Vermonter
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Posts posted by Vermonter
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Tony,
The TA is really there just for two reasons. One is to provide a pH buffer, especially against the pH getting too low from acidic sources. So if you don't have acidic sources (e.g. Dichlor, Trichlor, MPS, dry acid), then that's not a problem. At the other end, adding basic sources (hypochlorite chlorine such as bleach) will temporarily make the pH rise more when the TA is low so that can potentially lead to scaling if it went really high. For example, with a TA of 40 and CYA of 30, then adding enough bleach to raise the FC by 4 ppm would raise the pH from 7.5 to 7.94. Using 50 ppm Borates prevents this latter problem (the pH in my example would only rise to 7.6). So if you pH isn't swinging too wildly, then a low TA isn't a problem -- especially if you have Borates and use bleach, then I wouldn't worry.
As for the second reason, that's the saturation index so if it doesn't get too negative you're OK. Having a higher CH level lets you get away with a lower TA level, but just keep in mind that the CYA contributes about 1/3rd of its value to TA so with 30 ppm CYA and a TA of 40 this is really a carbonate alkalinity of 30. The Pool Calculator will figure this all out for you automatically if you put in the correct numbers. Also keep in mind that the TA test is +/- 10 ppm in accuracy.
My rule-of-thumb to never go below 50 ppm is mostly for safety reasons. If someone accidentally dumped some acid into the spa, then with too low a TA the pH could get very low and cause damage. Bottom line, it's your spa so if you find the pH isn't swinging too wildly and that the saturation index is close to zero or only somewhat negative (not below -0.3, for example) then you're fine. With your numbers, a TA of 50 is OK and 40 gets the saturation index to around -0.4 so I wouldn't stay in that situation long-term. It sounds like your pH swings so it's probably OK. If you had the water touching plaster/grout, then I'd be a little more concerned, but for general corrosion of metal and other parts, it's mostly pH that is an issue and not the saturation index. Remember that there are some people who run without added CH and some spas that use phosphate buffers that presumably don't get damaged -- the relationship between metal corrosion and saturation index is not a clear one. I think HHH mentioned pump seals as potentially being an issue, but except for dissolve of calcium carbonate in plaster/grout, it's low pH that is the primary factor in corrosion. Nitro's advice to be near a saturation index of 0 or slightly below is mostly just for safety to be sure.
Richard
Okay, this all makes sense to me, except for one little bit... I use Bromine, and occasionally (very occasionally) shock with bleach, but mostly with MPS, so I really have no idea what my CYA level is... I have this test available with my kit, should I run it just to find out? Or should it be essentially at zero? And if so, how does this affect where my numbers should be? This is something that has been bothering me for a bit now, so I'm glad I have a chance to bring it up... once again, thanks for the help!
T.
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Okay, kind of related, but since the topic seems to be basically closed, I don't feel as if I'm hijacking here.
I tend to find that my TA around 50 keeps my pH fairly stable throughout the week (I try to keep it around 7.5 to 7.8)... however, when I do go to readjust the following week, my TA has dropped to around 40, very occasionally even lower... how much of a concern should this be? When I enter the data into the "Pool Calculator" my calcite saturation index is still within the desired range (albeit close to the lower limit)... but then I bring it back up, wait a week, and repeat. My CH is 200, btw, in case that figures in somehow.
I'm really just responding to the fact that Richard said "but not below 50" in the post above, so I'm just checking here... thanks in advance for the input.
Tony
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Hey folks,
I'm not really certain that this involves Hot Tub Water Chemistry, however I'm certain chemicals will be involved in one form or another.
Does anyone have any suggestions for cleaning our little friend, the Scum Ball? Obviously, soaps or detergents are out... I'm thinking it has to be something with de-greasing properties, preferably with household items (as opposed to ordering something online). Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks!
Tony
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I just did it with the filters still in. My water wasn't very clean and I didn't want to risk it. It seemed to work fine - the filter looks good and my new fill of water seems extra clean and sparkly - not sure if that's the reason, but I'm glad I refilled and tried the product.
