TinyBubbles
-
Posts
669 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by TinyBubbles
-
-
Keep in mind that all circulation pumps are not created equal. Some are very small. Artesian has switched to large circulation pumps. We have one and are thrilled with it.
-
Bromine. You leave a floater in the spa which will slowly deliver bromine to the spa while you are away.
-
I have to cast my vote for the bathing suits. You'd be suprised at how much soap residual is left in them. We purchased a new front loading washer and you have to use a special low suds soap. There is so much of the old stuff left in clothes that you get tons of suds at first. I ran my clothes through the new machine without adding any detergent and still got tons of bubbles the first time. When we have friends over in the tub it drives me insane. The bubbles get soooooo high. Of course if I have to weight the evil of bubbles or seeing my friends naked, I'll take the bubbles!
Be careful using too much foam control product. It's a great idea to put it in a spray bottle and just mist the bubbles. It's only going to break their surface tension, but the cause will still be in the water. -
My husband and I got our hot tub about 3 months ago, so we are still working on figuring out everything.
Recently, we have started to have a slight green tint to our water, and sometimes there is a not nice odor. The water is not cloudy--we can still see the bubble design on the bottom of the tub. Also, when we tested our water yesterday, the CYA level was as high as our testing strip would go. We found this very surprising because that has been at the "perfect" level previously.
Does anyone have any idea what might be going on? What can we do to fix these problems?
Thank you!!
If you've gone 3 months on your first water fill, then it's definately time for a water change. Your cya levels will rise every time that you add dichlor or any other stabilized chlorine to your spa. I won't get into the whole debate about wether that's a problem or not. That's like talking politics and religion, everyone will never agree on that one. Are you using dichlor to sanitize your spa or do you just shock with it? What is your maintenance routine? At this point, your water is getting old and it's saturated. If you've kept your water up until now, you've done really great for a new spa owner. Give us a little info. on your water care routine so that people can help more. BTW, green could be from metal in the water or low sanitizer levels.
-
I use scumballs. They are the same thing, just round instead of duck shaped. I love using them and they definately work. I squeeze mine out over the side of the tub everynight and like Tony said, rinse it periodically. Over time, it will go from floating high in the water to sinking, then you know it's time for a new one.
-
Congratulations. When you post the next time, start a new thread so that other people interested in a salt system will see it. They might not look under "grow up".
-
Good analogy about the grey water. The ammonia in our sweat and our dead skin cells feed so many organisms. That's why there is such a huge demand for oxidation in a spa. A pool can function with only a chlorine generator, but if you use one in a spa, you still have to add large amounts of an oxidizer. Bacteria from fecal matter may be the most common bacteria to cause digestive illnesses that could be introduced into swimming water, but they aren't what's clouding up your water and creating that smell. That's the problem with viruses, they can be in clear, fresh smelling water. It's probably safe to say that most people that contracted hot tub itch, did so in clear water. Hillbilly is correct that the things feeding off our waste products are responsible for cloudy, stinky water. For example, bacteria that breakdown sulfates thrive in warm water. It's the process of them consuming things in the water and the byproducts produced that are responsible for the smell. You are right that even clean individuals have some e.coli or other fecal contaminants on them. Fortunately for us spa users, most adults don't put their head under water, so we aren't getting it in our mouths. Transmission of gastroenteritus causing bacteria in a spa should be very low because of that reason. If I'm not showering immediately after getting out of the spa, I wash my hands with antibacterial soap. I don't want to grab a potato chip if some bug got on my finger. Keep in mind I said it could be algae or some other bacteria. I didn't mean to imply that it's the most common cause, but it does happen. We enjoy leaving our spa open on the weekends to enjoy the lights and water feature. I learned quickly that I have to keep my MPS or chlorine up during this time. I'm in the sunny south and people in colder climates may not encounter this problem. I know people here that use algaecide in their portable spas. Maybe it isn't common enough that I should have mentioned it.
-
Did your spa clear up?
Yep! Took about 3 days to really get the clarity back -- I put a new filter in and cleaned the heck out of the old one. I had bought it so I could rotate them anyway, just hadn't gotten around to putting it in!
