Pool-newb

I have a 1.5 hp dual speed pump and I love it. It is "way too big" for my small pool but the savings are tremendous. When I add chemicals or need a fast turnover I can put it on high speed and will get things done quickly. For standard long term filtering I use the slow speed which as mentioned above is about 75% cheaper - not to mention quieter - to run. I went with Hayward not because I'm so convinced of their quality but mostly because they are the biggest which means lots of experience, lots of posts from users and lots of places to find cheap product.

That's a good point and I haven't really considered it yet. When manufacturers recommend a particular SWG model for a particular pool size, what is the basis for their calculations. IMHO, having the biggest SWG possible is better because it won't need to run all the time or at full power and that means the cell will last much longer. However, there are limits and if you get an SWG that can't be reduced below your routine cl requirements, it could get messy.

Corey, Just looking through all this here it looks like these are your options: Solar - Cheap to purchase, easy to install, zero cost to operate but not very effective unless you install a lot of them. You probably have the space to add several more and they aren't horribly expensive. You can also add them without excluding any other form of heating, but they may not work well in winter. Heat pump - a bit expensive to purchase and install but cheap in the long run. It will use electricity but but not as a resistive heat source which would be waaaay too expensive. Also won't do much when outside temps are below about 10° or 15°C so it won't extend your season much. Wood fired - a little cheaper to purchase than a heat pump, very simple to install can be cheap to operate. It will also provide lots of heat year round. However, it does require extra effort and energy (and money if you don't have the trees) cutting the trees, storing the wood till it's ready to burn, and keeping the fire going while it's heating the pool. One other possibility that you may have already considered - is the pool itself well insulated? I know that a solar cover makes a huge difference (if you don't have one yet, get one soon. Very effective!) and I could imagine having an insulated shell around the outside of the pool could go a long way to reducing heat loss once you do get it warmed up. Make sure you post some photos of your decision :-)

I think the non-stabilized pucks are impossible because they actually use CYA to make chlorine. I also think the chlorine would dissipate in the supply chain even if they could find a way of making it into such a hard cake that it would erode as slowly as the current pucks do. I've also been thinking about using by old feeder to do something but it just doesn't work out. My current setup with the tubing and bag also the problem that it doesn't maintain steady state droplet speed as the source weight diminishes. One possible fix for this is to put a weight on the water bag - say an old bucket full of 3" tabs - that would keep the output pressure steady. I was at Leslie's again today and they have the Hayward 40,000 gallon SWG for 899.- after rebate and discount. Good till May 25. Dang I wanna do it.

Phosphonic Acids? I guess I'm hooked on phosphonics then. I posted the details in another forum but I have managed to set up a chlorine feeder that is keeping the cl and ORP an appropriate level. I sure appreciate the help Richard and I gotta tell you, despite the cost and complexity of this (at a chemistry level), I've learned a lot. Thanks again!

I am again using the equipment in the photos above to chlorinate ("bleachinate"?) my pool. But instead of making holes in my plumbing I: - filled the bag with 1 large bottle of cheap ($3.00/196 oz, probably 5%) K-mart bleach and a little more than two bottles of water (diluted down to about 30% of original so probably under 2% cl) - Hung the bag in a shaded deck box not far from the pool and about 2-3 ft above water level - Laid the line on the ground up to the pool - clamped (restricted) the line so that it was giving me about a drop per second I've had to adjust it twice so far - first it was less than one drop per second and CL got too low. After a long overnight the CL was about right so I just barely reduced it again - probably very close to 1 drop per second, and after about two days the CL level looks fairly good, no adjustment needed right now but I may increase it just a tiny bit because the weather has been cold and the cover has stayed on. Not very elegant but this has a bunch of advantages: - doesn't rely on plumbing - doesn't cost much - maybe $10 - easy to set up - requires no electricity But it has disadvantages: - getting the drip rate correct can take a while (several days). - drip rate will probably change as the weight in the water bag changes and probably as outside temperatures change - Getting the hose connected to the water bag was a pain and it does drip veeeery slowly. Need to improve - having a hose laying across the the pool deck is a trip hazard and doesn't look good (if I had a diving board, under there would be a good option). .

