ncspa
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Posts posted by ncspa
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http://www.troublefreepool.com/how-do-i-us...-pool-t102.html
>> Waterbear: 2) Shock with your preferred oxidizer (chlorine or MPS) and turn on the ozone if you are using it. Your bromine levels should now be above 10 ppm. Wait until they drop below 10 ppm before entering spa.
OK, so perhaps I'm having a conversation between myself and my imperfect memory...
Looks like this thread got turned in a different direction - I'd still like to know about the sanitizer dropping to zero issue......thanks.
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Hi all,
Things have been going great with the new Marquis installed in February - usally too busy tubbing to post!
Just back from an extended trip - 2 weeks of no tub use. Noticed upon return that my sanitizer levels had dropped to zero and that the water was just a little cloudy. I'm on a relatively recent water change (just 4 weeks ago, only about 3 soaks on this batch of water), so I'd like to avoid a water change if possible.
So, I'm wondering if it's okay to simply shock it to get the sanitizer levels back up (which, fyi, I've done already, and the bromine levels bounced up to about 5 right away). Or, does that drop in sanitizer indicate bacteria have colonized passed the point that I can handle.
By way of background - I have a ~350gal tub, use the floating frog system (bromine and minerals), and have an inline ozonator.
Thanks for the advice...
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Much less work than you might gather. I've had mine for ~3months...learning curve resulted in extra effort at first, but very easy now. I use the frog floater (bromine). I felt compelled to check a lot at first. Now, I add some shock 2X per week and check my water chemistry weekly. That's it. In fact, there's a tendency to overdo at first if you're not careful. Good water balanced the right way initially will stay that way with fairly little work.
Good luck...
hi,we are close to buying our first spa and reading several of the posts on water chemistry has gotten me worried. i want to do this right so can someone please tell me like it really is, how much work do i need to do (how frequently is the big questions) to maintain the spa chemistry? the problem is that i travel a fair bit and i'm not sure my wife will want to do daily maintainence on the chems. i just need to set myself and family with realistic expectations regarding the effort needed to make a spa enjoyable (spa ick doesnt sound like find....) thank you for your help!
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Any Marquis people know if my Epic will be coming with a GFCI subpanel? My dealer (did just swimming pools until a month ago -- just became a Marquis dealer) seemed to think I'd have to buy one. I thought another Marquis dealer told me it came with a subpanel. Any clue?
I had to purchase my own for my Marquis Reward. Best wishes!
P.S. Still love it as much as the day I bought it!
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I have been struggling with my desire to provide information that may be helpful to people, but not wanting to be personally attacked so I left this forum for a time to sort that out. I thank everyone who has been supportive (including the "thank you" thread I read) and I believe I can contribute again to this forum, but I will only provide information and not give advice.
Welcome back - glad to have you. I've been doing too much soaking to do much posting, but I look forward to more interesting discussions.
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I have a next door neighbor whose house is downhill from ours. The neighbor is afraid our spa will start leaking and kill all her plants with the "water full of chemicals".
Actually, you might reasonably point out that rainwater carries more potentially damaging toxins (including low pH) than anything that will come from your tub. Worth remembering.
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hi - just put money down on a down east spa at one of those expo shows ... did not know about this forum and now feeling uneasy about the decision after reading all comments (wish i would have known about this site) anyway, is it the marketing scam that is objectionable or the spa itself? the spa seemed great and had a lot of features we liked. would appreciate feedback.
thanks
Hope it works for you. I just about did the same (had my money ready for a Down East Exeter), but was rescued by this site just in time! I ended up going with a Marquis and we love it (was about 1.5K more).
I think you'll find the following, but see what others say:
1. Many of the complaints with Master have to do with sales tactics rather than quality (of course you've figured that Down East is a Master brand).
2. That said, I don't find that many put Master in the same category with 'top tier' brands such as HS, Marquis, Sundance, Jacuzzi, D1, etc.