Well, I think as long as your filters look good, that is the main concern. Maybe your tub didn't need it in the end? When I used it, I didn't get nearly as much gook as I'd heard I was going to get- I can imagine if the tub was really nasty, the filters would get pretty bad.
Either way, I'm glad it worked out for you!
Tony
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I recently ordered a product called "Spa Flush" - which is supposed to breakdown microfilm and scale and stuff inside the pipes. You use it right before you drain and refill. The directions say to remove the filter when you use, but my manual says to never run the pump without a filter in place (with many exclamation points). Has anyone used this product before? Did you remove or not remove the filter?
Thanks
I'm not sure about your tub in particular, but I have run the same (or equivalent) product without the filters, and had no problems. I think Dan is right- as long as there's nothing in the tub to get sucked into the lines, I can't see any reason it should harm the tub.
Tony
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This is specifically for Hillybilly Hot Tub, but anyone else can feel free to chime in!
I, too, have a DelOzone SpaEclipse generator, which has been out since I bought the hot tub, used, about a year ago. I could see through the little window that the chip was burned out, so I finally got around to ordering a new one, and guess what? It doesn't work. I think the generator itself is on the fritz, and rather than fuss around with it, I think I'm going to take your suggestion and look into buying a Balboa generator.
My question is, what model do I want, to replace the SpaEclipse? One that fits into the slot where the old one came out of would be great, but I'm not sure if that's something that can happen or not. I want a CD model, I think (I do, don't I?).... any suggestions would be great. Thanks!
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When the sanitizer reading becomes in the ok range for chlorine. Mps you can safely use the tub 15 minutes after applying.
What about when you add "ph up" or "ph down"? How long do you have to wait to soak?
Thanks!
Generally a 1/2 hour to be safe, as long as the pH and TA aren't way out of acceptable ranges after adding these products.
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Hi,
I'm finding myself having to check my water balance a lot - both when I use dichlor and when I use bleach. I haven't actually had much of a problem with Ph rise from the bleach, but I do have a lot of Ph drop when I use dichlor. Has anyone used a product like: "Control the PH" - Active ingredient: phosphate buffer (as KH2PO4/K2HPO4). It's supposed to help Ph stay constant when you add at fill. Any thoughts?
Thanks
I used one of these products on my last fill, and it caused all the Ca to precipitate out of soution. Had to refill my tub and clean the hell outta my filters (acid soak and all)... so, personally, I can't say that I recommend it.
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Spa Guard Enhanced Shock is actually a pretty good product. It is half dichlor and half MPS. Some use it after soaking, others as a weekly shock. Your purchase certainly will not go to waste.
Allright then, I'll give it a go. Thanks!
Tony
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Hey all... well, I accidentally picked up this product the other day thinking (assuming?) it was MPS... it is not. It is 58.2% Sodium dichloro-s-triazinetrione, and 41.8% "other ingredients." Reading the back of the container (which of course, I do once I'm home and ready to use the stuff), it says it "enhances water comfort and stabilizes pH. Special ingredients aid the filter in removing small suspended particles to further enhance water clarity." I'm not real fond or trusting of "wonder treatments," especially after my last run-in with pH stabilizer, which precipitated all of my Ca. My question is, basically, is anyone familiar with this product? Should I trust it or just bring it back for something else, and just use plain bleach to shock until then? Thanks!!
Tony
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For me, living in Vermont, a change in the winter isn't really practical, so I try to get one in in November and one as early as possible in the spring (usually late March or early April); other than that, once every 3 month-ish, or when foaming is a consistent problem, which ever comes first.
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Tony,
Your required MPS usage makes sense assuming your hot tub is around 350 gallons because it takes around 7 ppm FC per person-hour of soaking to oxidize the ammonia/urea from sweat/urine. 40 minutes * 2 people = 1.33 person-hour so a demand of 9 ppm FC so a little over 2 tablespoons or one ounce volume (1.35 ounces weight) of MPS. For whatever reason, you need even more than that (about double the dose).
2 ounces volume of MPS in 350 gallons over one week starting at a pH of 7.8 and TA of 70 would result in a pH of 6.9 and TA of 60 so you've probably got some pH rise from aeration to end up at a pH of 7.2. I think that if you use a higher TA level then you can find a balance between the MPS and outgassing of carbon dioxide so that the pH remains pretty stable. Then you'll only need to add baking soda as the TA goes down each week.