Ahhh That makes sense. I have an 8,500 gal in-ground pool and I do not intend to get the smallest IG SWclG system available even though they are usually rated at 15,000 gals (I'll probably get the middle sized one). The smaller the cell, the more often you have to replace it, and because of the precious metals in them they are expensive. I suspect that is where Intex makes their money (combined with dirt-cheap labor in China and the price pressure from Walmart). Sell a system that is under-dimensioned for the intended function, then sell replacement cells two or three years down the road. Actually not a bad tactic and may even be close to acceptable for the consumer who wants to get by a cheaply as possible right now. The code-91 fault is a low salt warning, but apparently is it appearing in some devices despite appropriate salt content of the water. As I understand it, the low salt is measured by monitoring for low current flow accross the plates. If it is too low, the SWclG "thinks" it's because there is not enough salt in the water, but because the Intex can have a faulty power supply it doesn't provide enough current accross the plates so the monitoring system thinks the salt is low. .

Where do the air bubbles appear - from the lid, from the input side, output side, or elsewhere. - If they're from the lid, clean and lube the gasket - maybe even replace. - If they're from the input (suction) side, it's a plumbing problem - If they're from the output side (going towards the pump impeller and motor) it's probably a pump problem - anywhere else could indicate a hairline crack in the pump body that may not be visible if the pump is turned off. This is all assuming that there is no water leaking out anywhere when the pump is running or off.

If the vitamin C didn't do anything then it's probably organic of some type and the stains should disappear slowly once the cl levels are established for a while - at least I have read of that happening. The only difference between the vitamin C tablets and the citrus fruit is that you don't have any manufacturing problems with the fruit - you know it contains ascorbic whereas the tablets could theoretically (put probably aren't) fakes. Have you tried scrubbing a small portion of the stain - perhaps even using some bleach on an area?

That makes 2 against and one for Intex. dymondgeezer: The Code-91 seems to be a problem with a shorting or under-cooled or undersized power supply and there are things on the web about it. For me the most worrying thing about the Intex is that they seem to be an order of magnitude cheaper than the other well knowns and I have to wonder why they manage to make them so cheap. I'm certain that there are others like yourself who are satisfied that maybe have a newer/older model or have them installed in cooler locations, or maybe it's moisture or or or. Of course this information wouldn't necessarily appear in any kind of review; If someone takes ten models and performs blind testing in a fixed environment for a day or two, the results may show that all of them work perfectly. That same test could show a failure in an otherwise great model that is not representative of that particular model. ps558 - Why do you say stay away from these models - have you had bad experiences with them or do you work in the industry? I have read bad things about the Zodiac on the web, and I've seen conflicting comments about the Intex. Also, lets not forget the swimming pool behemoth company - Hayward. I believe they have at least two lines of SWGs - Aqua Rite™ and SwimPure™ and I couldn't tell the difference between them; capacity, price and design seem to be similar or even identical. I am actually thinking about a Hayward model because they offer optional automation and my local pool store has them on sale.

You don't want to let the pump start automatically if it won't prime or if it loses it's prime. I have no experience with that pump (I am also new here) but I did have plumbing problems when I first got my pool. Here are some general things I would look at while you wait for someone more knowledgeable to answer about that pump. Priming the pump with a garden hose could be difficult because the water you're trying to spray in is just going through the plumbing back down to the pool. Inspect the plumbing on the suction side from the pump down to where the pipes go into the ground. If there are any valves. make sure they are open and that nothing is leaking (sucking air). If you do have functioning valves on the suction side you could close them whenever you want to clean the basket and that should keep the basket area full of water. I replaced all my above ground plumbing last year and I put a ball valve on every pipe that came out of the ground. It makes it very easy to maintain prime while I clean the pump basket or do anything else to the system. I would also re-re-re inspect the rubber o-ring on the lid, maybe even replace it. I cannot imagine that it is normal for water to squirt out from the lid seal. Remove it (if you can without damaging anything), make sure there is no foreign matter between it and the sealing surfaces, then put some pool lube on it. Pool lube is a grease much like Vaseline but is made specifically for pool applications (don't use Vaseline!) that will help the o-ring seat and seal. Local pool store should have it. After you've done all this watch the pump while it's running. Does the pump strained basket area fill with air or does it fill fully with water with no air bubbles? If everything is perfect you will see nothing but water in the strained basket while the pump is running - no bubbles, no air. If you're seeing huge amounts of air, or if the basket never gets mostly full of water you have a leak or some other problem.