3. One of the big issues with these tubs is insulation, and that seems to be the most common complaint. In fact, you'll find others that write in reporting that they're happy with their tubs (check out BODark for one). But, Master doesn't seem to have 'mastered' (sorry!) the isonine insulation business. You'll get some debate about this, but most folks agree that full foam is the way to go, and no one (except, from what I've read, Arctic - maybe a few others?) does the partial foam well.
So, if it turns out that insulation is your major issue (causing high electric bills, which is what you'll find here), you may be able to do some supplemental insulating. See other posts in the forum for ideas on how to do this.
Good luck - hope that it all turns out great for you.
thanks for the reply ... what marquis did you end up with?
Marquis Reward. It's been fantastic so far.....
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hi - just put money down on a down east spa at one of those expo shows ... did not know about this forum and now feeling uneasy about the decision after reading all comments (wish i would have known about this site) anyway, is it the marketing scam that is objectionable or the spa itself? the spa seemed great and had a lot of features we liked. would appreciate feedback.
thanks
Hope it works for you. I just about did the same (had my money ready for a Down East Exeter), but was rescued by this site just in time! I ended up going with a Marquis and we love it (was about 1.5K more).
I think you'll find the following, but see what others say:
1. Many of the complaints with Master have to do with sales tactics rather than quality (of course you've figured that Down East is a Master brand).
2. That said, I don't find that many put Master in the same category with 'top tier' brands such as HS, Marquis, Sundance, Jacuzzi, D1, etc.
3. One of the big issues with these tubs is insulation, and that seems to be the most common complaint. In fact, you'll find others that write in reporting that they're happy with their tubs (check out BODark for one). But, Master doesn't seem to have 'mastered' (sorry!) the isonine insulation business. You'll get some debate about this, but most folks agree that full foam is the way to go, and no one (except, from what I've read, Arctic - maybe a few others?) does the partial foam well.
So, if it turns out that insulation is your major issue (causing high electric bills, which is what you'll find here), you may be able to do some supplemental insulating. See other posts in the forum for ideas on how to do this.
Good luck - hope that it all turns out great for you.
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Thanks for the link - I'd been following that thread but hadn't gotten back to it.
One thing I'll add (for anyone that's in a similar situation) - using unfiltered light when interpreting the Taylor kits is really important. I'd been doing my testing mostly at night after work, and apparently the artificial indoor lighting in my kitchen has been making the readings appear slightly higher than they are, even with a white background. I tried testing in natural light this weekend and found my readings slightly lower. Same problem remains (TA at ~40-50) with high pH, but it's more like 7.8-7.9 than 8.0+ (which I thought was where I was).
Keep me posted on your issues. Sounds like we use the tub quite a bit more (usually everyday) than you, so outgassing is a big problem for us - definitely raises the pH, but doesn't seem to take the alkalinity with it. Anyway, here's hoping we both get it solved!
At this point in my hot tub endeavor (only 6 months in), I don't have plans to remedy what I am doing (I want to use as few chemicals as possible). I realize things are not in the ideal range, but I have come to trust Chem Geek's advice. If I am interpreting his posts correctly, what I am doing is not really that big of a problem...it is not perfect, but also not so far out of whack that I have to worry about developing problems. I test the water about once a week, and since we don’t use the spa that much it seems to stay fairly steady. If our usage ever increases, I will then have to be more diligent with my testing and treating. So, right now, I’m not overly concerned.
In fact, I just tested my water today:
TA = 40
pH = 7.6
Br = 4.0
I did nothing...when the TA hits 30; I'll add baking soda to get it up to 60. Usually, baking soda is the only chemical I add, after my initial balancing of my fill water, for the life of that fill (with the exception of the bromine floater). So, only adding baking soda about once a month for the 3 - 4 month fill seems fairly safe to me.
Good luck with your situation. If you get it where you want it, it will be nice to hear how you made that happen.
Interesting - I'll keep you posted.
Surely you also shock? I have an ozonator, so I keep my bromine much lower (1-2ppm). I try to shock twice per week with about 2oz of MPS. That temporarily raises the bromine, but is necessary to rid the water of the debris from bacteria that the sanitizer has killed.