I can't explain the larger 1-week-sized drop from one dose.
Richard
Hmm, well perhaps I've just been over-doing it with the MPS, although I'm fairly certain I've tried using 1 oz doses and still ended with the stinky water, but that could have been a result of something else (not enough Bromine being released from the feeder, for example). I'd love to be able to cut my MPS use in half, so perhaps I'll give it a go and do a little experimenting (which, like I said, always gets me in trouble, but what the hell). Yes, the tub is 350 gallons by the way. And I've been using 2 oz by weight, so perhaps I'll just cut it to 1.35 oz and start from there.
Thanks again Richard.
Tony
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If you added 1 tablespoon of MPS in 350 gallons which is roughly equivalent in oxidizing power to 4 ppm FC, this would only lower the pH from 7.5 to 7.46 (at a TA of 100 ppm) so is not a big deal at all. I think it would be just fine to add it with the circulation pump running but the aeration jets off. Your pH will likely rise on its own from normal outgassing or from when you next use the spa anyway. Of course, this analysis depends entirely on how much MPS you use.
Richard
For whatever reason, I use A LOT of MPS... 2 oz. after every use, typically 2 people for 40 minutes each session, sometimes more, sometimes less. I've tried skipping a dose, and it almost alway comes back to bite me in the bum (cloudy, smelly water), so I figure better safe than sorry.
Probably largely due to this, my pH actually tends to drop throughout the week; I have been starting the week with a pH of 7.8 and TA of around 70, and by the next week I'm usually at pH of 7.2 and TA of 50. Right now (today being my chemistry day
), I'm actually starting the week off with a pH of 7.5 and TA of 100. We'll see how it goes.Interestingly, it's been used once in the last 2 weeks (it's just too hot!), and got the usual 2 oz. dose on that day, and yet the pH and TA still dropped, although it seems they dropped the same amount they usually drop in a one week period over two weeks.
Tony
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Well, I like your logic... That's pretty much what I would think, too. Thanks!
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I have very much the same situation... less jets, but I'm using Bromine and have to shock after every use or my water gets cloudy after 2 days. (I do have a broken ozonator, which you've just convinced me to fix
) I find that my pH and TA drop every week, pH from around 7.8 to 7.4 and TA from 80-ish to 50-ish. (In 350 gallons) I just throw in 2 or 3 TB of baking soda and away I go! I've pretty much just attributed it to the large quantities of MPS, but I suppose it could be the Br itself adding or even causing the problem. Hmmmm. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.Tony
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So now you guys have me thinking about aeration... well, sort of. This is (probably) the last question on the topic, so here goes: when shocking a spa, specifically with MPS, is it more effective to do so with the aeration on, off, or does it make no difference? I'm talking about the hour after you add it when the cover is off for oxidization. Thanks in advance (once again)
Tony
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Hmm, I'll give it a go... perhaps my pre-filter has had it's last go- previously I've had no problems with metals in the water after going through the pre-filter, but all good things must come to an end.
I'll let you know if it works or not.
Thanks,
Tony
Well, I tested for CH the regular way first, and for whatever reason, this time it registered. (It's at 130 PPM, btw... I'm not touching it!) The only changes since testing yesterday were a 2 oz. MPS treatment and 1 oz. of Clarifier/Stain and Scale preventer. Perhaps the later did the trick? Well, none-the-less, everything seems fine.
Tony
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Hmm, I'll give it a go... perhaps my pre-filter has had it's last go- previously I've had no problems with metals in the water after going through the pre-filter, but all good things must come to an end.
I'll let you know if it works or not.
Thanks,
Tony
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Well, I've Swirl Away-ed, drained, refilled, balanced and all that jazz... I added (I think) 7 oz. of Hardness Increaser to try and get the CH to around 100... went away for the weekend and checked it with my drop based kit when I returned... the Hardness Indicator, by the way, is Isopropanol 24% w/w and Triethanolamine 77% w/w. According to the kit, my hardness was back to "0" (the sample didn't stay red when I added 5 drops). I was just about to dump a couple more ounces of Hardness Increaser when I decided to double check it with my strips... the strips registered hardness at 100 PPM.
