fourrunner72

Well it all boils down to wether or not the circ pump is pushing water. Is there water coming out from the bottom drain? If not that is why the power light is flashing. You may be able to clear the air pocket in the pump by turning the breaker on...let the pump try to run for 10 seconds or so, if it doesn't push water turn it off and on again....let it run for 10 seconds,,,etc. SOmetimes it takes 10-15 tries before it clears the air bubble and starts up. Other times it just won't clear and you have to manually bleed the air out of the circ pump by slightly removing the hose from the from of the pump until the air burps out. Thanks for the reply Dan! Water comes out when I take the cap off either of the external drains (so can we assume the pump is pushing water?)...As for the floor of the spa, it takes a little bit but bubbles do come out (I assume that is the ozonator working). I have not gotten in yet to see if the heater is on. I noticed that when I cycle power, sometimes it takes longer before it shuts off, but it still shuts off. As for your other suggestion, I will give it a try..thanks, Jeff When you filled it, where did you put your hose? Did you clean your filters? What technique? Have you tried running without filters? Sorry for piggy-backing on the thread...thought it was related because of the blinking red & HotSpring. I put the hose in the gray filter pipe when i filled it, but I can't remember if the hose may have slipped out or not. I cleaned the filters by removing, hosing down and replacing. I thought running without filters was a no-no? Won't it damage the spa? I tried it with filters removed...same issue...Maybe the circulation pump isn't working...not sure how to know for sure. Cycling power hasn't helped yet. I guess that just leaves bleeding the air out manually.

Well it all boils down to wether or not the circ pump is pushing water. Is there water coming out from the bottom drain? If not that is why the power light is flashing. You may be able to clear the air pocket in the pump by turning the breaker on...let the pump try to run for 10 seconds or so, if it doesn't push water turn it off and on again....let it run for 10 seconds,,,etc. SOmetimes it takes 10-15 tries before it clears the air bubble and starts up. Other times it just won't clear and you have to manually bleed the air out of the circ pump by slightly removing the hose from the from of the pump until the air burps out. Thanks for the reply Dan! Water comes out when I take the cap off either of the external drains (so can we assume the pump is pushing water?)...As for the floor of the spa, it takes a little bit but bubbles do come out (I assume that is the ozonator working). I have not gotten in yet to see if the heater is on. I noticed that when I cycle power, sometimes it takes longer before it shuts off, but it still shuts off. As for your other suggestion, I will give it a try..thanks, Jeff When you filled it, where did you put your hose? Did you clean your filters? What technique? Have you tried running without filters? Sorry for piggy-backing on the thread...thought it was related because of the blinking red & HotSpring. I put the hose in the gray filter pipe when i filled it, but I can't remember if the hose may have slipped out or not. I cleaned the filters by removing, hosing down and replacing. I thought running without filters was a no-no? Won't it damage the spa?

Well it all boils down to wether or not the circ pump is pushing water. Is there water coming out from the bottom drain? If not that is why the power light is flashing. You may be able to clear the air pocket in the pump by turning the breaker on...let the pump try to run for 10 seconds or so, if it doesn't push water turn it off and on again....let it run for 10 seconds,,,etc. SOmetimes it takes 10-15 tries before it clears the air bubble and starts up. Other times it just won't clear and you have to manually bleed the air out of the circ pump by slightly removing the hose from the from of the pump until the air burps out. Thanks for the reply Dan! Water comes out when I take the cap off either of the external drains (so can we assume the pump is pushing water?)...As for the floor of the spa, it takes a little bit but bubbles do come out (I assume that is the ozonator working). I have not gotten in yet to see if the heater is on. I noticed that when I cycle power, sometimes it takes longer before it shuts off, but it still shuts off. As for your other suggestion, I will give it a try..thanks, Jeff

Hi... I have a 2008 HotSpring Vanguard I just did a drain and refill and now I have the following issue: The spa & jets were working for a good half hour or so (when I was first circulating the new chemicals)...but, after turning off the jets the next time I came home I noticed the blinking red light and the water had never heated. Now, I notice that if I only power up the 20A, the spa stays on but if I power up the 30A (which kicks in the heater) the spa turns off after EXACTLY ONE MINUTE and has the blinking red. The dealer says it is probably air bubbles and says it will not be under warranty. Does this sound right to you guys? How do they know it is not the heater tripping something? Is it worth trying to drain the tub and refill again prior to paying for a service? Anything else to try? I tied draining some water out the slow drain while pumping new water into the filter pipe but that didn't work (not sure how long I need to do that though). Thanks! Jeff