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My water tends to keep a high pH...usually around 7.8. At the advice posted in this forum, I have kept my TA low...usually around 40 - 60. I don't increase the TA until it reaches 30. I am thinking this may be due to the fact we don't use the spa as frequently as we did when we first got it, because the water chemistry was different the first 2 months after we got the spa. Now, I am dealing with this low TA and high pH issue.
Here is a link to a discussion on this topic. Maybe it will help.
Thanks for the link - I'd been following that thread but hadn't gotten back to it.
One thing I'll add (for anyone that's in a similar situation) - using unfiltered light when interpreting the Taylor kits is really important. I'd been doing my testing mostly at night after work, and apparently the artificial indoor lighting in my kitchen has been making the readings appear slightly higher than they are, even with a white background. I tried testing in natural light this weekend and found my readings slightly lower. Same problem remains (TA at ~40-50) with high pH, but it's more like 7.8-7.9 than 8.0+ (which I thought was where I was).
Keep me posted on your issues. Sounds like we use the tub quite a bit more (usually everyday) than you, so outgassing is a big problem for us - definitely raises the pH, but doesn't seem to take the alkalinity with it. Anyway, here's hoping we both get it solved!
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I re-read your 1st note. To start with, pH Up (Sodium Carbonate) is NOT used to bring alkalinity up. It's primary effect is on pH. Sodium BIcarbonate (baking soda, 40 cents a pound at the grocery store) is used to bring Alkalinity up. This could be a big part of the issue, sorry I missed it before. I'd add the baking soda to get the alkalinity back up and if the pH needs to come down, bring it down with acid. The acid will likely bring the Alkalinity back down some, but you should start making progress.
Also, what are you using as a sanitizer? With Chlorine, I target a little lower pH for more effectives sanitization.
Chris W
Look again my friend. pH up is indeed sodium bicarbonate (otherwise known as Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate = same thing). Anyway, that's what I use.
Thanks for taking a closer look, but the problem remains! Actually, found today that the pH had dropped to 7.6 using the acid (hurrah!) but my TA was down to 40 (bummer). May just leave it that way awhile and see what happens.
Oops - my apologies! I was checking my bottle of "pH / Alkalinity Up". In any event, it has been the baking soda that I've been using again. Thanks again for the input
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I re-read your 1st note. To start with, pH Up (Sodium Carbonate) is NOT used to bring alkalinity up. It's primary effect is on pH. Sodium BIcarbonate (baking soda, 40 cents a pound at the grocery store) is used to bring Alkalinity up. This could be a big part of the issue, sorry I missed it before. I'd add the baking soda to get the alkalinity back up and if the pH needs to come down, bring it down with acid. The acid will likely bring the Alkalinity back down some, but you should start making progress.
Also, what are you using as a sanitizer? With Chlorine, I target a little lower pH for more effectives sanitization.
Chris W
Look again my friend. pH up is indeed sodium bicarbonate (otherwise known as Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate = same thing). Anyway, that's what I use.
Thanks for taking a closer look, but the problem remains! Actually, found today that the pH had dropped to 7.6 using the acid (hurrah!) but my TA was down to 40 (bummer). May just leave it that way awhile and see what happens.
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I'm a newbie and have really benefited from this forum. In particular, I really appreciate the time that Richard (Chem Geek) has taken to answer questions and provide solutions. Clearly, the guy knows his stuff, and his responses are detailed and thoughtful. Further, I know that I'm not the only one that's benefited.
So, I hope you'll all join me in thanking Richard for his time and knowledge. Maybe he'll reconsider and come back.
Cheers.
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Watersentinel
In an earlier post, you wrote “I've been helping them privately since they are afraid to speak out against you in the forum. Remember that I was brought here by a customer who followed your bleach advice.”
I am a new spa owner and have had problems with water chemistry. That is why I sought help on the web. I for one would like to know the details of the problems that these people were having and what you advised them to do to solve the problem. You could post the details anonymously so that the person couldn’t be identified. That way I can learn from their troubles and your solution.
The person you want to respond is chem geek - hopefully he'll come back. You'll also get good advice from waterbear and others. I'd be weary of water sentinel. I, for one, don't buy the "people were emailing me" nonsense. Look back at Richard's (aka Chem Geek) posts and you'll find a knowledgeable guy that's helped a bunch of folks without trying to sell product or push an agenda. Let the forum know what your problems are - you'll likely get good advice.