So, my question is, is there something which can interfere with the Hardness Indicator that would allow for the false results? I checked my filters, by the way, and there was no residue like the last time. Should I just trust the strips? What gives?
Tony
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Hey, thanks for the advice... I figured out the air control bit (I'm not sure why, but I had thought that turning those knobs all the way down also turned the jets off... good to know it's just the air. Duh!) It doesn't look like that much came out with the Swirl Away, which I suppose is a good thing, except that I was counting on it to fix my rH nF error message (the "no flow" thing)... oh well. Maybe it removed more than I could tell.
I did take a Shop Vac to all the jets, first blowing the water out and then sucking up the remainder. Some more residue definitely came out with this technique, and I feel pretty confident I got as much water out as is humanly possible. So, I guess it's as successful as can be.
I will be looking for your truck... what's it say on it?
Tony
As an afterthought, wouldn't it make sense that the heater would heat more efficiently if the aeration were turned off? Rather than heating a air/water mix (cold air/warm water), it would just be heating warm water... what do you think?
T.
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Hey, thanks for the advice... I figured out the air control bit (I'm not sure why, but I had thought that turning those knobs all the way down also turned the jets off... good to know it's just the air. Duh!) It doesn't look like that much came out with the Swirl Away, which I suppose is a good thing, except that I was counting on it to fix my rH nF error message (the "no flow" thing)... oh well. Maybe it removed more than I could tell.
I did take a Shop Vac to all the jets, first blowing the water out and then sucking up the remainder. Some more residue definitely came out with this technique, and I feel pretty confident I got as much water out as is humanly possible. So, I guess it's as successful as can be.
I will be looking for your truck... what's it say on it?
Tony
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So, I got my bottle of Swirl Away in the mail today, and there's a warning on the side, bold print, ALL CAPS, with exclamation point (!), saying DO NOT OPEN AIR CONTROLS WHILE CLEANING!
My question is two-fold:
1) What's going to happen if I do leave the air controls open while cleaning? Is my hot tub going to explode? With a warning like that, it makes one wonder. and
2) How, exactly, do I turn the air controls off? What precisely is meant by "air controls"? On my tub, I can either turn the circulation pump to low speed, high speed, or off, and I can turn what I call the "bubbler" (which I never use) either on or off. Now, there is definitely air being put into the water when I use the circulation pump, so if this is what it means, what can I do about it? It's either "on" or "off", not a lot of choice about air being mixed in with it or not. Thanks once again for the advice, in advance.
Tony
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Well, I'll be draining and refilling as soon as the Swirl Away arrives, which should be early next week. What a waste. Oh well. Thanks for the advice.
Tony
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I was afraid of that.... well, perhaps I'll buy some more Hardness Increaser, and give it one more go, but I'm pretty sure the stupid pH Stabilizer I used is going to prevent me from increasing it without refilling... damn it. Well, thanks again and as usual for the advice....
Tony
I agree with Richard. I would also suggest as a precaution to use swirl away before you drain. This way if there still is any of the scaling gunk left in the lines orjets or heater, it will help remove it. You may also want to try spa defender on refill as added precaution. (I have gone through this before!)
Okay, I have already ordered some Swirl Away (as per your previous advice), but what is this Spa Defender you speak of? And how important is it since I've already place my order?
Tony
Okay, never mind, I've Googled it and figured it out myself (should have thought of that in the first place, sorry for wasting your time!) But, I guess, the question still remains: since I have very soft water to begin with, and the mineral content of my water seems to be very low (or else the prefilter that came with my spa is working very well), how important is it? (say, on a scale of 1 to 10) Thanks again!
How To Clean A Scum Ball?
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
It's not so much that I think soap and/or detergent can't clean a Scum Ball, it's more my concern of ending up with soap in the hot tub, which is not a good thing. And considering it's the job of said device to absorb things, I worry it may be difficult to rinse the soap from it completely.
Tony