Who is it, primarily, that likes to grow when sanitizer levels drop? E Coli? Something else? Just curious, but this is the second time sanitizer levels got low and within a couple of days the water went from crystal clear to funky looking and slightly swampy smelling, so whoever the little beasties are, they sure flourish when they get a chance.
I had the same thing happen in my spa with low sanitizer levels. It could be algae or something else that loves to feed on organics and waste in the water. We don't just use our spa after dark so it's often exposed to sunlight. An algae bloom can happen fast. Generally that smell means algae, but it could be from a bacteria. I doubt it's e. coli or anything else that's harmful, but you never know. E. coli and other nasty bugs would have to be introduced into your water. If they aren't there, they can't multiply. If you've ever set up a new aquarium you know that there is a nitrification process that happens in water. Even with nobody soaking in it, it turns cloudy and icky for several days and once it clears up you can introduce fish. There's a technical explanation for the whole process, but who really cares about that. When my water got nasty I had friends coming over to soak and I wanted it clear in a hurry. When it wasn't clearing up fast enough I added clarifier to the water and rinsed the filters every 30 minutes. I had clear water that night. The clarifier really seemed to help the filter trap the gunk. I just bought a new set of filters to rotate also. We use our spa alot and I could tell a big difference with the new filters. We might just get new ones every 6 months and toss the old ones. I'm glad you got your water cleared up. There's nothing like expecting to soak and opening your spa up to gunk.
-
I was about to reply to that thread, and it was deleted. What happened to it. Was it the theard that that one poster linked to that caused it to be deleted?
Just scroll down more. It's still here.
-
I haven't tried it, but I saw where someone said they keep milk jugs of water in their freezer and pop them in the spa to cool it down. We've been saving our containers and we'll try it out.
-
You should be able to shock with either dichlor or MPS. Chemically they will both be converted to bromine. It's really just a matter of personal preference. Technically, there are upper limits to the level of chlorine you should have in your spa before using it, but MPS does not have these limits. It's one of the reason it's so popular. You can shock and use it alot faster than with dichlor. Did your spa clear up?
-
Wow! Good eye hillbilly. I think you solved his problem. Never mix those chemicals. I think it's time for a drain and refill. Pick one sanitizer and then work with that. Thanks to hillbilly you should be well on your way to enjoying your spa in a healthy way.
-
I almost forgot to post this link. http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/foia/reviews/0...2006-01-27a.pdf. This is the 2006 info. for N2 from the epa.
Performing start up procedures on an unattended spa is different than having to maintain the same levels of chlorine with N2 that you would have to have to maintain without it. I use dichlor and if I leave my spa unattended long enough I'm going to need to shock it as well. My instructions with my chlorine start up kit said to shock as needed. My sister uses bromine and I asked her, same thing. She shocks as needed. The literature that I got with my N2 cartridge does state low chlorine, not no chlorine. Many people want to keep their chlorine useage at a minimum. One thing to question is wether or not MPS is better for you than chlorine. If you follow zodiac's instructions you are adding one chemical instead of another. I know chlorine and bromine have health implications. I don't know about MPS. That's definately something to investigate.
Thanks for your info. Tony. I certainly wouldn't want to have cloudy water every third day. Right now, I think you and I are using the exact same method. I want to try Mps daily dosing, but things are going so well that I'm hesitant. I wish you tested your MPS levels to see if possibly you just needed to use more MPS than what is suggested. Kinda like the vermonter dichlor method, add for levels not just by amounts. But, then again, why add 3tbs. of mps when you can get by with less chlorine, right? I think I'll have to look into MPS more before I decide if it's better to be stewing in that than chlorine.
-
One thing about TDS...It's not the AMOUNT of total dissolved solids that are a problem but the TYPE of things dissolved that are a problem. For example, you mentioned salt. Sodium and chloride ions are not a problem even at fairly high levels (if they were then salt water chlorine generators and bromine generators would not work!) yet if the dissolved solids include a lot of calcium, sulfates (from using MPS and pH decreaser) and/or cynurates (CYA and it's compuunds) THEN you might have water problems. TDS is, at best, a rough guide to overstabilization from usuintg stabilizec chlorine. If you look at the problems that are attributed to high TDS EVERY ONE OF THEM is caused by overstabilization. However, if you look at a salt system, which will have very high TDS to start with, it has NONE of the problems associated with high TDS!