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By chance do you have high calcium in your water? It has been my experience that in water with high calcium, the Alk has to be quite low before the pH starts reacting "normally" when making adjustments.
Another possiblity is that the level of aeration in your spa is driving the pH up. Are you leaving the air controls open all the time? You might try keeping the air controls closed all of the time except when you are using the tub.
Chris W
No - in fact, my calcium is a little on the low side. Air is not controlled with this tub - some comes in with the jets automatically, but not much. Otherwise no air valves.
Thanks - other thoughts?
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A bit back I wrote in about a frustrating pH vs. TA issue I've been having. In a nutshell, my TA is low (about 50) and my pH is high (about 8) [if it's relevant, this is a brand new Marquis Reward that has been up and running for a few weeks now. Fiberglass shell, etc. so no grout issues. Ozonator installed. Also no water quality issues in the area, city water, etc. etc.]. Also, all tests are done with a Taylor 2105
So, I tried to shoot my TA way up so that I could bring the pH down with small additions of acid. I used pH up (baking soda) to bring the TA to about 85. Then, I slowly added dry acid, about .5 oz at a time over several days. Of course, TA began to drop but pH hung right in there! So, I now have TA back to about 50 and pH still about 8.0.
My question is - should I leave well enough alone? Seems fairly stable at this point. Is 50 low enough and/or 8.0 high enough to be of concern?
For what it's worth, no help locally. Pool store tells me to bring up TA then deal with pH, which I did. My dealer, unfortunately, just uses the test strips and he tells me things are fine (of course, the strip looks like 7.8, or maybe 7.6 - hell, who can tell?!!) - but, in fact, Taylor kit is telling me 8.0. Great dealer otherwise - disappointing that he uses the strips.
Sure appreciate the help from those of you in the know.
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To dlcz - many thanks for that information! That's exactly the kind of response I was looking for. So, in a nutshell would it be correct to say that 1) at temps in a spa, bromate would not be stable enough to hang around very long, and 2) there's no strong evidence that bromate is, in-and-of itself a carcinogen? Ignoring the chlorine issue, it sounds like you wouldn't recommend against an ozonator in a bromine spa? Please confirm, and thanks very much again.
The answer to 1) is "Yes" if and only if ozone is applied "in moderation". Meaning ORP / redox is used to control the ozone dose to what is necessary to maintain kill (>500 mV) but not infinite kill (>700 mV).
As to 2) I would recommend ozone in water with high bromides, even with high bromate formation. Bromate compounds in high concentrations are used to dye hair. If a lot of "oral ***" is performed underwater, might be an issue...
Hmm - so (in response to 1): how would one tell if the ozone is being applied in moderation? My ozonator is inline. It is not driven by a 25/7 pump as in other system, but instead comes on only during filter cycles (2 hours, 2 X day).
In response to 2: Why would you recommend it even with high bromate formation? And, more importantly, how can I go about encouraging lots of oral *** in the tub
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To dlcz - many thanks for that information! That's exactly the kind of response I was looking for. So, in a nutshell would it be correct to say that 1) at temps in a spa, bromate would not be stable enough to hang around very long, and 2) there's no strong evidence that bromate is, in-and-of itself a carcinogen? Ignoring the chlorine issue, it sounds like you wouldn't recommend against an ozonator in a bromine spa? Please confirm, and thanks very much again.
To chemgeek - I'd think twice about letting the abrasive comments of one user drive you away. I've read through many, many links (including my own) where you've been a tremendous help to people. I've never considered your advice biased or overbearing, and I can tell that you have no agenda other than providing good information. I suspect others will write in to agree, and I'm hopeful that you'll hang around - I'm looking forward to more good advice!
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Richard - thanks, this is great. I'll have to take some time and sort through these references before I respond.
I have a good friend who works at the EPA and is also a pool owner....I've put some feelers in there and I'll see if they have any additional resources.
Others with experience or opinions?
