no reason not to believe your first point, that I might not know that you are using Chlorine if I soaked in your tub. I'll also concede that you probably spend less money than I do. But less time...I doubt it. I put in a few minutes once a week. It's so quick and easy that I sometimes feel guilty, LOL. That's why I'm willing to spend a little extra money. And I have perfect water with no odor or side effects. I am not putting down Chlorine, simply saying that done properly, BaquaSpa is laughably easy.
If I were to add up the total amount of time per week I maintain my tub water, it would be about 5 mins. I bring a bottle of Chlorine to the tub when I soak. Then I squirt in the right amount after I get out, and cover it up. I'm at the point where I only check the FC/pH once a week. It doesn't get much easier than that. On my next water change I'll be trying out a SWCG. That should be interesting.
I'm glad BaquaSpa is working out for you (for now), but to consider it much easier to use than Chlorine is a mistake. It really isn't.
Happy tubbing.
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PS,
I'd be willing to bet if you soaked in my tub, you wouldn't even know I'm using Chlorine. I'd also be willing to bet I spend less time (and a lot less money) maintaining my tub than you.
The biggest reason people get turned off from Chlorine is because they don't use enough. If your tub is well disinfected, you won't notice ANY chlorine smell.
To be honest, I find it silly (sad really) that all these people are looking for an alternative to Chlorine (maybe Bromine). Chlorine is the safest, cheapest and easist to use sanitizer there is, PERIOD! The ONLY reason to use bromine is if you leave the tub alone for long periods. Even then I believe a SWCG is the way to go.
IMHO Chlorine is King.
But what do I know.
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I'm bumping this thread because there has been some recent talk about AquaFinesse.
Here's my opinion on it. AquaFinesse is nothing more than a Spa Flush, Purge etc. that you add to the tub before refilling to clean the plumbing. There is nothing wrong with that, but remember it is NOT a sanitizer by itself. You still need to use Chlorine to kill and oxidize bacteria/waste. (i.e. it's NOT Chemical Free) Don't think just because your pipes are clean you can keep a lower Free Chlorine level while soaking. All it means is your Chlorine Demand is low, and you won't need to add as much Chlorine to keep the level up. But as Check Chem mentioned above, most of the work goes to oxidizing waste, not killing bacteria.
HOWEVER, if you use enough chlorine, your tub will not form biofilm, and your pipes will stay clean (i.e. low CD). My recommendation is to use plenty of chlorine (or bromine), and clean your pipes once or twice a year with Spa Flush/Purge etc. If you do this you won't need to use AquaFinesse on a continuous basis, which isn't exactly cheap.
Bottom line: the less sanitizer (chlorine/bromine) you have in the tub during soaking, the riskier it is. Nature2 (Silver Ion's and MPS) is the only possible exception at this time. But IMO you still need some Chlorine, especially during high bather loads.
Be safe.
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If you're using bleach, the TDS that you're adding to the tub is plain old Salt. Salt is not a problem as say CYA and other TDS. I'd say you can safely go 6 months between water changes when using bleach. My last water change was almost 7 months, and my water was fine before.
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Here's my opinion.
If it's just me and the misses, I'll let it drop to 1ppm without worry. However, if I have quests, I won't let it drop below 3ppm. 4-6ppm is fine.
Remember, if you have 20-30 ppm CYA, even 10 ppm FC is less Active Chlorine than a public indoor pool.
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Just imagine if you were using a sanitation method that doesn't kill bacteria very well, "Peroxysan" (i.e. Hydogen Peroxide). This poster is trying to convince you to do just that.
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6 Minutes in that chlorine chemical bath and your skin has absorbed as much chlorine that is equivalent 10 glasses of tap water. Plus all the related dry skin issues. No thanks especially with all that work of testing testing and more testing.
Here is what I have finally decided works for us.
ours is an indoor 7 person tub, it has a salt water generator (now disconnected)
Tried the Bromine thing "nah" to many variables - testing is continuas etc.
Will not use chlorine "we all know that its a carcinogen lets admit it"
Finally was told by a hot tub "specialist" to use Lithium, a very high chlorine base. However it will test zero within 1 hour of putting it into your tub 1tbs per day (after bathing) this we were told would be our solution. This s--- actually drove our ph onto the crazy scale we couldn't keep up with the sudden variations.
Also because it is indoors we have a fan running from the side vent to try to keep the temp. down as quite often it gets up to 103 - 104.
Now we have been looking into the peroxide solution for quite a while, but all the "experts" that had helped me so far kept claiming how bad it was going to be and blah blah blah.
We took the plunge last fall (6 months ago) I can tell everyone that this stuff is amazing.
1. I have not done a chemical analysis or home test since.
2. I add 1 litre per week (a cost of $7.00) and rinse out the filter.
3. The water is absolutely sparkling
4. Our skin is soooo soft My wife is amazed
5. We are in it EVERY night
6. No other chemicals like stabilizer, bubble burst, ph up, down.
7. Actual product name is Peroxysan.
Do not let the "experts tell you this is bad" try it,
Anyone, who wants to try using only hydogen peroxide as a sanitizer be warned, you will be at risk of getting a nasty bactera infection.
Sounds like this poster is a sales person for "Peroxysan". SPAM
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There are advantages and disadvantages to both Chlorine and Bromine. I would stay away from bigaunide though. Here is link with my opinion on the subject.
BTW, I wouldn't leave a Bromine tub for 3 weeks, without checking, maybe 2. You can safely leave a Chlorine tub for a week if your Chlorine Demand is low (~25%). I'd say you can go about twice as long with Bromine than Chlorine. However, I know people that had trouble going a week without checking their Bromine tub.
Bottom line, if you learn to maintain your tub water correctly (irregardless of sanitation method), you will spend very little time maintaining the water, and most of your time soaking.
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Everything is fine. What's the problem?
Just use Dichlor a couple more times until CYA hits 30, then switch to bleach. Don't worry about CC as long as it's under 1.0. Your TA/pH are perfect. You might consider raising CH to 150.
Enjoy!
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DE, that's what I was thinking of.
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I use the Taylor K2106 (bromine but same idea as K2006). It works extremely well. The key to getting the water right is understanding water balance. I didn't really understand the relationships between TA, PH and CA until I got the Taylor kit which came with a watergram http://piscines-apollo.com/images/watergram_circular.jpg
The watergram put in a pictoral sense what paragraphs of text couldn't convey.
Man that's a cool little gadget. Anyone sell it separately? Thanks!
Hey... I'm a Fungi
Even better, check out The Pool Calculator. It does everything that does and much more.
Except that to do that I have to run all the way into the house, upstairs, boot the computer, navigate, fill in the spreadsheet, write down the results, go back outside and get back to work
You should consider calculating how much of the chemicals you need to add up front, then add them to the tub.
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funny thing about borates.....it's the active ingredient in Terro ant killer.
Yup. Concentration is everything. Eating too much salt will kill you as well.
Doesn't Borax dry out the ant shells causing them to die?
Nitro's Decontamination Procedure
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
Yes, at a chlorine level of 50 ppm, it won't matter.
FYI, on step 5 you can also add 2 oz MPS (non-chlorine shock) right before you add the chlorine. That will really give it a good shock.
I think you will like Chlorine.