My best, uneducated guess is that the well water probably contained some metals, shocking the water brought them out of suspension and dropped them onto the pool walls. The metal remover may be holding the rest in in suspension preventing the pool store metals testing from seeing it. Get a sample of your well water tested for metals from the pool store to see if they can find it there. My store didn't test for metals unless I specifically asked for it so you may want to just ask them immediately how much metal is in the sample - they won't need to do the other tests. You can also use half a citrus fruit to rub on a stain (even underwater) and if it disappears then it is metal stains. If this is the case, you'll need to do an ascorbic acid treatment. It's a pain in the butt but it works well (I've done it twice recently, search for my posts for more info).

Having just freshly learned about metal stains (thanks agian Richard!) ... Do you eat citrus fruit? If you have some in the house (I used a grapefruit skin after I had eaten most of it, lemons are more often recommended), cut one in half and rub the half on the stain. If the stain goes away, you have metals. Also try just scrubbing the stain with a brush and maybe some soap if you can do it on a part that won't let the soap into the water. If the stain removes with the citrus fruit, you have metals - probably iron or copper. If you can remove it with soap or scrubbing, it's probably organic. The citrus fruit trick also works with some ground up vitamin C tablets. If you do have metal staining you can remove the stains with ascorbic acid and the vitamni C or citrus fruit is simply using the ascorbic acid in those items to test for the metals. I have severe metal staining but my pool store cannot find any metal in the water either. I'm not certain why but its probably because I used some metal sequestrant before I had them test it. In your case it may be that the metals are all attached to the pool hardware instead of in suspension where they can be tested. If it is metal the next question is where did it come from? If you have a heater and have only recently (past year or two) installed the SWG, then your heater may be corroding. SWGs and heaters do not mix well unless the heater has a cupro or some metal other than copper specially designed to resist the salt water. In addition, many heater manufacturers have in their fine print that high TDS (as is in every SWG pool) damage will result in warranty non-coverage. The other thing I recommend is getting your own test kit and learn how to use it. I first bought one at Leslie's and it works but the TF-100 (link in my signature) is more complete and uses the FAS-DPD test which can more accurately measure higher levels of cl. There is also a Taylor kit with FAS-DPD available. The DPD that Leslie's and my kit use does not accurately show levels over 5 ppm, and can be very misleading if you (or the pool store) tries to guess at levels above that because excessive chlorine can bleach out the color and make it look much lower than it really is. Which part of Atlanta? I'm in Peachtree City.

Hey, thanks for the comments. I have about a gazillion wrinkles in my current liner but instead of working them out, I will have the liner replaced at some point. I am contemplating doing it myself and this will help me understand how to get the wrinkles out as I fill the pool.

Super, thanks for the comments, especially on Intex. I haven't heard that they have problems but I fully expected it. From the comments I've seen on the web they were just too cheap to even work, much less work well. Anyone else want take their Intex back to WM?

I checked, sequestrant is the noun sequestrate is the verb. My stupid spell check didn't accept sequestrant ... but I digress. It was pretty clear that the cc went away as soon as stain returned - or vice versa, and therefore my assumption that the sequestrant is the cause of the chlorine demand. The other part of this is of course the temperature. I still have the heat going but it has reached 30°C/86F° and I will be letting the fire die out over the next few hours. We did have a nice swim this evening despite cloudy skies and coolish temperatures. Not wanting to let cl go too low, and not wanting to get to shock levels, I've rigged up my bleach drip feeder. I mixed one 192 oz bottle of cheap K-Mart (not strength marked but probably 5% when it was manufactured), with just a little more than two bottles full of pool water and put it in a 5 gal camping water bag. I attached a 1/4" hose to the output of the bag and hung the bag in the pool tool box - cool and shady - and put the other end across the pool deck and hanging into the water. I put an adjustable crimper near the pool end of the tubing and crimped it down to about 1 drop per second. If my careful guestimated calculated values are correct (I counted 680 drops for two ounces then calculated up and back from there), that should slowly raise the cl level over time or possibly break even. I am guessing the bag last two or three days at this drip rate, barring failures on the water bag connection and any differences in the drip rate once the bag gets towards empty. My last test showed about 2ppm cl, and just barely 1 ppm cc, and the ORP was in the upper 500s. As clear and clean as the water appears I can't Imagine there are any other contaminants but I will keep observing. So my only question for today; Is there chemically any way to actually remove the metals from the water? I have read that Metal Magic by Proteam Products or one fo the Jacks Stuff will actually remove the metals. Is this accurate? (Ok, two questions.)