I think you've just answered a question I had in another post regarding TDS. Cynurates from CYA and sulfates from MPS add to the problematic type of TDS. Any idea of how many ppm TDS from these?
I think this will answer alot of your questions. http://www.rhtubs.com/TDS.htm
-
.....Chris, I'm sorry but I don't feel comfortable hugging you until I know that your spa is properly sanitized. I don't want to catch anything that I could introduce into my spa.
Thanks, most people would be more worried about the color fading from their swimsuit after using my spa if they saw the CYA and FC levels I commonly run 
I'm just hoping that the Spa-pilot does for my tub what the Auto-pilot does for my pool
I can't wait to hear your experiences with the spa-pilot. What type of spa do you have? Do you have stainless steel escutcheons? I'm curious to see if the salt effects them in any way. You'll have to keep us up to date with your routine while using it. Is your unit the one that you take out of the tub while soaking and then pop back in when you get out? Thanks for being our guinea pig.
-
I'm on my laptop and my files are at work on my desktop. If someone wants to use the older study they can read that the kill times someone mentioned of 2 minutes is merely referring to AOAC requirements for chlorine controls. If you scroll down to page 6 you will see that the EPA finds complete kill times over 30 seconds to be unacceptable for a sanitizer. There were clearly problems with the original test which is why it was repeated in 06. The 06 studies has all of the data I referred to in my earlier post including all the results for the 30 second results. Let's prevent this thread from becoming a costco vs. dealer spa type thread. No need for the rudeness of bold or capitized text. Agendas can be left at the door.
Tony, since I've never tried the mps dosing that you have, could you tell me what you did? What level did you maintain your MPS at? Now that you are dosing with dichlor what level of fc are you maintaining? Your experience makes me leary of trying mps dosing. Your input is helpful.
Hillbilly, I think some people might be confused by the zodiac's directions for people choosing to dose with dichlor instead of shocking with it. In that case and that case only, it directs you to substitute dichlor for mps when you soak at a rate of 1tbs dichlor being equal to 3 tbs. mps. If you are using their low chlorine mps dosing, then you are only using dichlor to shock when needed. I have read and reread my N2 manual and can't find anywhere where it says to maintain normal levels of chlorine. If someone has the booklet, can you tell me what page it is on? I just purchased my cartridge last week, but perhaps it has an old booklet in it. From what I can tell, shocking when needed is standard practice regardless of your sanitizer. Bather loads and other factors are big variables.
-
I'm curious as to where you got this info. My understanding was the kill rate had to be achieved in a much longer period than 30 seconds (I think it was 20 minutes, though it may have been 2 minutes). Also, I've NEVER heard of any test results from N2.
If you can wait until Monday I will post it for you. They do have published paperwork where N2 has been tested by the EPA and the results. I believe the last time was in 06. It's broken down separately for the pool and spa systems. They also have published info. on frog too. It's all really very interesting. The info is from the EPA. They did the testing using chlorine as a control. I'm on the way out the door now, but I will get you info. Monday.
-
Hi Hillbilly. Obviously, everything that you said is correct. I find this forum interesting and enjoy taking part in it. I have tried to offer information and personal experiences as well as learn from others. I was very hurt to be bullied and attacked by waterbear. I can't imagine for the life of me why he felt I deserved that. I will not respond to such behavior in the future, but I truely felt the need to defend my honor. I apologize if I offended anyone in that process. Logically, I know to ignore that kind of behavior, but emotionally it's hard when you are blindsided by such hatred. Never the less, there are other people here who's feelings should be respected, despite the fact that mine were hurt.
Chris, I'm sorry but I don't feel comfortable hugging you until I know that your spa is properly sanitized. I don't want to catch anything that I could introduce into my spa.
-
Yes I really like my dealer he is alway chearful and happy to help me, I just don't want to be a pest with my millions of silly questions.
I don't plan on changing my maintainance program, I haven't even gone a full month yet. I do want to see how long I will be able to go using this program until the next change. You change closer to 2 months, does that mean you also have to change the mineral thing too, or do you just put it back in. Mine says it should be changed every 4 months but perhaps that figure is based on the expectation that you will only have to change the water every 4 months. Do they get used up with more spa usage or do they just run out after 4 months use.