Here is what my dealer replied with: "IF YOU ADD THE CALCIUM WITH THE PH ANCHOR THE CALCIUM WILL JUST BECOME A LIQUID AND IT CAN HARDEN ON YOUR FILTERS AND IN THE LINES." so I plan to leave my calcium alone...I think the bottle of pH anchor has extra precautions or extra steps to take when your calcium was way too high to begin with....i'm not sure what mine was prior to pH anchor...I plan to check my tap water tonight.

pH Anchor is a phosphate buffer for locking in pH, but that precipitates calcium phosphate so lowers calcium hardness considerably (i.e. softens the water). Having low calcium or a negative saturation index by itself is not corrosive to metal though this is controversial. Generally, corrosion is caused from higher oxidizer levels and lower pH so one could argue that having a stronger pH buffer stabilizes pH more even locally to prevent corrosion. The presence of phosphates themselves tends to inhibit corrosion and in fact is added to some municipal water supplies for that reason -- my tap water has 300-500 ppb phosphates for that reason. In general, I only say you have to have higher calcium hardness (CH) levels when there is exposed plaster/gunite/grout and to a lesser extent fiberglass (for the gelcoat) or if one wants to reduce foaming. Richard Thanks Richard...makes sense.

I found this quote on the product's website: "For an even easier way to perfectly balanced spa water, use Spa Essentials® pH Anchor. pH Anchor helps adjust the pH to its proper range and hold it there for up to two months. There is no need to test for and adjust calcium hardness levels when using pH Anchor." Can anyone explain to me why there is no need to test for and adjust calcium hardness levels when using pH Anchor? I understand that pH anchor "removes dissolved calcium and softens of the water" but I was also under the impression that if the water was too soft it could be harmful to the spa equipment. Is the assumption that since pH is balanced, soft water no longer is harmful?

I assume if you are standing on a non-conductive mat, you don't feel the shock when touching the water? this is why i asked about the copper bonding grid on another thread...it is supposed to prevent situations like this and is required by my town (under the paved walkways around the spa). The grid is bonded to the spa. But we were told we could alternatively use non-conductive mats around the spa...went with the grid option.

Is it just me, or do the Dimension One jets protrude from the shell and dig into one's back? I found it very uncomfortable....just my opinion. I prefer spas that have the jets recessed into the shell. I remember being comfortable in a Marquis, Clearwater, Caldera...but for various reasons had narrowed it down to Hot Spring Vanguard and Caldera Niagara. My wife didn't like the Clearwater cabinet colors...so that was ruled out quickly... I went with the Vanguard because when I wet tested the Caldera I was put off by all of the diverting going on...it seemed the spa was struggling to provide enough power to all the jets at once (no matter what I did with the diverters). Even still, the Caldera was a close second, but the Vanguard had numerous positives for us, as well as the quality of the dealership. Good luck! Jeff

Is important, but hard to determine the efficiency without measuring power usage. Your test would bypass the need for a meter quite nicely as a measure of insulation efficiency. And if we had an accurate (or even approximate) measure of water volume in the spa, we can adjust the figures to make them comparable (though I'm not sure how to adjust for differences in ambient temperature. Anybody?) Fourrunner, I think it sounds like a terrific fall project! Tom If anybody is curious, the formula for heat loss is E = Mc(t2 - t1)/h, where E = energy given off in cooling M = mass of spa in kg (easy to covert from US gallons) c = the specific heat capacity of water (4.2 kJ/L) t2 = final temperature in Celsius (equivalent of say 80F) t1 = initial temperature as above (to 100F) h = the cooling time in hours. This will give results as negative numbers (energy loss). A spa that lost 3674 kJ/h would be better insulated than one that lost 6347 kJ/h (to pull numbers at random). Thanks Tom, Your equation looks awesome...should make this test much easier. I will run it on my brand new HS Vanguard this fall and post the results. It might be difficult getting people to purposely cool off their spas, but it would be great to finally get valid comparisons between those 3K, 5K, 8K and 10K spas! We could also learn the effect of ambient temperature on the spa energy-loss rate by re-running the test each month as the temps continue to drop. P.S. Don't some spas display the internal temp? If not, maybe someone can recommend a cheap probe that can be snaked under the cover and into the middle of the spa water, thus removing the need to disturb the cover/water during the test. Jeff