Yep, I posted the 8,500 gal thing in my signature. I checked overnight and it is dropping and I do have my basic 0.5 cc (no other specific numbers yet, a t-storm rolled through just when I started testing) though I'm getting the impression that the drop is slowing a bit. Right now I'm pretty convinced that the sequestrate is using the cl. Please tell me if this isn't the case. I've restarted the fire and it's been burning since last night which makes me ponder how much the temperature effects the chemistry. Also, the pH is still low - (I'm getting phone numbers or something else from my pH meter because it sure isn't pH - maybe need to calibrate) but I've discovered that on low speed I can slightly open a sample port on the return side and it will actually suck air into the return lines. So now I'm aerating slowly as well as using bleach to get the pH up. I'm also going to set up an "IV drip for the pool" using a 5 gal camping water bag, some tubing and a valve to allow diluted bleach to drip into the pool. Not very pretty but effective.

Here's what finally happened with my pool. As I saw those small rust spots I was also watching the free chlorine and combined chlorine very closely. Well I had an underlying level of cc so I shocked several times untill the cc went to zero. Coincidentally, the staining reappeared over the entire pool at the same time - within a few hours. Here's what I think happened (my pH has been fairly low ~6.9-7.3 the entire time): - Ascorbic acid first consumed the chlorine and then took the stains off the walls and put the metal into the water. - The sequestrate kept the metal suspended but also consumed chlorine creating combined chlorine. - My plumbing failed and I didn't maintain a sanitizing level of cl for several days - After the plumbing fix I saw the cc and kept shocking to remove it. - the shocking finally removed the sequestrate and that sent the stains back to the So I retreated with ascorbic acid, waiting until just after the cl hit zero to put it in. Again the results were amazing - by the time I got all the way around the pool with the powder, the stains were already disappearing from the spot where I started. I also used much less ascorbic acid this time around. I will now - Maintain a sanitizing level of cl - ignore a low level of cc but monitor it anyway - add a sequestrate weekly And a some point in the distant future I will replace the liner and therefore all the water and maybe add an SWG. Did you ever get your pool measurements straight? How is your pool now?

I am now in maintenance mode again with the fire burning in the heater but with a very high rate of chlorine use. So far it seems I'm using 8-16 cups of 6.15% bleach a day. I think the summary is: - CYA CAN dissipate from a pool very quickly, we just don't know yet which organism or mechanism is behind it. - Metal (Iron at least) stains can be removed from the walls and floors very easily and fairly quickly with ascorbic acid and a sequestrate but the sequestrate will consume chlorine, and the sequestrate must be held at a minimum level. The sequestrate will also cause a small combined chlorine level that should be ignored. - With a sequestrate in the water, go easy on the shocking. ... and last but not least ... - Don't let the pool get below sanitize chlorine levels for any length of time! Even if the pump breaks down, add some bleach and slosh it around.

*+ bump +* Nobody has any opinions - good or bad - about the salt system they've purchased?