Have you noticed whether your CYA level is high when your water begins to turn "thick" as you called it, or is this not a factor?
9 times a week for a hour each time, is that one person or 2 or does that matter. If my husband and I jump in for 30 minutes, would that count as 1 person hr or is it 2? If it's one person I could be adding my weekly shock with dichlor to soon.
Anyway I find this forum so facinating. Sure wish I knew about it years ago when I was having problems with the bromine tablets we used in our old spa.
SPA MOM
La La
Hi La La. Yes, my cya levelsdo increase until I do a drain and refill. It's not thick from cya, it's the total dissolved solids built up from adding sanitizer, shock, ph/alkalinity adjustments, sweat, dead skin, etc. Before this last water change I used bleach for awhile which has alot of salt in it and adds rapidly to the tds. I like to use fragrances as well, which also adds to the tds. Top all that off with having friends in the spa who come in with lotions, etc. on their skin.
I have been keeping my mineral cartridge for 4 months per the instructions. Your question about bather loads affecting the N2 cartridge is something I've been wondering about as well. I assume it doesn't, since they don't mention this, but I plan on talking to zodiac reps. about it.
As far as how often to drain, there are different schools of thought. Some people test for TDS and drain when it reaches 1500. There is a formula where you divide the total gallons of water in your spa by 3. Then divide that number by the average # of bathers per day. For me, this comes out to about 60 days.
I couldn't agree with you more about how fascinating this is. The one downside is that with everything I've learned, I'll never get in a public hot tub again. So much for soaking after a long day on the slopes.
-
I learned some fascinating info. from the epa. To be a registered epa sanitizer you must be able to kill 99.9999% of a bacteria, virus, etc. in under 30 seconds. Kill 99.9998% in under 30 seconds, you don't pass. Kill 99.9999% in 31 seconds, you don't pass. N2 for example had 2 water samples where only 99.9917% were killed in the allowed 30 seconds. Because of that, they aren't registered as a sanitizer, only a disinfectant. They did reach 99.9999% killed in under a minute for all samples tested. I have an N2 in my spa but I really haven't been trusting it that much. I kind of had it there as a back up. That information gives me alot more confidence in it and I think on my next fill I'm going to try using it with MPS daily dosing and dichlor shocking. I think it was Hillbilly that said we should learn something new every day. That's one good thing about this forum. We read things and then dive in deeper to get more info. The one big concern I still have is knowing when the cartridge is at the end up it's usefullness. I know they say to replace in 4 months, but I'd like to know how they came to that conclusion. I guess that's something to talk to Zodiac about.
-
I didn't mean to put any insults in my post. I'm betting that most hot tub dealers are not chemists and can't balance a chemical equation, that's not an insult but a speculation. And I'm not angry but just sorta amused that posts supporting dichlor and ignoring cya seem so conclusive. I honestly don't think it's a huge problem but to those that are really concerned that their water be the safest and best that it can be and are using chlorine I think that being aware of cya is reasonable. I haven't found any information showing that cya is a non-issue. I have found information showing that it is. I would like to see any information showing that sanitation does not decrease with increased cya use. Or even some federal or state agencies that have adopted the stance that cya is a non-issue. I do find a lot of states require pools to not be over 100ppm cya. This in itself says there is a reason for that.
Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry if I saw insults were none were intended. Many of the people I deal with have become friends over the years, not just business acquaintances. I'm proud to know them on both levels, so was hurt when I thought it was an insult. Again, sorry. I will admit that "non-issue" could be too strong, but the whole "sky is falling" approach is way to drastic as well. Everything I've found does state that the effectiveness of chlorine does go down with high cya levels. Most tests involving chlorine are at .5 fc with 99.99% kill in under 30 seconds. This won't happen with high cya levels which is why spas are supposed to be maintained at 2-5 ppm fc. If I was using dichlor alone, there is no way I'd accept .5 fc. I do not believe that would be safe. I had proof of this when using bleach. Take any bias I have out of the bleach issue. For me, I could not maintain fc with bleach so I ended up with cloudy, smelly water. I'm sure if I used only dichlor and ran .5 fc I would end up with roughly the same situation. I haven't ran into any problems with dichlor if I keep my fc levels up and I don't expect to. The only other point that I'd make is that when getting info. from the cdc and epa it's important to remember they are dealing with public health. The majority of us would have our kitchens shut down if the health inspector came in. That's not to say we aren't clean. We prepare meals and make a plate of leftovers for whoever isn't home and they eat it later. We don't stick a thermometer in it to make sure it's at the correct temperature until they get home. We prepare food for friends and family without wearing gloves or hairnets, etc. Restaurants here can't serve eggs with runny yolks or beef cooked less than medium, but we do it in our homes all the time. When dealing with public health and liability, the stakes are a little higher and the rules a little stricter. No doubt there are states with guidelines for public swimming facilities regarding cya, there are many more with guidelines for TDS. Here, a public pool is shut down if the TDS are too high, but no parameters for cya. I can't remember the exact figures, I'd have to look, but bleach sends TDS through the roof. While someone might want to see me as a champion of dichlor, I'm actually just trying to champion common sense. One can't cause hysteria over cya while ignoring TDS. To be quite honest, I think bromine is the most logical sanitizer for spas. I don't use it because it makes me itch and my skin smells. Even though I don't use it, I think it's a great product.
-
Not using MPS could have resulted in a rise in your ph. MPS is acidic but MPS for spas is buffered to keep it more ph neutral.
You are making an unfounded assumption that does not hold true for all brands of MPS!
Is your alkalinity in the correct range? Dealers usually know if you will need ph increaser or decreaser based on your local water supply.
There are a lot more factors than this.....the simplest way to know if you need to raise or lower your pH is by testing it. If the pH is high you want to add acid. If it is low you want to check the TA first. If the TA is good then you want to aerate (turn on your jets and bubblers) to drive of CO2, which will cause the pH to rise. IF the TA is low then you can use pH increaser which raises both pH and TA.
We all introduce different things into our spas when soaking and with the different products we use. I put bleach in my spa for awhile and had really high ph that I couldn't lower. When using dichlor and mps I can easily maintain my ph in the correct range.
That is because both Dichlor and MPS are acidic. I suspect that your TA was too high and you never lowered it.
Rain should be acidic which would lower the ph in your spa.
Yet rain can aerate the water and this can cause pH to rise! Once again incomplete facts and only half the story!
Did your dealer sell you MPS test strips?
The MPS test strips are identical to the total chlorine test strips...they measure total oxidizer in the water.
These can help you ensure the correct level of mps is in your spa while utilizing a mineral system. Since you shocked with dichlor Sunday you probably had a nice chlorine residual in your spa in addition to the mps you added Monday. If your fc level was still very high it could effect your ph reading. I have a similiar set up. I use a mineral cartridge, ozonator, dichlor and mps. Overkill? Maybe. I get all my supplies at cost which is nice. I was suprised to see that the markup on the N2 cartridge was only $6.00 after seeing it discussed that they were perhaps snake oil sold only to boost profits.
I sell the N2 carts where I work and believe me, if your dealer has only a $6 markup on them he is either selling them at a very low price or paying way too much for them!!!!!!
FYI, I've gone up to 5 days after shocking with dichlor and still had a free chlorine residual while running my ozonator 24 hours a day. Happy soaking.
HOW high is your CYA right now?
Hi Waterbear
Just tested it for you using the aquachek yellow strips
PH - between 72 - 78
FC - 0
Alk - closer to the 120 than the 80
CYA- 30-50
I don't have a strip for measuring the MPS even though after just reading the small print that came with the Freshwater continuous silver ion sanitizer I found out I should be testing for it. So I just order two boxes of them, since I'm really into testing and having fun with it.
I do have a question that has been bugging me, if I keep adding the 5 tbsp of Dichlor every 5 days or weekly how long will it be before the CYA is at the high level?
(Note: I messed up and thought after reading the strips and seeing the ideal range for the FC ppm should be for a in the 3-5 zone. Mine being at zero I keeping dumping in more Dichlor I did this for 2 days before I called the dealer and asked him about it. So I ended up adding 10 tbsp that I didn't need.)
Is it possible to substitute bleach as I've read some people are doing for the Dichlor or will that interfere with the silver ion thing? Or can I alternate Dichlor then bleach so my ph doesn't get whacked or does that happen?