Sounds like a fine idea, easy for anyone to do in his back yard! Couple of points: 1. Define "cold day". For somebody in Florida, that might be 40F. For a Canadian, that might be -30F. "Cold day" is just a bit too vague. You can see how differences in interpretation could completely obscure some significant differences 2. To make this work, you'd have to specify an ambient temperature and also specify windless conditions. 3. How often do we lift the cover to see if the temp is at 100F? Let's say every 30 minutes?? 4. Would a spa that heated quickly due to a powerful heater (rather than good insulation) necessarily represent the best energy efficiency? ( I have my own answer to that, but think about it). The 'cool down' time might be a better indicator of insulation quality. 1 & 2. Good point...since we all can't control the weather, including wind, we could mention that day's avg temp and wind chill (or speed?) along with the results Even a test like this when it is 70 degrees out, is still interesting data. 3. Another good point...30 min sounds good, and if the spa overshot the temp goal, then we could interpolate the data back to what it would have likely been for 100 degrees or 80 degrees. Or just submit what happened (e.g. went from 76 to 101 in 3 hours, 30 minutes @ 50 degrees ambient) 4. Heater A is weak and spa takes twice as long to heat versus Heater B is strong and heats spa twice as fast....would all come down to power draw of the spa while heating. Obviously that information is critical but I would venture to guess that the time that the heaters are on is critical and the power draw difference is less critical dollars-wise. I could be wrong...Well, we could certainly take the heater totally out of the equation by measuring cool down time (with cover and without cover), but will that tell us how efficiently the spa can heat up...not sure...seems important

I'm an engineer, but not this kind! Was just thinking that the following would be a good test of insulation, and overall quality of the spa, without the use of meters or analyzing the electric bill. 1. How long does it take to heat the spa from 80 to 100 degrees on a cold day with the cover on. 2. How long does it take for the spa to go from 100 back to 80 with the cover off and heater off? 3. Repeat 1 and 2 with jets on. Obviously the power draw of the spa in general is separable data worth knowing (e.g. while heating, while not heating, jets on, jets off, etc.) Of course the quality of the heater will be a factor for #1, but that is still a fair test. I would think poorly insulated spas would take forever to heat up, therefore drawing more power. And, poorly insulated spas would cool off quicker, thus needing the heater to run more often. Stating the obvious I know, but isn't this a valid (and easy) test for everyone to do and report back data on? Disclaimer: I didn't get my first spa delivered yet, soon it will be....thus I am a NEWBIE. Thanks, Jeff

-------------- not according to this: http://www.hopewelltwp.org/dca%20equipoten...ding%20grid.pdf thanks for the well wishes...p.s. I noticed you were a Clearwater expert...when is Clearwater going to come out with more paneling options? My wife hated the gray or brown options and nixed my spa..lol...She wants mahogany...We could go with a Sundance Hawthorne....but has Sundance gotten past it's leak issues I read about? And the horsepower of their pumps are 40% that of Clearwater....Is 2hp enough?! Sorry, probably shouldn't have mixed topics...you can reply to me in private if you want...thanks, jeff

----------------------------------- Your comment about the voltage in the water vs. voltage of the ground/pavers is exactly the concern/reason for the "national" electrical code change. here is an article about what prompted it: http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/02..._02f_herzig.htm the bonding grid would be under the pavers, but everything metal above the pavers, including the spa, and mini-life guard stands (lol) would be bonded to it....it ensures the same voltage potential, so that if the ground gets charged up by some freak occurence, and the water gets charged up, you step out onto the same voltage i guess (i'm no expert)....same voltage, means nowhere for current to flow (?). NJ seems to be up on the changes and our governer put out a letter stating the paved walkways around hot tubs were still to be taken care of in regards to this... based on the lack of replies to this post, it seems the rest of the country is pretty lenient on it. enjoy the article!

What mats are you talking about? I have never heard this. Most spas the pumps, heater all have bonding wire that goes to the same lug were the bare ground wire get connected that runs back the the earth ground for the breaker panel. Can you give more info were or who is telling you this? What good would a mat or bonding grid do with a spa with a wooden or plastic base. I would check with your local codes, if it not required by them then forget about it This is from my town: "Bonding grid required under all paved surfaces around pool, to include concrete walkways and pavers. This requirement is for all pools and hot tubs." It is also in the electrical code. Using a nonconductive mat would avoid the requirement. The concern is about voltage gradients (?) between the spa and the surrounding area. I think there was an accident where the pool got charged up and a lifeguard was injured because her metal chair was only bonded on one side. I should just cut plywood pieces and see if that gets me around the inspector... The concern is apparently related to stepping out of the pool onto pavers or concrete.