Pool is now again shiny and clean and new. I even made a video of the whole process and as I scatter the ascorbic acid around the pool you can see it start to act on the initial spot before I even finish moving all the way around the pool. I let it do it's thing for several hours then added 2 quarts of bleach. About 2 hours later I did a quick test of the cl and it was zero so I once again added 2 quarts. Another 2 hours later it looks like about 2 ppm and ORP in the mid 500s so maybe the cl is holding for now - meaning the ascorbic acid is consumed and from now on I'll only have the Metal Free consuming the cl. From those values I also think the cya may be lower than first thought so I'll recheck it again on Saturday (busy on Friday) though the low pH may explain why the orp was so high for that cl/cya combination. The pH is of course low - around 6.8 - and I'm hoping it wont bother the heater core. It is stainless steel and I have other stainless steel parts around the pool that were not corroded by the previous owners ignorance of pH levels so I see no reason to worry but if anyone has another opinion I'd be happy to hear it. Before swimming I intend to raise the pH. I was expecting to need more bleach and thought I might get away with raising it that way but it looks like I'll have to get my shop vac out again and run it backwards. This works great but is irritating. I could add baking powder but I don't want to get my TA up too high. I confirmed the temperature really was at 27° which means the air is warming the pool. I don't get much direct sun but it was still surprising to see it go from 24.5° - 27.0°C in around 7 hours. It was a nice warm day here to so maybe not 27 but probably approaching that. I wonder if the chemical reactions going on in the pool might be exothermic? Since I didn't really test well I wont bother with values but we can say there is a bit of cl in the pool, the ORP is at a bearable level for the night, and we'll see how it is tomorrow. Wow, I just imagined actually swimming in this thing someday - d'ya think? .... Naaaww, Can't be!

Well at least he didn't stick two bare wires in and tell you he was shocking the pool .... I think the liners are pretty stable and if the pump was moving water your pool possibly did achieve "break-point chlorination". When shocking the goal is to get it in quick so the free chlorine has a chance to do it's thing. But still, there may have been a better way of doing things, and looking at the package directions would be one way to check up on what he did. The guys at troublefreepool.com were kind enough to create a pool school and I think if you read through everything it will answer all you questions and some you didn't even know you had. The link is http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/. There are generally much better and/or cheaper ways to do things than the pool stores usually recommend, and the pool school will clear things up. Especially watch for the BBB way to maintain your pool, and check in on the pool calculator to figure out how much of everything you need. Welcome to the club

Ok, went to the pool store (so why do they always smile when they see me even though I use BBB?) and left with over $100 worth of: - ascorbic acid (I know, it's cheaper online but they can't deliver in 10 minutes, and it's not much cheaper) - Metal Free (sequestrate) - one gallon of liquid stabilizer (direction say I need 1 gal for a 34 ppm rise in 10000 gals so I'll probably use about a quart) - one container of R-0013 (test reagent for cya) I ran a complete test of everything (calc was 60 ppm) (last entry below) and then added the ascorbic acid. Once again, within just a few minutes much of the stain was gone, but I am going to wait a while before I backwash and start adding cl. There's still a lot of general discoloration. Amazing how much cl was swallowed overnight just by adding the sequestrate. I can imagine I am going have to fight again for a few days to get the fc back up. Also I can't trust the electronic measurements. the temp can't be 27, the pH showed a little low so I used the drop kit. The cya is now over 40 I believe because of the two tabs I let erode in the floating feeder. I'll probably add a little more - but not much. Date ── : 5/9 ─── 5/10 ── 5/10 ── 5/11 ── 5/11 ── 5/11 ── 5/12 ── 5/12 ── 5/13 ── 5/13 ── 5/13 ── 5/14 ── 5/14 Time ── : 23:32 ─ 11:12 ─ 19:47 ─ 09:27 ─ 20:27 ─ 21:39 ─ 10:23 ─ 18:17 ─ 10:51 ─ 12:42 ─ 22:56 ─ 09:09 ─ 16:36 Tmp°C ─ : 25.7 ── 25.4 ── 26.5 ── 24.9 ── 28.0 ── 28.2 ── 27.0 ── 28.1 ── 28.0 ── 27.9 ── 25.7 ── 24.5 ── 27.? ORP ─── : 714 ─── 644 ─── 638 ─── 645 ─── 617 ─── 649 ─── 645 ─── 642 ─── 638 ─── 717 ─── 642 ─── 612 ─── 340 pH ──── : 7.59 ── 7.43 ── 7.32 ── 7.27 ── 7.17 ── 7.39 ── 7.30 ── 7.18 ── 7.13 ── 7.4 ─── 7.2 ─── 7.26 ── 7.2 FC ──── : 13.5 ── 8.5 ─── 5.5 ─── 5.5 ─── 3.0 ─── 13.5 ── 9.0 ─── 8.5 ─── 5.0 ─── 14.5 ── 13.0 ── 2.5 ─── 0.0 CC ──── : 1.0 ─── 0.5 ─── 0.5 ─── 0.5 ─── 1.5 ─── 0.5 ─── 2.0 ─── 1.5 ─── 2.0 ─── 0 ───── 1.0 ─── 2.0 ─── 0.5 TA ──── : ─────── 110 ─── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── 100 CYA ─── : ─────── ─────── ─────── 20 ──── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── 40