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So, we all know that carcinogens are all around us, and it's certainly easy to get carried away with concern about potential cancer-causing foods, airborn particles, etc. However, we'd all agree that if we can avoid them it makes sense to do so. Far better to focus on the things that we can really control, and not to get neurotic about those we can't. So, what about the issues with sanitizing chemicals, particularly chlorine vs. bromine - where do these fit in?
As a research scientist, I'm interested in actual data (rather than suppositions) and what they might tell us about relative risks. Problem is, there doesn't seem to be much out there. However, we do have good, resourceful folks on this forum, so I'm asking you all to share your own knowledge, and contribute whatever you can. Here's my contribution:
1. Bromine may well be converted to bromate with the use of an ozonator. Bromate is listed as a carcinogen when ingested, but also apparently has mutagenic properties when absorbed through the skin.
2. Inhalation of chloramines is considered carcinogenic.
I use bromine with an ozonator and I'm having a hard time weighing the risks. In reality, how much bromate is actually produced? Is it stable enough to pose a problem?
If I knew for sure that it was an issue, I'd simply disconnect the ozonator. However, ozonators allow you to use less bromine, which may be a benefit in itself. Both are concerns, because we use the tub everyday, and my children (7 and 4) use it frequently. Switching to chlorine is also an option, but doesn't necessarily seem safer. Besides, right now bromine is working well for us, and this doesn't seem like a sufficient argument for making the switch - unless there is a real, quantifiable decrease in risk.
So, tell me what you know. Does anyone have good data related to bromate production and risk in pools and hot tubs? What about chlorine? If not, maybe we could find a good public health chemist to weigh in. Many thanks for your contributions.
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Nc you said that at 3oz of mps your bromine went through the roof. How high did it go? You could try adding 1oz and testing and continue adding 1oz until you reach the desired bromine level. If 1 ounce increments are too much then try 1/2 ounce at a time. 5-10ppm is the suggested range for a shock.
Roughly speaking, 1 teaspoon of MPS in 350 gallons is equivalent to 1 ppm FC so would activate about 2 ppm Bromine. Of course, if there are other things in the water to oxidize, then more MPS would be needed.
3 ounces weight of MPS in 350 gallons would be equivalent to around 13 ppm FC so would activate about 26 ppm Bromine.
Ahh....that's what I was looking for! Thanks.
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Just experiment to see how much mps you need.
You just hit the question right there! How do you figure how much mps you need? I guess that's the way I should have stated this from the beginning, but that's what I'm after.
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I use MPS to shock about twice per week (using tub 1-2 times per day). The container tells me to use 3oz for my 350-gal. tub. However, that seems to take my bromine sky high. If the water remains clear, is there any reason I couldn't just use less (say 1 or 2 oz)? Is there an easy way to gauge the correct frequency and amount of shock?
Shocking your spa with mps or dichlor is going to do the same thing. Both are reactivating the bromine in your spa which is why your bromine goes sky high. Yes, you can add less. The only thing you are doing by adding mps or dichlor to a bromine spa is quickly raising the bromine level. If your bromine dispenser is not keeping up with the demands to maintain 3-5 ppm bromine or there was heavy use of the spa, then add just enough mps to get to that level. When shocking add a little at a time. You can't take it out once it's in there. Add it in increments until you reach the 5-10 ppm range.
Actually, I try to keep the bromine closer to 1-2ppm - running an ozonator, that is apparently sufficient. My floater does a great job of keeping it at that level. I continue to use the shock, however, to eliminate the bacteria that the sanitizer has killed. I simply want to make sure I'm accomplishing that. I assume that cloudy water would indicate that not enough is being used....
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I use MPS to shock about twice per week (using tub 1-2 times per day). The container tells me to use 3oz for my 350-gal. tub. However, that seems to take my bromine sky high. If the water remains clear, is there any reason I couldn't just use less (say 1 or 2 oz)? Is there an easy way to gauge the correct frequency and amount of shock?
When Sanitizer Drops To Zero
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
That's what I was looking for....thanks! Everything looks good other than a bit cloudy. Might try a clarifier, but it probably doesn't matter much.
cheers....