Is it possible to get the CYA so high that my pool isn't sanitized? Will I have to change the water sooner than 4 months if it does hit that high cya mark?
Sorry for all the questions but I'd like to keep the water in as long as possible before having to change it, my husband does the spa cleaning and if we have to change it every 2 or 3 months he might not be too happy.
Thanks for all the help.
Spa Mom
La La
It's a good idea to remove your mineral cartridge when shocking with chlorine. The beads are made to dissolve slowly and the high levels of chlorine can make the process speed up and the beads will clump together prematurely. How often you change your water depends on your useage. When you get used to things you'll know instinctively when it's time. For lack of a better word, your water will seem thick. We use ours 9 times a week for an hour at a time, so we drain at the 2-3 month mark, closer to 2 months. If you are only shocking with dichlor you aren't adding nearly as much as those of us who use it daily. We don't have any problems with it, so you shouldn't either. If you use bleach you definately need to watch your ph, mine shot through the roof. Shocking with bleach is a much better alternative to dosing with it daily and using it as your primary sanitizer which I've found is a big no no. I prefer not to use it in my spa period. If you want to go that route, you might want to use a liquid chlorine product from a pool store for shocking. Bleach strength can vary based on manufacturer and type. Water changes aren't so bad, except when it's really cold. It sounds like you have a helpful dealer which is great. Happy soaking.
-
if the spa seems "off'. Hazy, cloudy, smell, feels weird. You are relying on the mineral stick to sanitize the spa.
Is this the Yellow Stick you put in the Filter?
Yes Roger, that's it.
-
Tiny,
Let's look at the facts here....you had problems balancing your spa except when you were using dichlor so you needed to justify that dichlor was the only way to santize a spa. IF your spa has an ozonator you won't be able to maintain a FC residual if the ozone generates all the time (which many of the cheaper units do).You got your dealer to make a kamakazie visit and drive chemgeek away and then disappear and now you are the dichlor champion and try to defend you postition on very weak evidence. I will gladly take your dealer on one on one with the chemistry and I DO work in the industry!
Dichlor is NOT the only chlorine source for spas. Overstabililization is real. Most of the recommendations are still based on the flawed Pinellas County study but the effects of CYA were actually know before this. Do you think there is a reason that CYA lowers ORP readings (or am I over your head right now?)
IF you don't want anyone answering your posts I have an easy solution....just don't post!
I also noticed that you have been a memeber here since only last september yet you are averaging over 100 posts a month!!!!! Something to think about....perhaps you need a hobby!
Fact 1: My dealer has never been on this forum. My dealer has no idea that I ever put bleach in my spa and I plan to keep it that way. Do you suggest I call him up and give him information that will void my warranty?
Fact 2: I don't respond to bullies nor do I run from them. I will post on this forum how every many times I choose. After this post, however, I will not respond to your childish lies or insults.
Fact 3: If chemgeek chose to take his ball and go home, that's his decision. That has nothing to do with me. Grow up.
Question 1: How many times a month have you posted on this and many other forums? Do you need a hobby? Maybe we could find one together.
Question 2: If I am the champion of dichlor does that make you the champion dichlor basher? Wouldn't that be the pot calling the kettle black?
Question 3: Am I over your head right now if I work for a pool company that has been in business for 26 years and does 5 million a year in business? Have you tested enough water to gross 5 mil a year? We design and build internationally award winning pools. While we don't sell chemicals or portable spas, I have access to numerous cpo's (is that over your head?), nspi trained professionals and countless people in the pool & spa business.
Question 4: Could you please show me the quote where I stated that dichlor is the only way to sanitize a spa. Perhaps I'm sleep typing.
Question 5: Are you a hypocrit? Maybe I am wrong, but you being so upset that someone drove away chemgeek and then telling me not to post anymore sounds a tad hypocritical.
Finally, I do not mind if mature people respond to posts in regards to water chemistry, which is the name of this forum. I see no point in someone responding with immature name calling or insults. If that's what I'm looking for there is a daycare right next door.
Nature2 Cartridge Location
in Hot Tub Water Chemistry
Posted
When we were spa shopping we ran into that. I believe it was Sundance spas. They just toss the cartridge in the filter compartment.