Help me Obiwan-ChemGeek-Kenobi .... I feel like one of those Russian doll sets, only this time each doll you open is bigger than the one before, and there is no "biggest". I think I understand now what is happening, so what do I do to interrupt it - short of drain and refill? I agree with the estimation that the sequestrate is causing the cc. Just after I noticed the stains yesterday (at 10:51) and tested, I also added a little more than what the package of Metal Free by Natural Chemistry recommended should be a standard dose. While it didn't remove the stains as of a few minutes ago, it did remove the fc and gave me cc. My best guess is that with the sequestrate in the water, the pool store will measure no metals because the sequestrate holds them back wish I'd kept a sample of 0 cc water to have the pool test but hindsight is 20/20). At the same time, the chlorine is "consuming" the sequestrate and that's why I get cc. (cc returned just after I added the large dose of sequestrate, and fc is way down overnight.) So what it looks like I'll need to do is wait for a near zero fc level, do the ascorbic acid treatment/sequestrate once more, raise fc to appropriate sanitize for my cya, and then ignore the 0.5 cc that I will get from then on and assume a higher cl demand, keeping a weekly cap-full of sequestrate in the water. I have removed the cover, we may have some sunshine today (dang, wanted to kep the temp up) and it looks like I won't have to wait long for a low fc level. For example now already. My best test device for perceived water quality and smell has been my wife. While I can't calibrate her, the resolution is good and the sensitivity is fantastic. If I smell a slight chlorine odor, she says it stinks really badly. If I see a slight discoloration somewhere, she wonders where all those ugly stains come from. And when she starts seeing/smelling/feeling that something is wrong, I'm still looking at a perfect pool. Her nose has been telling me that the pool has a strong odor, I only notice a slight intermittent smell. The visual water quality is ok though. Is there anything else I need to think about? Is there any way to get the metals out of the water, not just off the walls? Once again Richard, thanks for your valuable input - especially at 3 am (I was there then too :-)! Date ── : 5/9 ─── 5/10 ── 5/10 ── 5/11 ── 5/11 ── 5/11 ── 5/12 ── 5/12 ── 5/13 ── 5/13 ── 5/13 ── 5/14 Time ── : 23:32 ─ 11:12 ─ 19:47 ─ 09:27 ─ 20:27 ─ 21:39 ─ 10:23 ─ 18:17 ─ 10:51 ─ 12:42 ─ 22:56 ─ 09:09 Tmp°C ─ : 25.7 ── 25.4 ── 26.5 ── 24.9 ── 28.0 ── 28.2 ── 27.0 ── 28.1 ── 28.0 ── 27.9 ── 25.7 ── 24.5 ORP ─── : 714 ─── 644 ─── 638 ─── 645 ─── 617 ─── 649 ─── 645 ─── 642 ─── 638 ─── 717 ─── 642 ─── 612 pH ──── : 7.59 ── 7.43 ── 7.32 ── 7.27 ── 7.17 ── 7.39 ── 7.30 ── 7.18 ── 7.13 ── 7.4 ─── 7.2 ─── 7.26 FC ──── : 13.5 ── 8.5 ─── 5.5 ─── 5.5 ─── 3.0 ─── 13.5 ── 9.0 ─── 8.5 ─── 5.0 ─── 14.5 ── 13.0 ── 2.5 CC ──── : 1.0 ─── 0.5 ─── 0.5 ─── 0.5 ─── 1.5 ─── 0.5 ─── 2.0 ─── 1.5 ─── 2.0 ─── 0 ───── 1.0 ─── 2.0 TA ──── : ─────── 110 ─── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── CYA ─── : ─────── ─────── ─────── 2 0 ──── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ─────── ───────

Very interesting. Found it for $371.99 here at Inyo pools so they must believe it is appropriate for pool applications. It's not electronic which means simpler and more reliable, but also precludes the use of any kind of electronic dosing control.